GUILTY UK - Ashley Dale, 28 fatally shot at home, Liverpool - 21 Aug 2022
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Start from the beginning, please
The Horrible mean prosecutor called the murder suspect's mother a "bare faced liar" and made her cry!Start from the beginning, please
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10:41KEY EVENT
Mr Wright says: “Are you the partner of Thomas McMahon?”
Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct.”
PW: “And you have a number of children, now all grown up?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “You have three sons?”
LM: “Yes.”
PW: “And a daughter?”
LM: “Yes
PW: “One of those sons, Joseph. Joseph Peers?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “In August of last year, was the family home at Woodlands Road?”
LM: “It was.”
PW: “Who did you live at that address with at that time?”
LM: “Meself, me husband, daughter and Joseph.”
PW:“The daughter is the youngest, that’s Kerry?”
LM: “Yes.”
PW: “Joseph was living there too?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
10:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon replies: “I was at home.”
PW: “That evening, who else was at home?”
LM: “Erm, everyone had been at home but then Kody has been at home and Tom went out and then Joe went out.”
PW: “Later in the evening what did you do?”
LM: “Probably went up to my bedroom, like I normally do, about 7, 8 o’clock.”
PW: “What would you then be doing?”
LM: “Probably just, erm, on me phone or doing a wordsearch or, just watch a bit of telly.”
PW: “You have a TV in the bedroom?”
LM: “I have a TV and a CCTV screen as well.”
PW: “That evening, you say Joe was out?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “Do you recall seeing him again that evening or not?”
LM: “I do recall seeing Joseph, just after 11 o'clock.”
PW: “What causes you to remember the time?”
LM: “Erm cos I could hear the television downstairs, the boxing was on. The fight, everyone was wanting to watch the fight. The telly was on quite loud to be fair.”
PW: “What led you to realise it was your son Joe that had come back?”
LM: “I could hear him in the kitchen with his dad.”
PW: “Did you see him that evening?”
LM: “He come upstairs with a cup of tea for me and sat on the bed.”
PW: “Can you remember roughly how long that was after you became aware he was back?”
LM: “He come straight in, I think his dad had already made one. It was straight away to be fair. He come up and put the tea on the table.”
PW: “Did he do anything then?”
LM: “He went into his own room. I think he then got changed. He come back in me room and I think asked for a lighter.”
PW: “He got changed, into what?”
LM: “He just put his pyjamas on. That’s what he does. Make himself a tea and toast, and that’s it for the night. Sometimes he might stay up late and take the dog for a walk.”
PW: “Do you smoke?”
LM: “I do, that’s correct.”
PW: “He then went downstairs.”
LM: “He went downstairs, yeah.”
PW: “Could you hear the boxing on?”
LM: “I could hear them, they were excited. The way you do with the boxing. His dad and Joseph.”
PW: “Did you see him again that evening, Joe?”
LM: “Yeah he come upstairs probably later on, after the boxing. What had happened was, I put the camera on, I flipped over and I seen someone knocking. When they come under your porch, you can’t see them. If someone knocked and stayed at the gate, I could see who that person would be. Someone tapped on the window or the door, I can’t remember. The dogs were barking. We’ve got a guard dog, all she does is bark.”
PW: “What could you see?”
LM: “I could see nothing, because he’d come under the porch. I shouted Joseph. He’s opened his window and looked out. He can actually see the person.”
10:49JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon replies: “I shouted Joseph, cos someone had opened the gate and knocked on the door.”
PW: “What were you shouting to him?”
LM: “I said Joseph there’s someone at the door, who’s this?”
PW: “How common is it for anyone to be round at that time?”
LM “It’s very uncommon. No one would knock at that time. We have the dog and she barks when people walk past, it’s so annoying.”
PW: “Are you able to help us what sort of time this was?”
LM: “Probably after 1. Just after quarter past. I can’t recall. It was some time after 1 o'clock, in the early hours. I’ve sat up and shouted Joe and I looked at the time and what not.”
PW: “You described how the boxing had been on. Was the boxing still on or had it finished by the time there was someone outside?”
LM: “The boxing had finished.”
PW: “Are you able to help us how long it had been since it had finished?”
LM: “The boxing finished probably, 20 past 12. Quarter past 12. It had probably been half an hour, 40 minutes after.”
PW: “You having shouted to Joe, what then happened?”
LM: “Joe’s just gone into his bedroom and opened the window and looked out. He shouted ‘giz a minute’ or something to that effect. I heard Joseph back in his closet, he’s come in me room. He’s been changed into different clothes. He said he was going out.he actually went downstairs but come back up and asked me for a packet of cigarettes I remember saying I want them back in the morning when you go the shop.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Joseph Peers mum called as witness
Mr Wright calls his client’s mum, Leslie McMahon, to give evidence.Mr Wright says: “Are you the partner of Thomas McMahon?”
Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct.”
PW: “And you have a number of children, now all grown up?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “You have three sons?”
LM: “Yes.”
PW: “And a daughter?”
LM: “Yes
PW: “One of those sons, Joseph. Joseph Peers?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “In August of last year, was the family home at Woodlands Road?”
LM: “It was.”
PW: “Who did you live at that address with at that time?”
LM: “Meself, me husband, daughter and Joseph.”
PW:“The daughter is the youngest, that’s Kerry?”
LM: “Yes.”
PW: “Joseph was living there too?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
10:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Peers 'returned home at just after 11pm'
Mr Wright asks: “I’m going to ask you about events on the night of August 20 last year. Can you recall where you were that evening?”Mrs McMahon replies: “I was at home.”
PW: “That evening, who else was at home?”
LM: “Erm, everyone had been at home but then Kody has been at home and Tom went out and then Joe went out.”
PW: “Later in the evening what did you do?”
LM: “Probably went up to my bedroom, like I normally do, about 7, 8 o’clock.”
PW: “What would you then be doing?”
LM: “Probably just, erm, on me phone or doing a wordsearch or, just watch a bit of telly.”
PW: “You have a TV in the bedroom?”
LM: “I have a TV and a CCTV screen as well.”
PW: “That evening, you say Joe was out?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “Do you recall seeing him again that evening or not?”
LM: “I do recall seeing Joseph, just after 11 o'clock.”
PW: “What causes you to remember the time?”
LM: “Erm cos I could hear the television downstairs, the boxing was on. The fight, everyone was wanting to watch the fight. The telly was on quite loud to be fair.”
PW: “What led you to realise it was your son Joe that had come back?”
LM: “I could hear him in the kitchen with his dad.”
