TX - Botham Shem Jean, 26, killed when police officer entered his apartment, Dallas, Sept 2018 #3

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  • #501
That's my point. We don't know all the facts, yet some have already convicted her in their minds and don't care what really happened.



Some posters seem to have it dead set in their mind that she went to his apartment aiming to kill. I don’t think she did. And that stand your ground doesn’t apply here because she wasn’t in her apartment. IN HER MIND WHEN SHE PULLED THAT TRIGGER, she’s was in her apartment. Even if she wasn’t.. to HER, she was.
 
  • #502
We'll see how vigorously the prosecution wants to win this case.

That is why I believe at this time, an independent counsel and separate FEDERAL agency needs to investigate this. We have already seen how Dallas, Texas Rangers are dragging their collective feet on this investigation. The prosecution should bow out, due to conflict of interest.

The only way I believe that this will be a completely transparent and clear evaluation would be with federal investigators, and a federal prosecutor. Otherwise, it will just look like a coverup.
 
  • #503
Some posters seem to have it dead set in their mind that she went to his apartment aiming to kill. I don’t think she did. And that stand your ground doesn’t apply here because she wasn’t in her apartment. IN HER MIND WHEN SHE PULLED THAT TRIGGER, she’s was in her apartment. Even if she wasn’t.. to HER, she was.
I appreciate your POV Katerz, because it helps me expand my thinking. So thank you.
I agree that she didn't intend to go there to kill him. I do think, however, that she went there to warn him to keep the noise down. She reported him for noise that morning, right? I think things escalated, she shot him. Perhaps he was advancing towards her to throw her out of his apartment. Don't know, pure speculation.
However, I did want to say I agree she didn't go there with intent to kill.
 
  • #504
I appreciate your POV Katerz, because it helps me expand my thinking. So thank you.
I agree that she didn't intend to go there to kill him. I do think, however, that she went there to warn him to keep the noise down. She reported him for noise that morning, right? I think things escalated, she shot him. Perhaps he advancing towards her to throw her out of his apartment. Don't know, pure speculation.
However, I did want to say I agree she didn't go there with intent to kill.

My question is.. do we know for sure that it was HER that called in the complaint? Has the manager of the building shown records that it was Amber that reported the noise? Do we know yet if she lived alone?
 
  • #505
My question is.. do we know for sure that it was HER that called in the complaint? Has the manager of the building shown records that it was Amber that reported the noise? Do we know yet if she lived alone?

I don't. Anyone?
 
  • #506
Some posters seem to have it dead set in their mind that she went to his apartment aiming to kill. I don’t think she did. And that stand your ground doesn’t apply here because she wasn’t in her apartment. IN HER MIND WHEN SHE PULLED THAT TRIGGER, she’s was in her apartment. Even if she wasn’t.. to HER, she was.
I haven't seen anyone post that they thought she went to that apt with the express purpose of killing him.
She wasn't IN 'her' apt when she fired the first shot---she was in the doorway, hence the gun shot residue on the door frame. And it didn't get there because she was running out of 'her' apt because she feared for her life She was advancing in after seeing him.
 
  • #507
I don't. Anyone?

I’m just askin because maybe it wasn’t her that complained. Maybe it was someone who shares her apartment with her. She worked a “15” hour work day and supposedly got off work around what, 9-9:30pm? So she was at work at 6-6:30 am? Would the apartment managers be there that early to get a complaint that early?
 
  • #508
My question is.. do we know for sure that it was HER that called in the complaint? Has the manager of the building shown records that it was Amber that reported the noise? Do we know yet if she lived alone?
She reportedly had a dog.
 
  • #509
I’m just askin because maybe it wasn’t her that complained. Maybe it was someone who shares her apartment with her. She worked a “15” hour work day and supposedly got off work around what, 9-9:30pm? So she was at work at 6-6:30 am? Would the apartment managers be there that early to get a complaint that early?
Good point. Don't know. Anyone?
 
  • #510
  • #511
This is such a sad and emotional case all around. A beautiful man dead and a young female Officer's career (presumably) over. There are no "winners" here, and it's pulling at our hearts and guts. Thanks to all for staying steady as she goes. It's not easy with a case this extreme and sad. If only....if only...
Not only her career but some years of her life. It is sad. But it will teach her a huge lesson when she returns to civilian life. She'll pay more attention to things. I am not going to lie though, I don't want to sound disrespectful to Jean but I believe that it would have probably happened to someone else if it wasn't him. I don't know the girl or how she is, so I will make a general statement. With the way our country has already been somewhat divided, the police force is the last place we need scared police officers. Not everyone is meant to be a cop and that's okay. But that's something that our country needs to take a look at as a whole. Generally speaking.
 
