TX - Police respond to reports of shooter at Santa Fe High School, 18 May 2018

[Jennifer17]

I disagree with you but I have the view that punishment should include a chance to become a better person. I don't think that vengeance does anything for society. He should be punished, severely but released when he is no longer a threat.

 

[Strangeworld]

I disagree with you but I have the view that punishment should include a chance to become a better person. I don't think that vengeance does anything for society. He should be punished, severely but released when he is no longer a threat.

Definition of Vengeance -punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong

Would you be comfortable with ALL mass murderers, psychopaths, serial killers, etc to be released into society? If vengeance does nothing for society, would there not be a case for releasing all of these types of criminals if they no longer appear to be a threat? And how would you define 'no longer a threat'? Because right now I don't know anyone on the planet that can say someone fits this concept with certainty. What side of risk would it fall on?

On a side note, vengeance is not my main reason for wanting to see him imprisoned for life. It is for the safety of others. Very different.

 

[cybervampira]

Police response to Texas school shooting remains unclear

Santa Fe High School had conducted active shooter drills, armed police officers patrolled the hallways and students went through a scare in February after a false report of a campus gunman.

But in the aftermath of the deadliest public school shooting in Texas history, early witness accounts and recordings from emergency dispatch describe a 30-minute nightmare as the real thing unfolded last week, even as authorities continued to keep details close Sunday.

Among the biggest unknowns is when the confrontation began at the high school outside Houston between police and 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, who authorities say opened fire on an art lab with a shotgun and .38 caliber handgun shortly after the first bell Friday morning. Pagourtzis wasn't hit in the attack even though officials have described him engaging in a drawn-out firefight with police.

[...]

The length of the attack appeared to go on longer than most mass shootings that last around eight minutes, said Ben Tisa, a former FBI agent. He said that could make the Santa Fe shooting unusual.

"It would be unless they couldn't find the guy and they had to hunt him," said Tisa, who now does tactical training in California.

Although officials have praised a swift response, it remains unclear just how quickly police got to the art lab on the 1,400-student campus. Galveston County Judge Mark Henry, the county's top administrator, has said police exchanged rounds with Pagourtzis "for quite a while" before he surrendered a half-hour after the first reports of a shooter on campus.

"They said there was a lot of firepower and a lot of rounds exchanged," Henry said.

Officials have not yet released 911 tapes but on emergency dispatch recordings from Galveston County, captured by Broadcastify.com, a female voice is heard saying "more shots fired" about 10 minutes after authorities first received reports of gunfire. Five minutes later, a male voice says the suspect is "possibly going to be barricaded" with additional reports of shooting a few minutes after that.

"He's actively shooting. He's in the art room. We've got, we've got shots fired right now. We need you all up here," a male voice says at what appears to be about 15 minutes after the shooting began.

Henry said investigators were still working on the timeline and Tisa cautioned that emergency dispatch traffic doesn't always reflect real time. One Santa Fe school police officer who responded to the attack was shot and remained in critical condition Sunday, according to the University of Texas Medical Branch.

[...]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-po...-shooting-remains-unclear-20180520-story.html

 

[Jennifer17]

Definition of Vengeance -punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong

Would you be comfortable with ALL mass murderers, psychopaths, serial killers, etc to be released into society? If vengeance does nothing for society, would there not be a case for releasing all of these types of criminals if they no longer appear to be a threat? And how would you define 'no longer a threat'? Because right now I don't know anyone on the planet that can say someone fits this concept with certainty. What side of risk would it fall on?

On a side note, vengeance is not my main reason for wanting to see him imprisoned for life. It is for the safety of others. Very different.

He is 17 years old. Still by most legal standards, a child.

 

[Jennifer17]

Police response to Texas school shooting remains unclear

Santa Fe High School had conducted active shooter drills, armed police officers patrolled the hallways and students went through a scare in February after a false report of a campus gunman.

But in the aftermath of the deadliest public school shooting in Texas history, early witness accounts and recordings from emergency dispatch describe a 30-minute nightmare as the real thing unfolded last week, even as authorities continued to keep details close Sunday.

Among the biggest unknowns is when the confrontation began at the high school outside Houston between police and 17-year-old Dimitrios Pagourtzis, who authorities say opened fire on an art lab with a shotgun and .38 caliber handgun shortly after the first bell Friday morning. Pagourtzis wasn't hit in the attack even though officials have described him engaging in a drawn-out firefight with police.