PW: “Did you see him that evening?”
LM: “He come upstairs with a cup of tea for me and sat on the bed.”
PW: “Can you remember roughly how long that was after you became aware he was back?”
LM: “He come straight in, I think his dad had already made one. It was straight away to be fair. He come up and put the tea on the table.”
PW: “Did he do anything then?”
LM: “He went into his own room. I think he then got changed. He come back in me room and I think asked for a lighter.”
PW: “He got changed, into what?”
LM: “He just put his pyjamas on. That’s what he does. Make himself a tea and toast, and that’s it for the night. Sometimes he might stay up late and take the dog for a walk.”
PW: “Do you smoke?”
LM: “I do, that’s correct.”
PW: “He then went downstairs.”
LM: “He went downstairs, yeah.”
PW: “Could you hear the boxing on?”
LM: “I could hear them, they were excited. The way you do with the boxing. His dad and Joseph.”
PW: “Did you see him again that evening, Joe?”
LM: “Yeah he come upstairs probably later on, after the boxing. What had happened was, I put the camera on, I flipped over and I seen someone knocking. When they come under your porch, you can’t see them. If someone knocked and stayed at the gate, I could see who that person would be. Someone tapped on the window or the door, I can’t remember. The dogs were barking. We’ve got a guard dog, all she does is bark.”
PW: “What could you see?”
LM: “I could see nothing, because he’d come under the porch. I shouted Joseph. He’s opened his window and looked out. He can actually see the person.”
10:49JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Peers mum says 'someone called for him after 1am'
Mr Wright asks: “What did you do?”Mrs McMahon replies: “I shouted Joseph, cos someone had opened the gate and knocked on the door.”
PW: “What were you shouting to him?”
LM: “I said Joseph there’s someone at the door, who’s this?”
PW: “How common is it for anyone to be round at that time?”
LM “It’s very uncommon. No one would knock at that time. We have the dog and she barks when people walk past, it’s so annoying.”
PW: “Are you able to help us what sort of time this was?”
LM: “Probably after 1. Just after quarter past. I can’t recall. It was some time after 1 o'clock, in the early hours. I’ve sat up and shouted Joe and I looked at the time and what not.”
PW: “You described how the boxing had been on. Was the boxing still on or had it finished by the time there was someone outside?”
LM: “The boxing had finished.”
PW: “Are you able to help us how long it had been since it had finished?”
LM: “The boxing finished probably, 20 past 12. Quarter past 12. It had probably been half an hour, 40 minutes after.”
PW: “You having shouted to Joe, what then happened?”
LM: “Joe’s just gone into his bedroom and opened the window and looked out. He shouted ‘giz a minute’ or something to that effect. I heard Joseph back in his closet, he’s come in me room. He’s been changed into different clothes. He said he was going out.he actually went downstairs but come back up and asked me for a packet of cigarettes I remember saying I want them back in the morning when you go the shop.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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10:56KEY EVENT
Mrs McMahon replies: “I think I said to him, put a key under the bin. Don’t be rowdy when you come back in.”
PW: “Do you remember him coming back in?”
LM: “I do recall him coming back in.”
PW: “When was that?”
LM: “Probably after 3 o'clock in the morning.”
PW: “What is it that causes you to remember that?”
LM: “I’d heard Joseph. He usually shouts when the camera’s on. Joe will stand at the gate, his dad will go to the door and let Joseph in.”
PW: “Was there anything else of note that you recall from the events of that night?”
LM: “No nothing really. Joe’s just come home and gone up to bed.”
PW: “You made reference to a camera, CCTV at the front of the house. Are those premises you still occupy?”
LM: “They are. They’re still premises where I live but I actually did move out for a while. The gable end had gone on the side of the house. One of the ceilings in the back bedroom, it was ready to collapse.”
PW: “You moved out. You alone or the family?”
LM: “Yeah the family had to move out.”
PW: “When was that?”
LM: “Originally they were offering me properties in an area where Joe had a dispersal from. It went on for a while. I think we moved in the February.”
PW: “What happened to your property?”
LM: “Originally cos it was supposed to be July, August, a lot of my property was boxed and stored away. It wasn’t a permanent move so we just took essentials.”
PW: “The CCTV or the camera that was installed, did it have a recording facility?”
LM: “It did yeah.”
PW: “Was that working on the night of August 20?”
LM: “Yeah it was working, it was recording. It recorded all the time.”
PW: “What happened to it?”
LM: “When we moved, the box itself had been packed away. I think it had got damaged with water. It had been damaged. A lot of things were damaged where they’d been packed in a van.”
PW: “When did you find this out?”
LM: “Erm, I think it was when I seen Dave Rawsthorne.”
PW: “Dave Rawsthorne is a police officer in this case?”
LM: “That’s correct?”
PW: “They came to speak to you?
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “And you were asked certain questions, including questions about the CCTV?”
LM: “That's correct.”
PW: “It was then that you disclosed that this equipment had been damaged?”
LM: “Not to Dave Rawthorne, no. I actually told the solicitor.”
PW: “You were asked about the CCTV by the officer?”
LM: “Yeah we spoke about it.”
PW: “Did you then try to make enquiries about the whereabouts of the CCTV box and whether it was damaged?”
LM: “Me husband went to find it. He brought it out the storage. When we put it on, it wasn’t working. We replaced it.”
PW: “What happened to the damaged one.”
“I just put it in the skip at the recycling centre. I didn’t think we needed it. If I’d been a bit more on the ball, if I knew everything what was going on, I’d have probably kept it.”
11:02KEY EVENT
Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting rises to cross examine the witness. He says he “will be clear about what he is suggesting.”
PG: “You’re the mother of Joseph Peers?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “And am I right that you’re a loving mother?”
LM: “I love my children dearly.”
PG: “Are you a protective mother as well?”
LM: “Every mother’s protective yes.”
PG: “Sadly you’ve told this jury a pack of lies.”
LM: “You prove that.”
Mr Greaney asks her to face the jury so they can “assess her evidence.”
PG: “In summer 2022, Joseph lived with you at Woodside Road.”
Mrs Mahon corrects him: “Woodlands Road.” She says that is right.
PG: “Did he come and go as he wished?”
LM: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Whatever time of night or day?”
LM: “Yes.”
PG: “When he came back on that night of August 20, if he did?”
LM: “He did.”
PG: “There was nothing out of the ordinary about that?”
LM: “Nothing at all no, nothing whatsoever.”
PG: “He has a background in boxing?”
