UK UK - Andrew Gosden, 14, Doncaster, South Yorks, 14 Sep 2007 #2

  • #1,221
Do we think he wouldn’t have known that the school would have called to tell his parents he was absent? I can’t imagine he wouldn’t have known that. But then how absolutely wild that his parents really weren’t called due to a clerical error. What are the chances??? I would love to see how the person making the mistake made this mistake. Not just hear about it but see it. According to what I’ve heard and I don’t recall where, she called the kid’s parents listed above or below Andrew’s. Was this on a paper or a computer screen? Have the police ever taken a look at said paper or computer document to confirm this really could have happened the way they said?

I’m thinking back to when I was in high school in the 90’s. A friend and I used to change our grades in the teacher’s grade book in English class. We would erase our low grades and pencil in high grades.

Again with my wild ideas, but if it were me, knowing that parents are called when kids are absent, I absolutely would have messed with that document and changed the phone numbers or messed it up somehow so that my parents wouldn’t have gotten the call.

I think of Andrew as being a sweet boy who was smart and a rule-follower but he might have had an ornery side as well.

—————

Good thoughts you have about his uniform. I assumed he did that because it must have been his normal routine, but it makes sense that he might have planned to come home that evening and act like he did go to school, come home and change and then went back out. But then we are back to did he really not know that his parents would be called?

This is all so baffling. How does a 14 year old disappear forever?

He would've been in lessons when classmates would've had to give notes to form tutor explaining unauthorised absences.

That was the protocol when I was at school in the 2000s anyway. I presume his sister didn't quite have a 100% attendance so family would have to call up on days she was sick and so Andrew being a bit younger might've been at home and heard that.

Another frustrating element of the case but I'm not sure how much of the reality it would've changed.

For a start Andrew's parents were out and seems they only had a contact number for his house and no mobile numbers?

When I was giving school contact numbers in case of emergency I would give my house phone number, my Mum's mobile number and also a back up of my Grandmother's house phone number so having just one phone to contact seemed a bit lax to the school from me.

So in reality it was probably only about two hours lost as parents would've discovered the recorded message at just after 5pm opposed to 7pm when he didn't respond to calls to come down for dinner.

The London connection only came to light with the ticket office worker returning on the Monday and saying they'd served someone on the Friday morning matching Andrew's description so again not sure how realistic discovering he'd travelled down to London earlier than that was.

It would've been amazing if had been established by the Saturday evening Andrew had got off at XC and then CCTV is combed through but we know the investigation was miles off being that inquisitive.
 
  • #1,222
Of course music existed before the internet? That's precisely why I questioned how was Andrew listening to his favorite bands: did the parents bought him physical copies of all CDs? Did he listened them on a DISCMAN? Did he have a mp3 player? It's all about the access to technology and opportunities of connection. A 14-yo boy in 2007 would hardly be hearing his favorite bands on cassettes and records.

Also Ipod was coming out in 2004-05. Got one around that time anyway and linked it to itunes.

I completely agree. For someone with his interest in music it does seem bizarre he had no online presence or seemingly any interest in using the internet.

That is a very baffling element of the case all the background searches found no online presence in the months after.
 
  • #1,223
Also Ipod was coming out in 2004-05. Got one around that time anyway and linked it to itunes.

I completely agree. For someone with his interest in music it does seem bizarre he had no online presence or seemingly any interest in using the internet.

That is a very baffling element of the case all the background searches found no online presence in the months after.

I met a couple of people in real life through contacting them on MySpace and I think that was very popular with music lovers.
 
  • #1,224
Apologizes in advance for this long post… I’d like to share a few thoughts with you about the ‘grooming’ scenarios also, based on some research I’ve done for this and other cases.

LURING

First, there is some confusion over concepts such as ‘grooming’ and ‘luring’. You don’t necessarily need to groom a child to ‘lure’ that child somewhere. Random pedophiles might lure a 4-year-old from a playground into their car with the promise of candy, for example. That could be a crime of opportunity.

And if any child will do in this case, there were plenty of young teens who looked just like Andrew walking unattended around London back in 2007. If he decided to go to London by himself and there was no ‘groomer’ in his life, Andrew could have been unlucky to run into such a predator and was naively lured into a second location. So it's possible.