[...]

The length of the attack appeared to go on longer than most mass shootings that last around eight minutes, said Ben Tisa, a former FBI agent. He said that could make the Santa Fe shooting unusual.

"It would be unless they couldn't find the guy and they had to hunt him," said Tisa, who now does tactical training in California.

Although officials have praised a swift response, it remains unclear just how quickly police got to the art lab on the 1,400-student campus. Galveston County Judge Mark Henry, the county's top administrator, has said police exchanged rounds with Pagourtzis "for quite a while" before he surrendered a half-hour after the first reports of a shooter on campus.

"They said there was a lot of firepower and a lot of rounds exchanged," Henry said.

Officials have not yet released 911 tapes but on emergency dispatch recordings from Galveston County, captured by Broadcastify.com, a female voice is heard saying "more shots fired" about 10 minutes after authorities first received reports of gunfire. Five minutes later, a male voice says the suspect is "possibly going to be barricaded" with additional reports of shooting a few minutes after that.

"He's actively shooting. He's in the art room. We've got, we've got shots fired right now. We need you all up here," a male voice says at what appears to be about 15 minutes after the shooting began.

Henry said investigators were still working on the timeline and Tisa cautioned that emergency dispatch traffic doesn't always reflect real time. One Santa Fe school police officer who responded to the attack was shot and remained in critical condition Sunday, according to the University of Texas Medical Branch.

[...]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-po...-shooting-remains-unclear-20180520-story.html

BBM, And people really think that an armed teacher could take him out when a swat team exchanged fire with him for quite some time?

 

[cybervampira]

BBM, And people really think that an armed teacher could take him out when a swat team exchanged fire with him for quite some time?

Right? What are they thinking? Teachers deal with it Bruce Willis style? SMH.

 

[Strangeworld]

He is 17 years old. Still by most legal standards, a child.

Who killed 10 people, gunned them down. There's no logic IMO in releasing him ever. But everyone has their own views.

 

[kkdj]

Who killed 10 people, gunned them down. There's no logic IMO in releasing him ever. But everyone has their own views.

omg. I can't imagine ever releasing him into society. Something is very wrong with this young man. I can't imagine anyone being ok with him living next door to them, not ever.

 

[KaaBoom]

How would it be possible for victims to be removed if perp was preventing access to the victims? The claim that it took swat 30 minutes to get there isn't accurate. The whole episode lasted 30 minutes. Apparently he was exchanging gunfire with cops during some of these 30 minutes. Amazingly he managed to avoid getting shot which only shows how difficult it is to apprehend an armed shooter.

"Although officials have praised a swift response, it remains unclear just how quickly police got to the art lab on the 1,400-student campus. Galveston County Judge Mark Henry, the county's top administrator, has said police exchanged rounds with Pagourtzis "for quite a while" before he surrendered a half-hour after the first reports of a shooter on campus."
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/...onse-to-texas-school-shooting-remains-unclear

I have never said it took SWAT 30 minutes to respond. I don't know why you keep saying that. You are not even reading what I'm actually saying.

The FBI has already determined that it takes SWAT too long to respond to be effective in an active shooter situation. So first responding officers should not wait for SWAT, but rather engage the shooter themselves. That's what the first two responding officers did, in this case. But when one of them got shot, they decided to retreat and wait for SWAT anyway. Which probably cost innocent lives.

 

[Jax49]

OK, so one did, and he got shot. Then the rest waited for SWAT to arrive 30 minutes later. While the gunman was terrorizing and shooting students. Then after it was over they pointed guns at the victims, rather than trying to help those who had been shot. I'm sorry, I'm not impressed.

bbm

OK

 

[KaaBoom]

Requiring all gun owners to secure them is part of being a responsible gun owner and should be a law, However, I don't agree with holding a gun owner personally responsible for a crime committed if the gun was secured and was stolen. Just like it would be wrong to hold a car owner responsible for an accident that happened with a locked and stolen vehicle.

You are responsible if your car is stolen. If somebody steals your car and causes a wreck, your liability insurance will have to pay for the damage. If gun owners can't accept responsibility for their guns, then they shouldn't have them. If the gun is stolen, then it was not secure.

 

[KaaBoom]

I wonder if it would be possible to try the cases separately. Like, can he get 40 years per murder? Consecutively, not concurrently?