LM: “That’s correct. He used to box with the Salisbury gym in town.”
PG: “There would be nothing unusual about him wanting to watch a boxing match?”
LM: “Nothing unusual.”
PG: “Was there anything special about that night. Was it a wedding anniversary, was it your birthday. Such that it might stick in your mind?”
LM: “It’s probably been on a Saturday. My grandchild normally comes, she was on holiday. It was my birthday five days previous.”
PG: “I want to understand if there was anything unusual or special about the day that would make it stick in your mind.”
LM: “It was just the same Saturday as the week before and the week before that.”
PG: “You gave a witness statement on July 20 2023, 11 months after the events we’re speaking about.”
LM: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Would you help the jury how you were able to recall the detail of a Saturday that was nothing special?”
LM: “There was no change in it. There was no change in my routine on that day. My life is still the same and that’s how it carried on.”
PG: “The question is this day that was just run of the mill, what enabled you to recall details of times and events 11 months later.”
LM: “Erm. 11 months later. There was nothing, I remembered it. I remember quite a lot of things. You’ve also called me a liar.”
PG: “Yes I have.”
LM: : “When you’ve got evidence to put before the court to say i’m a liar, you can call me one.”
PG: “We haven’t finished.”
11:07JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon: “No I have not. When we give statements we were not together.”
PG: “It was on the same day. Can I just understand. Your son has been arrested and charged with murder. You have never spoken to your husband about the events on that night?”
LM: “Of the night the young lady got murdered, everybody in Liverpool spoke about it. We spoke how sad it was yeah.”
PG: “Have you spoken about when happened in your house that night?”
LM: “No because what happened in my house that night is that same as what happened every night.”
PG: “At no stage before you gave your witness statement did you discuss the comings and goings?”
LM: “Thomas my husband was actually there, I don’t need to speak for him he can tell you himself.”
PG: “Sometimes when people have a common experience, they talk about it. I’m asking you when you’ve spoken to Thomas about the comings and goings that night.”
LM: “We talked about Joe taking the dog out or coming in or watching the boxing?”
PG: “There was no trick to my questions. I simply wanted to establish that you and your husband have spoken about happened?”
LM: “Alls i'm doing is confirming to you is they were watching the boxing together that night.”
PG: “There isn’t any need to be cross, I am just establishing whether you talked to your husband about the events that night.”
LM: “I’m just nervous.”
PG: “You explained to us that that evening, Joseph had been out.”
LM: “I did that’s correct.”
Mrs McMahon appears to become tearful
PG: “It isn’t my purpose to upset you. You take a moment.”
LM: “I’m ok.”
11:14JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon: “Joseph went out early in the morning, probably half 10, 11 o'clock.”
PG: “Did you know where he was going?”
LM: “Probably to the shops on Pilch Lane.”
PG: “Let’s move on a bit in time. On September 5 last year the police came to your home?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You weren’t there, or your husband?”
LM: “No I was not”
PG: “Is it right they put your door in?”
LM: “That’s correct. That’s not the first time they’ve been to my house. All in all, they’ve been in touch three times.”
PG: “They left behind a notice making clear they were looking for your son Joseph.”
LM: “They left a warrant but there was no name on it.”
PG: “Did you realise they were looking for Joseph?”
LM: “I’d been told someone has informed me there’s a person of interest at Woodlands Road. I’d been out shopping. When I come home there was no police present. The neighbours said the police have been all over your house. On September 5, I’d gone out. I come home about half past 9. The door had come in. I phone the officer the next morning but he was on leave. He phoned me back probably the 7th or 8th of September and said what it is, we’ve received information from someone that there’s a person of interest at this address.
“I asked who’s this person, and he couldn’t tell me. They brought a dog handler in. Two days later the police come again. I’ve actually gone out. They mentioned the name Joey. I explained I had a son called Joseph or Joe. He’s never ever been called Joey. There was a miscommunication between all the police, he didn’t have a clue what was going on and he left.”
PG: “On August 30, you knew the police believed there was a person of interest in your home in connection with the murder of Ashley Dale.”
LM: “You’re trying to say something that’s not true sir. I did not know that person was Joseph Peers. He said person of interest.”
PG: “Obviously there were only a certain number of people living in your house?”
LM: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “There were only a small number, I think four people, who could have been of interest.”
LM: “I have got another son love.”
PG: “But he wasn't there living there.”
LM: “It doesn't mean they’re not going to look there for him.”
PG: “By elimination, the person was one of your two sons. And only one lived there.”
LM: “I can’t believe they actually knocked at my address.”
PG: “On August 30, you knew by route of elimination that one of your two sons, only one of whom lived at home, was of interest to the police.”
PG: “On September 8, I'd been informed the police had information of a person of interest at my address called Joey. My son’s not Joey.”
LM: “At any stage from August 30, when the police started to show interest in a person at your house. Did you speak to your son and say do you know what’s going on or the police might be looking for you?”
PG: “I had a conversation yeah, that’s correct with Joseph to say the police said there’s a person of interest at our property.”
LM: “When did you have the discussion with your son Joseph about that?”
PG: “Erm. probably when he went to scotland. Some time between September 4 and 13. I can’t be exact.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Peers mum: 'The CCTV was destroyed by water damage'
Mr Wright asks: “Did you say anything to him as he left?”Mrs McMahon replies: “I think I said to him, put a key under the bin. Don’t be rowdy when you come back in.”
PW: “Do you remember him coming back in?”
LM: “I do recall him coming back in.”
PW: “When was that?”
LM: “Probably after 3 o'clock in the morning.”
PW: “What is it that causes you to remember that?”
LM: “I’d heard Joseph. He usually shouts when the camera’s on. Joe will stand at the gate, his dad will go to the door and let Joseph in.”
PW: “Was there anything else of note that you recall from the events of that night?”
LM: “No nothing really. Joe’s just come home and gone up to bed.”
PW: “You made reference to a camera, CCTV at the front of the house. Are those premises you still occupy?”
LM: “They are. They’re still premises where I live but I actually did move out for a while. The gable end had gone on the side of the house. One of the ceilings in the back bedroom, it was ready to collapse.”
PW: “You moved out. You alone or the family?”
LM: “Yeah the family had to move out.”
PW: “When was that?”
LM: “Originally they were offering me properties in an area where Joe had a dispersal from. It went on for a while. I think we moved in the February.”
PW: “What happened to your property?”
LM: “Originally cos it was supposed to be July, August, a lot of my property was boxed and stored away. It wasn’t a permanent move so we just took essentials.”