Bottom-line is: luring can be independent to grooming, and grooming might not involve any luring at all. In fact, most abuse cases resulting from grooming happen places the child would be going voluntarily and with the consent of their parents, who were oblivious of the threat.

GROOMING

Usually, a grooming process is a combination of kindness, attention, material enticement or special privilege that are expertly applied to earn a child’s trust and keep them in control. The child might not realize they’re being coerced or abused.

In the in-person grooming cases, such criminals might insert themselves into institutions that give them access to young boys, like church activities or scout’s clubs, or could just be adults in the community, like the manager in the local video store if the kid is a movie buff and has no one else to talk about this passion. Their families might also be groomed to trust this person.

That’s invariably the case in the extreme examples of sex trafficking, with criminals that are after a child not to fulfill their own fantasies, but that of potential customers. They target poor families from underprivileged communities in underdeveloped countries, swayed by the promise of a rich family in a first world country offering the kid a better life etc. The criminals don’t want to attract attention to themselves or to have the crime being immediately reported as a potential kidnapping.

ONLINE GROOMING

Nowadays, with smartphones in everybody’s hand, online grooming (as in a predator who never met the child in person) can escalate more quickly. You can target multiple victims at once, build an online friendship, then bring up the subject of sex, and the next thing you know the minor might be asked to send nude pictures etc. A creep might satisfy some of their sexual urges without even luring the kid to their place.

Back in 2007, even if Andrew had unlimited access to the internet in his home, technology was not that advanced, and the risks would be much higher. The kid could be using a shared home computer in the family’s living room, others might have access, taking and uploading a digital photo wasn’t as easy… And if the expectation of the groomer was to get this boy to meet them in person, there are way more accessible victims that don’t need to be convinced to take a train all the way from Doncaster.

WHAT ALL KINDS OF GROOMING HAVE IN COMMON

In-person grooming, online grooming and in person-grooming that also relies on online communications with the victim ALWAYS depend on the criminal dedicating a considerable amount of time to the child and/or their family. Such cases tend to lead to repeat sexual abuse – it’s not practical to put so much effort to abuse this child just once and then disappear with the kid.

Sexual abuse by a groomer leading to the child being murdered and the body being concealed is usually rare – unless the child threatens to tell or something. If Andrew lived in London and was just going about his day, with no major deviation from his routine, I believe any random criminal just luring him somewhere would be more probable than grooming. But I also came to entertain another scenario…

A DIFFERENT KIND OF GROOMING

So, another variable... Many, many, many boys that go through the hormones of puberty start experimenting with close friends and/or cousins around the same age. Touching each other, etc. It starts out of simple curiosity. One might be twelve, the other ten or eleven etc. Back in the day, there wasn’t such an unrestricted access to adult websites to feed a young teen’s imagination. You’d be surprised at what goes on in the stalls in a boy’s bathroom. Or how easy it is for misfit kids to bond in certain contexts that are not natural to them (a church, a boyish activity).

We know, for instance, that Andrew helped his mother run a kid’s club in their church in August 2007, one month before he went missing. Those clubs have kids up to the age of 10. If Andrew was in contact with these kids at 14, any 14-year-old could be in contact with him when Andrew was 10. Those church families are usually close, they could be a part of each other’s social circles.

An older boy who Andrew could have been experimenting with in the past could be living in London and back in Doncaster during the summer break to reconnect with Andrew through the church. They also could have met in other occasions, like the day Andrew came home late and said he chose to walk. (Maybe, the timing of Andrew leaving church and the boy scouts might have coincided with this other person moving out of Doncaster.)

A POSSIBLE, NOT SO ENTERTAINED THEORY

In this scenario, it could have been planned as an afternoon London, but the older boy made advancements that Andrew wasn’t receptive to, and the other person panicked with the possibility of Andrew telling on them etc (this person would already be in a whole world of troubles.)

This is just a theory, of course, and the circumstances may vary. But I believe that, for a possible relationship to get Andrew to London, this wouldn’t be a stranger on the internet and possibly not even an adult. I tend to believe it was someone closer in age, and I tend to believe the ‘foul play’ wasn’t that much premeditated. If this boy was killed, I believe the act might have happened inside a car to make it easier for the body to be moved without drawing too much attention.