No, I don't believe so. It's all part of the same crime. It's unconstitutional for someone to be tried more than once for the same crime. In some cases the judge can make the sentence consecutive instead of concurrent.

 

[KaaBoom]

I have no idea how that works in Louisiana, but I do think that with young men like this there is a chance that he could serve his time and never break another law again. I do think that his immaturity has something to do with this. Mind you, I can be objective about it, but if I were one of those parents, I would want the very worst for him.

I agree. I doubt he will ever get out, but if he does, then I don't have a problem with that. So long as he has served a very substantial amount of time. He should be pretty old before he is released. Releasing him in only a few years would be a really bad idea.

 

[jjenny]

I have never said it took SWAT 30 minutes to respond. I don't know why you keep saying that. You are not even reading what I'm actually saying.

The FBI has already determined that it takes SWAT too long to respond to be effective in an active shooter situation. So first responding officers should not wait for SWAT, but rather engage the shooter themselves. That's what the first two responding officers did, in this case. But when one of them got shot, they decided to retreat and wait for SWAT anyway. Which probably cost innocent lives.

This is what you posted, claiming that after SWAT were called, it took them 30 minutes to arrive.

"Quote Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
OK, so one did, and he got shot. Then the rest waited for SWAT to arrive 30 minutes later. While the gunman was terrorizing and shooting students. Then after it was over they pointed guns at the victims, rather than trying to help those who had been shot. I'm sorry, I'm not impressed."

 

[jjenny]

I disagree with you but I have the view that punishment should include a chance to become a better person. I don't think that vengeance does anything for society. He should be punished, severely but released when he is no longer a threat.

Really? Who decides when he is no longer a threat? Especially considering most people around him so far claimed they didn't even know he was a threat this time around.

 

[KaaBoom]

This is what you posted, claiming that after SWAT were called, it took them 30 minutes to arrive.

"Quote Originally Posted by KaaBoom View Post
OK, so one did, and he got shot. Then the rest waited for SWAT to arrive 30 minutes later. While the gunman was terrorizing and shooting students. Then after it was over they pointed guns at the victims, rather than trying to help those who had been shot. I'm sorry, I'm not impressed."

Thank you I stand corrected. But I believe my statement is still correct. The officer was shot soon after the call come in. The incident ended about 30 minutes later. Though it might have been a little less than 30 minutes. I'll try to come up with an exact timeline.

 

[jjenny]

I don't have access to his psychiatric/psychological diagnoses (if any) so I can't answer that - depends on psychopathy and other factors. But many a criminal with psychopathy has fooled the psychiatric and psychological professions (I was part of that professional group so feel ok saying that). I would never want this individual walking amongst us again. I see his non-release as punishment for his crime, as well as future protection of society. Recidivism is a very real risk for any offender that needs to be carefully considered - is it worth risking another mass shooting or whatever devastating means we may have in the future for multiple murders? Is his life, regardless of psychosis, diagnoses etc worth more than those lives he may claim, based on past behaviour. My answer, no way!

If by chance he is a good guy who has made a very very bad decision, well that is how life goes. It's called consequences. We all must face them, regardless of the reasons behind our actions. Some decisions we make have limited impact on others, but some have disastrous consequences. It might mean he doesn't meet his potential or that he could have been a productive member of society, but that is what consequences are. His choice should mean that others get a choice too - to not run the risk of him grabbing a gun (or other means) and wiping out another group of people. Why should those who have made the decision to NOT commit high end violent crimes be forced to live in the same society where someone who has proven they are capable of such violence are given the right to exist?

Really? You think someone who deliberately killed 10 people could be a good man who made a very bad decision? I shudder to think what your definition of a bad man is.

 

[KaaBoom]

Really? You think someone who deliberately killed 10 people could be a good man who made a very bad decision? I shudder to think what your definition of a bad man is.

It's complicated. Most people who commit these type of crimes, do so because of mental illnesses. In some cases mental illness can be cured. In others it can been treated. People have committed serious crimes when they were young. Then served their time and went on to live productive lives.

 

[jjenny]

It's complicated. Most people who commit these type of crimes, do so because of mental illnesses. In some cases mental illness can be cured. In others it can been treated. People have committed serious crimes when they were young. Then served their time and went on to live productive lives.

What mental illness can be cured?

 

[KaaBoom]

What mental illness can be cured?

9 Damaging Myths about Mental Illness