PW: “The CCTV or the camera that was installed, did it have a recording facility?”
LM: “It did yeah.”
PW: “Was that working on the night of August 20?”
LM: “Yeah it was working, it was recording. It recorded all the time.”
PW: “What happened to it?”
LM: “When we moved, the box itself had been packed away. I think it had got damaged with water. It had been damaged. A lot of things were damaged where they’d been packed in a van.”
PW: “When did you find this out?”
LM: “Erm, I think it was when I seen Dave Rawsthorne.”
PW: “Dave Rawsthorne is a police officer in this case?”
LM: “That’s correct?”
PW: “They came to speak to you?
LM: “That’s correct.”
PW: “And you were asked certain questions, including questions about the CCTV?”
LM: “That's correct.”
PW: “It was then that you disclosed that this equipment had been damaged?”
LM: “Not to Dave Rawthorne, no. I actually told the solicitor.”
PW: “You were asked about the CCTV by the officer?”
LM: “Yeah we spoke about it.”
PW: “Did you then try to make enquiries about the whereabouts of the CCTV box and whether it was damaged?”
LM: “Me husband went to find it. He brought it out the storage. When we put it on, it wasn’t working. We replaced it.”
PW: “What happened to the damaged one.”
“I just put it in the skip at the recycling centre. I didn’t think we needed it. If I’d been a bit more on the ball, if I knew everything what was going on, I’d have probably kept it.”
11:02KEY EVENT
'You've told a pack of lies'
Mr Wright has no further questions for Mrs McMahon, and the barristers representing the other defendants have no questions.Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting rises to cross examine the witness. He says he “will be clear about what he is suggesting.”
PG: “You’re the mother of Joseph Peers?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “And am I right that you’re a loving mother?”
LM: “I love my children dearly.”
PG: “Are you a protective mother as well?”
LM: “Every mother’s protective yes.”
PG: “Sadly you’ve told this jury a pack of lies.”
LM: “You prove that.”
Mr Greaney asks her to face the jury so they can “assess her evidence.”
PG: “In summer 2022, Joseph lived with you at Woodside Road.”
Mrs Mahon corrects him: “Woodlands Road.” She says that is right.
PG: “Did he come and go as he wished?”
LM: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Whatever time of night or day?”
LM: “Yes.”
PG: “When he came back on that night of August 20, if he did?”
LM: “He did.”
PG: “There was nothing out of the ordinary about that?”
LM: “Nothing at all no, nothing whatsoever.”
PG: “He has a background in boxing?”
LM: “That’s correct. He used to box with the Salisbury gym in town.”
PG: “There would be nothing unusual about him wanting to watch a boxing match?”
LM: “Nothing unusual.”
PG: “Was there anything special about that night. Was it a wedding anniversary, was it your birthday. Such that it might stick in your mind?”
LM: “It’s probably been on a Saturday. My grandchild normally comes, she was on holiday. It was my birthday five days previous.”
PG: “I want to understand if there was anything unusual or special about the day that would make it stick in your mind.”
LM: “It was just the same Saturday as the week before and the week before that.”
PG: “You gave a witness statement on July 20 2023, 11 months after the events we’re speaking about.”
LM: “That’s correct yes.”
PG: “Would you help the jury how you were able to recall the detail of a Saturday that was nothing special?”
LM: “There was no change in it. There was no change in my routine on that day. My life is still the same and that’s how it carried on.”
PG: “The question is this day that was just run of the mill, what enabled you to recall details of times and events 11 months later.”
LM: “Erm. 11 months later. There was nothing, I remembered it. I remember quite a lot of things. You’ve also called me a liar.”
PG: “Yes I have.”
LM: : “When you’ve got evidence to put before the court to say i’m a liar, you can call me one.”
PG: “We haven’t finished.”
11:07JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Witness becomes tearful
Mr Greaney asks: “That’s the same day your husband gave a witness statement. Have you discussed the events of that day with Thomas?”Mrs McMahon: “No I have not. When we give statements we were not together.”
PG: “It was on the same day. Can I just understand. Your son has been arrested and charged with murder. You have never spoken to your husband about the events on that night?”
LM: “Of the night the young lady got murdered, everybody in Liverpool spoke about it. We spoke how sad it was yeah.”
PG: “Have you spoken about when happened in your house that night?”
LM: “No because what happened in my house that night is that same as what happened every night.”
PG: “At no stage before you gave your witness statement did you discuss the comings and goings?”
LM: “Thomas my husband was actually there, I don’t need to speak for him he can tell you himself.”
PG: “Sometimes when people have a common experience, they talk about it. I’m asking you when you’ve spoken to Thomas about the comings and goings that night.”
LM: “We talked about Joe taking the dog out or coming in or watching the boxing?”
PG: “There was no trick to my questions. I simply wanted to establish that you and your husband have spoken about happened?”
LM: “Alls i'm doing is confirming to you is they were watching the boxing together that night.”
PG: “There isn’t any need to be cross, I am just establishing whether you talked to your husband about the events that night.”
LM: “I’m just nervous.”
PG: “You explained to us that that evening, Joseph had been out.”
LM: “I did that’s correct.”
Mrs McMahon appears to become tearful
PG: “It isn’t my purpose to upset you. You take a moment.”
LM: “I’m ok.”
11:14JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Police knock on Peers family home
Mr Greaney continues: “You’ve been able to remember some times. Can you help us with the time Joseph went out?”Mrs McMahon: “Joseph went out early in the morning, probably half 10, 11 o'clock.”
PG: “Did you know where he was going?”
LM: “Probably to the shops on Pilch Lane.”
PG: “Let’s move on a bit in time. On September 5 last year the police came to your home?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You weren’t there, or your husband?”
LM: “No I was not”
PG: “Is it right they put your door in?”
LM: “That’s correct. That’s not the first time they’ve been to my house. All in all, they’ve been in touch three times.”
PG: “They left behind a notice making clear they were looking for your son Joseph.”
LM: “They left a warrant but there was no name on it.”
PG: “Did you realise they were looking for Joseph?”
LM: “I’d been told someone has informed me there’s a person of interest at Woodlands Road. I’d been out shopping. When I come home there was no police present. The neighbours said the police have been all over your house. On September 5, I’d gone out. I come home about half past 9. The door had come in. I phone the officer the next morning but he was on leave. He phoned me back probably the 7th or 8th of September and said what it is, we’ve received information from someone that there’s a person of interest at this address.