  • #512
I live in my own special witty bitty world where everybody is me and knows me well. I ask you, HOW do you know what was in her mind?

Some posters seem to have it dead set in their mind that she went to his apartment aiming to kill. I don’t think she did. And that stand your ground doesn’t apply here because she wasn’t in her apartment. IN HER MIND WHEN SHE PULLED THAT TRIGGER, she’s was in her apartment. Even if she wasn’t.. to HER, she was.
 
  • #513
No, as far as I can tell, nothing has been conclusively reported on who made the noise complaint.

So if that’s the case, why is it okay for people to say with certainty that she complained about the noise earlier, so she went to kill him because he was too loud? There’s no evidence that’s been shown to us so far that she was the one who complained
 
  • #514
That's my point. We don't know all the facts, yet some have already convicted her in their minds and don't care what really happened.

I can speak for myself. I have been around this block for a long time. I feel like I have seen and read a lot. I believe she is guilty of 2nd degree murder or, at the very least, manslaughter based on the facts that I have read in the newspaper. Why?

Her story doesn't add up. She entered an apartment that had a red rug (she does not own one). We don't know about door open or pass key or whatever. However she open the door saw a man, shot twice and then went into the apartment to turn on the lights realizing that she had the wrong apartment. Who in the world would fire a weapon into a darkened room? It is reckless. And, to fire upon a person in a darkened room (if indeed it was so dark she couldn't see--but I am not convinced of that yet)? It is without regard for the person's life. People can argue that she thought she was being robbed. I can not get beyond the fact that she shoots thinking there is an intruder---then, without surveilling the scene, putting on her flak vest, she enters a darkened apartment, possibly becoming a victim herself as she would have had no idea if there were one, two or three more people in there. It is non-sensical. (The apartment building is so secure that the police needed a woman walking a dog to let them in after she called.) She should have not entered the apartment at all, watched the door, and called for back-up. The potential robber had no where to go as she lived on the third floor. If they/he/she fled, she would have been in the brightly lit hallway and able to apprehend them.

I for one care deeply about what happened. This woman is a danger to herself and others. She killed a man based on faulty thinking and actions. I think we know enough about what happened. Very often, as sleuthers, we look at social media and make judgments. Her media presence was scrubbed almost immediately and what has been found talks openly about challenging people to make her day by not "respecting her" or her badge. In any case I have ever participated in, those kinds of posts are seen as part of a character--I see this as part of her character and it is scary.

I don't live in Texas so the only place that I will be able to judge her is here. This for me is not about liberal, conservative or whatever. This for me is about a man who was murdered in his apartment, in his underwear, as he moved toward his door in his apartment that he paid for with rent. The killer took a life-- his promising life. I don't care if he was drunk, high, into kinky sex, eating cereal standing on his head on the furniture, sang too loud, walked too loud in the morning as he was in his home and he should have been safe there. She shot twice into his home. She provided little aid after she realized her mistake. She called her partner and got her ducks in a row. She killed him. And, she deserves to spend time in prison. Mr. Jean will never have the opportunity to do any of the things on his bucket list. After, she gets out of jail she can put her life together.

Oh, and, she has never said she was sorry or remorseful-- only created a story so she could limit her culpability.
 
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  • #515
The gunshot residue is on the door frame and in the kitchen. He wasn't coming toward her, she was advancing toward him. The sequence of the apt layout is: entryway, kitchen, living room. She shot from the entryway leaving GSR on the door frame and hit the living room wall. She then advanced and shot at him again, leaving GSR in the kitchen. That shot killed him.
She had no reason to fear for her life. She wasn't trapped in the apt., she was in the entryway, free to back out into the hallway with her drawn and loaded gun.

I have read every page from the very first thread but this is my first post on this case. I hope the bold print in the quote comes through in my reply. Amber, who is definitely the killer of Botham Jean, was not trapped ! And at that point she was not on duty - is it correct that although she was still wearing a uniform, she was for all intents and purposes NOT an officer, not operating under the authority of DPD at that point in time?

She totally could've (and should've) backed out into the hall and called for backup if she thought an intruder was in her apartment - don't get me started on the bright red rug and the self-closing door being ajar. It's all stories in my own opinion - just the fact that the story changed from the intial version should make a jury ask why. The truth stays the same, it never changes.