To wrap this up: I believe a closer look in the Doncaster community and the families that were part of their Gosden's social activities could be productive in this case. Perhaps, even more so than an investigation based mostly in London. Maybe go over the criminal records of men who were in their late teens or early adulthood back in 2007 - this person could have been involved in some other crimes of a sexual nature.

This is all very interesting, thank you.

I think your final scenario feels possible. The plan could have been made at both ends, but for whatever reason, whoever Andrew was meeting in London was not someone he felt comfortable telling his parents about.

The question then is - why during the week? Why when he would be missing school? Surely, if you were the perpetrator, you would want that plan to take place at a time when he is least likely to be 'missed'. Since A had permission to travel to London alone, we've got to then assume that there was an event tied to the visit. The gig theory then becomes more likely, although perhaps he never made it to the event itself :(.
 
  • #1,225
I met a couple of people in real life through contacting them on MySpace and I think that was very popular with music lovers.

Myspace was huge between 2005-07 and was certainly the in thing for everyone at my school in sixth form at the time to create a profile on especially as we were all off to different uni's.

I remember looking at a few friends profiles just before the archive was tampered with around 2012 and thinking how basic it all looked compared to Facebook and Instagram which was just emerging as the dominant social network for sharing experiences.

Agree on the bands aspect. Andrew could've easily accessed a PC at school, gone on myspace, seen an event he liked the look of in London and made plans to go to it until something happened that prevented him making it.

Just one possibility if he genuinely wasn't accessing the net at home.
 
  • #1,226
Just a quick note on Andrew's apparent lack of Internet access and use of a mobile phone. Like others I do find it surprising if it truly is the case. However it does happen.

I have a friend in his mid 60s. Since retiring he spends a lot of time travelling the country watching football and cricket as sell as doing a lot of hiking. He's also a keen amateur military historian.

He's never learned to drive and living in a rural area relies on public transport and lifts etc from friends. You'd think with his activities he'd be nailed on to own a mobile phone and have Internet access. But you would be wrong. He has never owned a mobile phone and has never had an Internet connection in his entire life. You would think both would make his life easier for planning trips, doing research, booking places to stay, train tickets, working out hiking routes. But no he copes without either. He has a landline and that's it. He has no financial worries but just says he doesn't need either.
 
  • #1,227
The Internet and Facebook were taking off around 06-07. There's no way Andrew wasn't on the Internet.
 
  • #1,228
The Internet and Facebook were taking off around 06-07. There's no way Andrew wasn't on the Internet.

Facebook only become open to non-university email holders (aged 13 plus) in Sept 2006. So it was still quite new by the time Andrew went missing. My Space and Bebo were very popular though especially with teenagers.

However, I really think people are getting too hooked up in whether he had internet access or not. Children went missing, were murdered, were groomed well before the internet existed.

All moo
 
  • #1,229
Yes...Kevin Hicks springs to mind. The thing about Andrew though is that he appeared to have limited social contact outside of school, church and family. So if he didn't have Internet access, either he was groomed by someone in that circle, or he randomly took the day off and was unfortunate enough to come by a nefarious individual.

I suppose on balance, the former is far more likely. There were some arrests in the past couple of years, which maybe suggests what LE are thinking.
 
  • #1,230
I am by no means surprised if an introverted young boy in 2007 had limited to no Internet presence. Especially if home Internet usage was limited to the laptop of the older sister.

I am also not surprised at all, if Andrew was groomed, lured or invited to London by someone without using the Internet to do so.
 
  • #1,231
Andrew could have found band tour dates in magazines such as NME, Terrorizer or Kerrang!, these would be available in larger newsagents and he wouldn’t have to purchase a copy to flick through it. I used to do the same thing as a kid. Kerrang and Terrorizer came with free CDs with singles on, usually that of the bands that were interviewed that month.

Also there’s last.fm but that doesn’t make as much sense since I believe it links to streaming services such as Spotify (on a computer back then), so we can probably rule it out.

Here’s a link to a September 8th 2007 copy of Kerrang!
 