“I asked who’s this person, and he couldn’t tell me. They brought a dog handler in. Two days later the police come again. I’ve actually gone out. They mentioned the name Joey. I explained I had a son called Joseph or Joe. He’s never ever been called Joey. There was a miscommunication between all the police, he didn’t have a clue what was going on and he left.”
PG: “On August 30, you knew the police believed there was a person of interest in your home in connection with the murder of Ashley Dale.”
LM: “You’re trying to say something that’s not true sir. I did not know that person was Joseph Peers. He said person of interest.”
PG: “Obviously there were only a certain number of people living in your house?”
LM: “Yes that’s correct.”
PG: “There were only a small number, I think four people, who could have been of interest.”
LM: “I have got another son love.”
PG: “But he wasn't there living there.”
LM: “It doesn't mean they’re not going to look there for him.”
PG: “By elimination, the person was one of your two sons. And only one lived there.”
LM: “I can’t believe they actually knocked at my address.”
PG: “On August 30, you knew by route of elimination that one of your two sons, only one of whom lived at home, was of interest to the police.”
PG: “On September 8, I'd been informed the police had information of a person of interest at my address called Joey. My son’s not Joey.”
LM: “At any stage from August 30, when the police started to show interest in a person at your house. Did you speak to your son and say do you know what’s going on or the police might be looking for you?”
PG: “I had a conversation yeah, that’s correct with Joseph to say the police said there’s a person of interest at our property.”
LM: “When did you have the discussion with your son Joseph about that?”
PG: “Erm. probably when he went to scotland. Some time between September 4 and 13. I can’t be exact.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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11:20JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct.”
PG: “As Mr Wright has established, you had a CCTV system at home which recorded to a box. It was some form of digital recording. And the recording would be retained by the box for a period of time?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “How long did the box retain CCTV for.”
LM: “Erm I'm not sure. You’d have to ask me husband. I don’t know how it works.”
PG: “Can you help us in case your husband can't, make and model?”
LM: “Erm. Swan, I think it was Swan. It was a Swan CCTV, cos we replaced it with a Swan CCTV cos the cameras just went back into the CCTV without changing the camera.”
PG: “So the position is tt did record, but it’s now on a skip or in landfill somewhere in Liverpool.
LM: “That’s correct. I actually asked Dave Rawsthorne why the police never took the CCTV out of my property.”
PG: “Joseph was arrested on September 13?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Following interviews, he was released on September 15.”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Do you agree that when he was released, it’s very likely the CCTV would have been available?”
LM: “That’s correct, it would have been available.”
PG: “You hadn’t moved out of the home at that time.”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Did Joseph ask to see that footage?”
LM: “None of us were interested in it. We didn’t think we’d have to refer back to the CCTV. Joseph never looked at the CCTV, that’s correct.”
PG: “Joseph had been arrested on suspicion of murder on the 20th and 21st, he had an alibi because he was at home watching the boxing but he never asked to look at the CCTV?”
LM: “It wasn’t until I spoke to Dave Rawsthorne about it that I thought, that CCTV could have had Joseph. If they’d have took the CCTV, they’d have seen whoever coming in and out of my house.”
PG: “No one ever watched or asked for the CCTV within your house and sadly its now in landfill.”
LM: “It’s lost, sadly it really is lost.”
11:28JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct yeah, he’d gone to sign on and got arrested.”
PG: “After that he was charged with murder?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Even if it hadn’t struck you as serious in September, there is no doubt this is now a serious business, now your son was charged with a terrible murder. That is before you moved out of Woodlands Road?”
LM: “I never put the CCTV on and looked at it. I should have done, it’s got Joseph at home. It was just a stressful time. I was moving, it wasn’t a permanent move. I hadn’t seen Joseph for seven months when he got arrested.”
PG: “I think you are ahead of me. I was going to ask you whether, once Joseph had been charged, you watched or retained the CCTV. The answer is you didn't.”
LM: “No I never watched it.”
PG: “And Joseph never asked you for it?”
LM: “Joseph had been arrested and never asked me for it. I never seen Joseph until August. I never had a phone call or a visit with Joseph.”
PG: “You had contact with the police following the arrest of your son and following Joseph being charged. On March 20 this year, you spoke to DC Sheedy and Dave Rawsthorne?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You discussed with them your concerns about your son’s position?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “At no stage did you mention that your son had been at your home on the night of the killing?”
LM: “That’s not correct no. I did mention that Joseph was at home. I actually spoke to them about Joseph, the boxing and what not. I spoke to them for about 20 minutes about a couple of things.”
PG: “You didn’t breathe a word of his alibi. Nothing was said about CCTV either?”
LM: “I suggest you get Mr Rawsthorne up and let me ask him. If he’d have got that CCTV when they raided my house, we’d have all seen where Joseph was.”
PG: “You spoke again to DC Sheedy on April 25 and July 5. Again you said not a word about your son’s alibi?”
LM: “I spoke to Jo Sheedy regarding Joseph not having a visit or phone call. She said it was the prison stopping it, or the Home Office. It turned out it was actually the police.”
PG: “ The reason you did not breathe a word of this alibi, is it is bare faced lies.”
LM: “You put the evidence there to say I’m a bare faced liar. You're making assumptions about me. Don’t. When you have evidence to say ‘Mrs McMahon, you’re a liar’, you can do so. I’m sorry.”
PG: “On August 23, your son made the first of two trips to scotland. Did you help him to make the arrangements to stay in Scotland?”
LM: “He went to stay in Scotland with my brother, yes.”
PG: “Did you help to make those arrangements?”
LM: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Why did you understand your son was going to Scotland?”
LM: “It was on the 5th that I knew about. I made arrangements with Tony for him to go up and help him.”
11:32JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr Wright rises and says he has a few questions in re-examination.
PW: “You made reference to ‘they said there was a person of interest at Woodland Road’. did they ever say what that person was of interest in respect of?”
Mrs McMahon says: “Not at all no. they just said they’d received information from an informant that there was a person of interest at my address.”
PW: “Were you ever being informed by the police that the person of interest they were looking for was in respect of the killing of the girl in Liverpool?”
LM: “I’d spoke to Dave Rawsthorne and he did speak about it yeah.”
PW: “I’m asking at the time of the notes. Not later when Mr Rawsthorne spoke to you. I’m asking about the time you came home and there was your door put in.”
LM: “The warrant, it was a section 17 warrant. I spoke to, I phoned the officer the next day. He was on leave. Maybe two days later he phoned me up and said, he still never confirmed to me it was Joseph Peers. He said it was a person of interest. He couldn’t tell me or give me any information. He told me they brought dog handlers in. he said we never took nothing out the property. I agree, they never took anything out the property. When they come the week before, the dog never got out.”