Background for my post -
We had a breakin when we lived in Florida - it was 1989 but I remember it like it was yesterday. I came home from work, opened the garage door to drive in and saw a chair from the kitchen table sitting in the middle of the garage floor with a single swim fin beside it (neither of which were in the garage when I had left for work) - and our two mint-green racing bikes were missing from the ceiling hooks.

Obviously someone had been there and no way to know if they still WERE inside - so I didn't go inside. I parked the car on the driveway and immediately went to the next-door neighbor's house - he was a strong guy who then went to the neighbor's house on the other side and grabbed that guy to go in with him to scope things out.

Those guys came out after looking the house over and finding nobody inside - saying "it's kids !" (as in, not professionals). All of the electronics were downstairs - nothing of value was obviously missing. Someone had made microwave pizza, bored some holes in the kitchen wall with a cordless screwdriver, stomped some Oreo cookies into the kitchen floor, ransacked some drawers upstairs - and stole some credit cards along with the bikes.

The police caught a couple of neighborhood kids in the woods that same afternoon while they were hiding the bikes - and one of them was wearing a pair of Tim's boardshorts and had one of the credit cards in the pocket. They had forced open a downstairs window to get inside - inexpensive new construction and we had only lived there for a few months.

So yeah - if you are Amber Guyger and you have an out, if you're not inside the apartment (and you supposedly have no way of knowing at that point if there is more than one intruder/assailant inside) - then wisdom would've been to just. . . not go in. But then there would still have been a noisemaker living overhead from her.

Yeah, I don't buy for one second that she feared for her life and had no choice but to use deadly force and kill him. There were so many other options. And the self-closing door would have locked her out of Botham Jean's apartment while she was pacing on the phone - so when exactly did she do CPR?
 
  • #516
So if that’s the case, why is it okay for people to say with certainty that she complained about the noise earlier, so she went to kill him because he was too loud? There’s no evidence that’s been shown to us so far that she was the one who complained

I can't pretend to know her motive. However, even based on her own story, she killed him with no cause, in his home. If she did complain that makes it all that much curiouser that she ended up in his apartment, firing on him, no?
 
  • #517
But we don't know she didn't go there intentionally for some reason... and if she did and she may have to drop off some weed or "talk" to him about noise or who knows what?; the Code of Silence, Thin Blue Line along with a barrage of smoke and mirrors will likely assure the people never know and the mess that has officially been made, starting with her being released from the scene, well it all adds up and most have pretty good BS meters.

I certainly don't put it past her to have actually planned and premeditated the whole thing and hopefully she didn't, but, if she did it was brilliant since she managed only to be scathed with a Manslaughter charge.

The chain of unreasonable errors and alledged innocent mistakes the people are expected to believe, and not just hers, now reaches to hades and back and to the point that any and all should be beyond just merely skeptical

I haven't seen anyone post that they thought she went to that apt with the express purpose of killing him.
She wasn't IN 'her' apt when she fired the first shot---she was in the doorway, hence the gun shot residue on the door frame. And it didn't get there because she was running out of 'her' apt because she feared for her life She was advancing in after seeing him.
 
  • #518
So if that’s the case, why is it okay for people to say with certainty that she complained about the noise earlier, so she went to kill him because he was too loud? There’s no evidence that’s been shown to us so far that she was the one who complained
It’s okay for people to have their own opinions. Don’t you agree?
 
  • #519
So if that’s the case, why is it okay for people to say with certainty that she complained about the noise earlier, so she went to kill him because he was too loud? There’s no evidence that’s been shown to us so far that she was the one who complained
I posted that speculation early upthread. It makes the most sense to me. However, you are right. None of us know the facts yet, but I sure hope at some point we will....but maybe we never will. Again, I emphasize that everything I post is amateur speculation and opinion. But that's what we are here for. On other threads we do much more than speculate. We research, do predictive modeling, mapping; other talented folks contribute incredible forensic sketches or help identify unidentified deceased. This forum has contributed and done alot of good. This thread is more about speculation on how the case will resolve.
 
  • #520
After reading posts that proclaim versions of "I always believe the cop" and "Amber is innocent" I feel free to offer my own opinion.

Guyger is a killer. If she intentionally went to Botham's apartment (as I believe) she is a murderer.

IIRC, not only did he have a bright red rug, she had no rug. Stepping on the rug would be another opportunity for her to turn around and go home. One of many. If she didn't know where she was...

moo
 
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