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  • #1,232
Here’s the Terrorizer editions for August and September.
Also Rocksound August 2007 featured one of Andrew’s favourite bands on the cover, Funeral for a Friend. (They shared the linked image if him and his missing poster as well)

Also the Sept 2007 issue of Kerrang (the image in my last post) features a poster of Ville Valo of HIM, another of Andrew’s favourites. Rocksound September 2007 didn’t seem as interesting, but you can see an example of a bagged one. I distinctly remember alternating purchasing the magazines to get each month so you could get the poster you wanted.

There’s also Metal Hammer, but I didn’t think the content of Aug/Sept 2007 would have interested Andrew.
 

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  • #1,233
This is all very interesting, thank you.

I think your final scenario feels possible. The plan could have been made at both ends, but for whatever reason, whoever Andrew was meeting in London was not someone he felt comfortable telling his parents about.

The question then is - why during the week? Why when he would be missing school? Surely, if you were the perpetrator, you would want that plan to take place at a time when he is least likely to be 'missed'. Since A had permission to travel to London alone, we've got to then assume that there was an event tied to the visit. The gig theory then becomes more likely, although perhaps he never made it to the event itself :(.
His absence would be noticed by the adults during the weekend. No confirmation the adults would be notified if he missed that school day.
 
  • #1,234
Facebook only become open to non-university email holders (aged 13 plus) in Sept 2006. So it was still quite new by the time Andrew went missing. My Space and Bebo were very popular though especially with teenagers.

However, I really think people are getting too hooked up in whether he had internet access or not. Children went missing, were murdered, were groomed well before the internet existed.

All moo
The internet access could have been used not to establish a primary communication, but also secondary. Or for Andrew to research bus lines from point A to point B etc. The grooming itself, or other sort of relationship, could be mostly offline. The circumstances here - a break from the routine - makes the case unusual for other missing children cases.

As I've said, if Andrew lived in London and was just coming back from school unattended and happened to disappear: it's a serial killer, or maybe a groomer (but I can't think of a reason for the foul play in this case).
 
  • #1,235
I am by no means surprised if an introverted young boy in 2007 had limited to no Internet presence. Especially if home Internet usage was limited to the laptop of the older sister.
Disagree here. In 2007, introverted young boys were thriving on the internet. That was before the boom of social media. More of online chatrooms and forums.
 
  • #1,236
Andrew could have found band tour dates in magazines such as NME, Terrorizer or Kerrang!, these would be available in larger newsagents and he wouldn’t have to purchase a copy to flick through it. I used to do the same thing as a kid. Kerrang and Terrorizer came with free CDs with singles on, usually that of the bands that were interviewed that month.

Also there’s last.fm but that doesn’t make as much sense since I believe it links to streaming services such as Spotify (on a computer back then), so we can probably rule it out.

Here’s a link to a September 8th 2007 copy of Kerrang!
Without a trace of online researches of how to get tickets or how much they cost and how to get to the venue etc, I don't see how this could contribute to his decision based on what we know of his previous activities.
 
  • #1,237
Without a trace of online researches of how to get tickets or how much they cost and how to get to the venue etc, I don't see how this could contribute to his decision based on what we know of his previous activities.

There were phone lines you could ring for the information. Else nobody would have attended concerts and gigs before the internet!
 
  • #1,238
Andrew could have found band tour dates in magazines such as NME, Terrorizer or Kerrang!, these would be available in larger newsagents and he wouldn’t have to purchase a copy to flick through it. I used to do the same thing as a kid. Kerrang and Terrorizer came with free CDs with singles on, usually that of the bands that were interviewed that month.

Also there’s last.fm but that doesn’t make as much sense since I believe it links to streaming services such as Spotify (on a computer back then), so we can probably rule it out.

Here’s a link to a September 8th 2007 copy of Kerrang!

Such a good theory with the music mags and some excellent sleuthing!
 
  • #1,239
There were phone lines you could ring for the information. Else nobody would have attended concerts and gigs before the internet!
Yes, that's a whole different scenario of 'what could be missed'.
 
  • #1,240
Such a good theory with the music mags and some excellent sleuthing!
I was a movie buff and lived in a small town with no movie theaters. I could use mags to be 'aware' of release dates of certain movies. What would cost me to travel to another city and what bus lines I'd take to get to a showing is something I could either have found out online (more easily) than by calling a landline without leaving a trace. And either the plan involved a night-out or just a day trip is also something of significance.
 
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