PW: “My question is, did they tell you what it was in respect of that they were looking for a person of interest?”
LM: “No not at that time they never.”
PW: “You were asked about the night of August 20 and how there was nothing out of the ordinary, it was run of the mill.”
LM: “It’s just the same as a normal day.”
PW: “How common was it for anybody to call at your house at 1am?”
LM: “It was unusual.”
Mr Wright has no further questions, and Mrs McMahon is excused.
11:32JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr Wright rises and says he has a few questions in re-examination.
PW: “You made reference to ‘they said there was a person of interest at Woodland Road’. did they ever say what that person was of interest in respect of?”
Mrs McMahon says: “Not at all no. they just said they’d received information from an informant that there was a person of interest at my address.”
PW: “Were you ever being informed by the police that the person of interest they were looking for was in respect of the killing of the girl in Liverpool?”
LM: “I’d spoke to Dave Rawsthorne and he did speak about it yeah.”
PW: “I’m asking at the time of the notes. Not later when Mr Rawsthorne spoke to you. I’m asking about the time you came home and there was your door put in.”
LM: “The warrant, it was a section 17 warrant. I spoke to, I phoned the officer the next day. He was on leave. Maybe two days later he phoned me up and said, he still never confirmed to me it was Joseph Peers. He said it was a person of interest. He couldn’t tell me or give me any information. He told me they brought dog handlers in. he said we never took nothing out the property. I agree, they never took anything out the property. When they come the week before, the dog never got out.”
PW: “My question is, did they tell you what it was in respect of that they were looking for a person of interest?”
LM: “No not at that time they never.”
PW: “You were asked about the night of August 20 and how there was nothing out of the ordinary, it was run of the mill.”
LM: “It’s just the same as a normal day.”
PW: “How common was it for anybody to call at your house at 1am?”
LM: “It was unusual.”
Mr Wright has no further questions, and Mrs McMahon is excused.
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
CCTV is 'sadly lost'
Mr Greaney continues: “Yesterday, we heard some evidence from Joseph about you moving out of Woodlands Road for a period. Mr Wright has asked you about that. You have been asked about this before. Joseph’s solicitors have confirmed you were absent from Woodlands Road between February 3 and April 6 this year.”Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct.”
PG: “As Mr Wright has established, you had a CCTV system at home which recorded to a box. It was some form of digital recording. And the recording would be retained by the box for a period of time?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “How long did the box retain CCTV for.”
LM: “Erm I'm not sure. You’d have to ask me husband. I don’t know how it works.”
PG: “Can you help us in case your husband can't, make and model?”
LM: “Erm. Swan, I think it was Swan. It was a Swan CCTV, cos we replaced it with a Swan CCTV cos the cameras just went back into the CCTV without changing the camera.”
PG: “So the position is tt did record, but it’s now on a skip or in landfill somewhere in Liverpool.
LM: “That’s correct. I actually asked Dave Rawsthorne why the police never took the CCTV out of my property.”
PG: “Joseph was arrested on September 13?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Following interviews, he was released on September 15.”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Do you agree that when he was released, it’s very likely the CCTV would have been available?”
LM: “That’s correct, it would have been available.”
PG: “You hadn’t moved out of the home at that time.”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Did Joseph ask to see that footage?”
LM: “None of us were interested in it. We didn’t think we’d have to refer back to the CCTV. Joseph never looked at the CCTV, that’s correct.”
PG: “Joseph had been arrested on suspicion of murder on the 20th and 21st, he had an alibi because he was at home watching the boxing but he never asked to look at the CCTV?”
LM: “It wasn’t until I spoke to Dave Rawsthorne about it that I thought, that CCTV could have had Joseph. If they’d have took the CCTV, they’d have seen whoever coming in and out of my house.”
PG: “No one ever watched or asked for the CCTV within your house and sadly its now in landfill.”
LM: “It’s lost, sadly it really is lost.”
11:28JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'You're making assumptions about me. Don't'
Mr Greaney continues: “You had contact with the police following the arrest of your son. On January 30, Joseph was arrested again.”Mrs McMahon says: “That’s correct yeah, he’d gone to sign on and got arrested.”
PG: “After that he was charged with murder?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “Even if it hadn’t struck you as serious in September, there is no doubt this is now a serious business, now your son was charged with a terrible murder. That is before you moved out of Woodlands Road?”
LM: “I never put the CCTV on and looked at it. I should have done, it’s got Joseph at home. It was just a stressful time. I was moving, it wasn’t a permanent move. I hadn’t seen Joseph for seven months when he got arrested.”
PG: “I think you are ahead of me. I was going to ask you whether, once Joseph had been charged, you watched or retained the CCTV. The answer is you didn't.”
LM: “No I never watched it.”
PG: “And Joseph never asked you for it?”
LM: “Joseph had been arrested and never asked me for it. I never seen Joseph until August. I never had a phone call or a visit with Joseph.”
PG: “You had contact with the police following the arrest of your son and following Joseph being charged. On March 20 this year, you spoke to DC Sheedy and Dave Rawsthorne?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “You discussed with them your concerns about your son’s position?”
LM: “That’s correct.”
PG: “At no stage did you mention that your son had been at your home on the night of the killing?”
LM: “That’s not correct no. I did mention that Joseph was at home. I actually spoke to them about Joseph, the boxing and what not. I spoke to them for about 20 minutes about a couple of things.”
PG: “You didn’t breathe a word of his alibi. Nothing was said about CCTV either?”
LM: “I suggest you get Mr Rawsthorne up and let me ask him. If he’d have got that CCTV when they raided my house, we’d have all seen where Joseph was.”
PG: “You spoke again to DC Sheedy on April 25 and July 5. Again you said not a word about your son’s alibi?”
LM: “I spoke to Jo Sheedy regarding Joseph not having a visit or phone call. She said it was the prison stopping it, or the Home Office. It turned out it was actually the police.”
PG: “ The reason you did not breathe a word of this alibi, is it is bare faced lies.”
LM: “You put the evidence there to say I’m a bare faced liar. You're making assumptions about me. Don’t. When you have evidence to say ‘Mrs McMahon, you’re a liar’, you can do so. I’m sorry.”
PG: “On August 23, your son made the first of two trips to scotland. Did you help him to make the arrangements to stay in Scotland?”
LM: “He went to stay in Scotland with my brother, yes.”
PG: “Did you help to make those arrangements?”
LM: “Yes I did.”
PG: “Why did you understand your son was going to Scotland?”
LM: “It was on the 5th that I knew about. I made arrangements with Tony for him to go up and help him.”
11:32JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Police 'never said they were looking for my son' at time of warrant
Mr Greaney says he has no further questions.Mr Wright rises and says he has a few questions in re-examination.
PW: “You made reference to ‘they said there was a person of interest at Woodland Road’. did they ever say what that person was of interest in respect of?”
Mrs McMahon says: “Not at all no. they just said they’d received information from an informant that there was a person of interest at my address.”
PW: “Were you ever being informed by the police that the person of interest they were looking for was in respect of the killing of the girl in Liverpool?”
LM: “I’d spoke to Dave Rawsthorne and he did speak about it yeah.”
PW: “I’m asking at the time of the notes. Not later when Mr Rawsthorne spoke to you. I’m asking about the time you came home and there was your door put in.”
LM: “The warrant, it was a section 17 warrant. I spoke to, I phoned the officer the next day. He was on leave. Maybe two days later he phoned me up and said, he still never confirmed to me it was Joseph Peers. He said it was a person of interest. He couldn’t tell me or give me any information. He told me they brought dog handlers in. he said we never took nothing out the property. I agree, they never took anything out the property. When they come the week before, the dog never got out.”
PW: “My question is, did they tell you what it was in respect of that they were looking for a person of interest?”
LM: “No not at that time they never.”
PW: “You were asked about the night of August 20 and how there was nothing out of the ordinary, it was run of the mill.”
LM: “It’s just the same as a normal day.”
PW: “How common was it for anybody to call at your house at 1am?”
LM: “It was unusual.”
Mr Wright has no further questions, and Mrs McMahon is excused.
11:32JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Police 'never said they were looking for my son' at time of warrant
Mr Greaney says he has no further questions.Mr Wright rises and says he has a few questions in re-examination.
PW: “You made reference to ‘they said there was a person of interest at Woodland Road’. did they ever say what that person was of interest in respect of?”
Mrs McMahon says: “Not at all no. they just said they’d received information from an informant that there was a person of interest at my address.”
PW: “Were you ever being informed by the police that the person of interest they were looking for was in respect of the killing of the girl in Liverpool?”
LM: “I’d spoke to Dave Rawsthorne and he did speak about it yeah.”
PW: “I’m asking at the time of the notes. Not later when Mr Rawsthorne spoke to you. I’m asking about the time you came home and there was your door put in.”
LM: “The warrant, it was a section 17 warrant. I spoke to, I phoned the officer the next day. He was on leave. Maybe two days later he phoned me up and said, he still never confirmed to me it was Joseph Peers. He said it was a person of interest. He couldn’t tell me or give me any information. He told me they brought dog handlers in. he said we never took nothing out the property. I agree, they never took anything out the property. When they come the week before, the dog never got out.”
PW: “My question is, did they tell you what it was in respect of that they were looking for a person of interest?”
LM: “No not at that time they never.”
PW: “You were asked about the night of August 20 and how there was nothing out of the ordinary, it was run of the mill.”
LM: “It’s just the same as a normal day.”
PW: “How common was it for anybody to call at your house at 1am?”
LM: “It was unusual.”
Mr Wright has no further questions, and Mrs McMahon is excused.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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11:42KEY EVENT
PW: “Are you the partner of Leslie McMahon?”
TM:“I am.”
PW: “And the father of Joseph Peers?”
TM: “I am”
PW: “And two other sons and also the daughter, Kodie?”
TM: “I am.”
PW: “In August last year, was the family home at Woodlands Road?”.
TM: “Yeah yeah.”
PW: “Who did you live there with?”
TM: “Leslie, me, Joseph, Kodie.”
Mr Wright asks about August 20
PW: “Was there an event that was going to take place?”
TM: “There was yeah. The boxing.”
PW: “Can you remember who was involved in the boxing?”
TM: “Anthony Joshua and Usyk.”
PW: “What were you proposing to do?”
TM: “To watch the boxing, yeah.”
PW: “Where were you going to watch it?”
TM: “At home.”
PW: “Were you going to watch it alone?”
TM: “Joseph did say he was coming round to watch it.”
PW: “Can you remember what time the boxing started?”
TM: “Just after 11ish.”
PW: “At that time, did you have the boxing on the TV?”
TM: “I’d been watching it yeah. Earlier on the Smith fight was on.”
PW: “When you’d been watching that, had you been alone?”
TM: “I was alone, Leslie was upstairs.”
PW: “Did Joe come back?”
TM: “Yeah, later on, yeah.”
PW: “Can you remember roughly when that was?”
TM: “About, just after 11.”
PW: “Are you able to help us as to whether the boxing had started?”
TM: “It had started. I thought he’d be a bit earlier but he wasn’t.”
PG: “What was it that announced his arrival?”
TM: “The dog, she sits by the back door. She started barking. I was actually watching the fight, the warm ups.”
PW: “You say the fight had started at that time?”
TM: “Yeah. it actually started. sorry. The fight started, not the actual boxing. There was a big warm up. The boxing was just starting. The boxing started. It was about 10 past by then. No it wasn’t. Joe come in about 10 minutes later. It was about 10 minutes later. Then the dog kicked off, Joe come in. I opened the door for him.”
PW: “What did he do?”
TM: “He went in the kitchen. He made tea for him and his mum. We had a little banter about the boxing, Smith’s, because he missed it. He went upstairs and took a cup of tea up to his mum.”
PW: “Do you remember asking him to do anything?”
TM: “As he was going upstairs, he did shout put his phone on charge. I don’t think i’ve plugged it in.”
PW: “Do you remember asking him to do anything else at that time?”
TM: “Erm no.”
PW: “He went upstairs, what did you do?”
TM: “I continued watching the boxing.”
PW: “Did you see Joe again. Did he stay upstairs?”
TM: “He was talking to his mum, he stayed up for a bit and come back down. That’s when he come in the living room. I’m on the settee, he’s on the floor watching the telly with the dog.”
PW: “Are you able to help how long roughly he was upstairs, before he came down and watched the boxing?”
TM: “Not exactly. Probably five 10 minutes, I’m not sure.”
PW: “Did you then watch the boxing together?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PW: “Did you watch it till the end?”
TM: “To the end yeah. That was till about 10 past 12.”
PW: “Then what happened?”
TM: “Joe went upstairs then, yeah. The boxing finished at 10 past 12. Joe went to bed then. He’s gone probably in the kitchen I think he went, then he’s gone upstairs. When he’s gone upstairs, he went to bed.”
PW: “When he came down from being upstairs the first time, and was watching the boxing with you. You were on the sofa, he was on the floor. Do you remember how he was dressed?”
TM: “Oh, he had his jamas on.”
PW: “He went to bed.”
TM: “I’ve heard him go in the kitchen and then go upstairs. I was on the toilet. I hadn’t thought nothing about it.”
PW: “You came out of the toilet.”
TM: “I’m in the living room now with the dog.”
PW: “Did anything else of note happen?”
TM: “I thought Joe went to bed. I was dozing off with the telly. Just after 1ish, the dogs kicked off again. The dogs kicked off. I’ve heard a bit of shouting upstairs then a bit of movement. Joe come down and gone out.”
PW: “At this time, were you sharing a bedroom?”
TM: “Now, I was on a couch bed. It’s like a chaise longue thing. In the living room.”
PW: “What was it that you heard. You heard the dogs bark?”
TM: “Yeah yeah yeah.”
PW: “Then what happened?”
TM: “I heard a bit of shouting. I couldn't tell what it was. I was watching the telly. The dogs kicked off, I’ve heard a bit of shouting. I couldn’t hear what it was. Then I’ve heard a bit of movement upstairs then i’ve heard Joe come downstairs and going out.”
PW: “You heard Joe come downstairs?”
TM: “He went straight out. I heard the front door.”
PW: “Was anything said by him or you at this time?”
TM: “The dog was kicking off, I couldn’t hear a thing.”
PW: “He went out?”
TM: “He went out.”
PW: “Was there anything unusual about him going out at that time?”
TM: “No sir. Kids go to clubs until 1 o'clock in the morning. It doesn’t make sense to me. Kids go out all the time. He doesn’t do it all the time. He might take the dog for a walk at 1 o'clock. He walks the dog everywhere.”
PW: “After you’ve heard him go out, did you see him again?”
TM: “Yeah yeah, later on. I was asleep then. I never actually seen him, I heard him.”
PW: “About what time was it?”
TM: “Roughly 3 o'clock.”
11:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr McMahon answers: “It did yeah.”
PW: “Was it working at that time?”
TM:“Yeah.”
PW: “Was there a camera that could be viewed from inside the property?”
TM: “What do you mean?”
PW: “You had a security system installed, what did it comprise of.”
TM: “You mean a monitor what we can view. The monitor is upstairs in Leslie’s bedroom.”
PW: “Was there any other monitor. Was there any other means of viewing it?”
TM: “No no.”
PW: “Did it have a recording facility?”
TM: “Yeah yeah, it was all working.”
PW: “What’s happened to it.”
TM:“It got damaged.”
PW: “When did it get damaged?”
TM: “I’m not sure of the exact date. It was in the property for months afterwards. We had to move cos of construction. It was in the property for months. We had to bag everything, everything got bagged. We had to move. To move from one house to another house, it actually got damaged. I’ve actually lost all my things.”
PW: “When did you discover it was damaged?”
TM: “Er, it was months later. Months later.”
PW: “What’s happened to it, the monitor and the recording equipment?”
TM: “The monitor was ok. It was the recording thingy-o.”
PW: “What happened to it.”
TM: “It got binned because we got a new one.”
11:53JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting, rises to cross examine the witness.
PG: “On the night of the 20th and 21st of August there was a fully functioning CCTV system at your home?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “The comings and goings of Joseph will have been caught on that CCTV?”
TM: “They would have done yeah.”
PG: “It was a system not only could you view in real time, it also recorded events that were happening?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Can you recall what type of recording device it was, the manufacturer?”
TM: “Not at the moment no.”
PG: “How long did it keep the recording for?”
TM: “I think it was on a 14-day cycle.”
PG: “What makes you think it was on a 14 day cycle?”
TM: “When it’s being set up, it says the hard drive right can only hold so much. You can only record a period, your hard drive’s too full and it overwrites.”
PG: “It was just go over the oldest footage.”
TM: “Yeah yeah i think that’s how it works.”
PG: “Whether it would override within 14 days, 28 days or some different period do you actually know?”
TM: “I think it was 14 days.”
PG: “We’ve been told you moved out of Woodlands Road between February 3 and April 6?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “There was a period when you weren’t living at Woodlands Road?”
TM: “Yeah yeah.”
PG: “Up until February 3 when you moved out, the CCTV system was within your home?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Subject to this overwriting issue, it was there for you to watch and playback?”
TM: “Yeah possibly yeah.”
PG: “Joseph was arrested on September 13 on suspicion of murder and released on September 15. Did you realise he had been arrested?”
TM: “In September, yeah.”
PG: “Did you know he’d been arrested on suspicion of murder?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Did you think this was a serious thing that was happening?”
TM: “Of course.”
PG: “Did Joseph ever ask you to view the footage from your system for August 20 and 21?”
TM: “Not that I can recall.”
PG: “On January 30 he was arrested again. After that he was charged with murder.”
TM: “He was charged yeah.”
PG: “Now it was really serious.”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Again, is it right that Joseph never asked you for access to the CCTV?”
TM: “It wouldn’t have made any difference anyway.”
PG: “Did he ask?”
TM: “I’m not sure, I don’t think he did. I can’t remember him saying it.”
12:02JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr McMahon replies: “He might have done yeah. I don't think he, er. He goes to a lot of er. I think he attempted, but I don't think he got in.”
PG: “Do you know who he went with?”
TM: “No, to be honest.”
PG: “Did you have any involvement in your son’s work as a gasfitter?”
TM: “I have dropped him off at a lot of jobs.”
PG: “Do you know anything about work he was doing before he went to Glastonbury?”
TM: “Do you know what, I can’t remember. He’s worked all the time. He gets jobs all the time.”
PG: “Joseph told us yesterday about a man called Anthony and a job on Otterspool Prom. Do you have any idea of anthony’s full name.
TM: “You’re saying he’s done a job, yeah I referred him to it.”
PG: “What’s Anthony’s full name?”
TM: “I’m not sure of his full name. He’s a decorator, I work with him. I can tell you where I dropped him. Down by the docks. You can see all the water and the Pier Head from the house he was working on.”
Mr Greaney asks again about Anthony’s surname.
TM: “I could probably get it, yeah.”
PG: “On August 21, Joseph went to stay at a hotel with a man called James Witham. was James Witham someone you knew?”
TM: “I’ve known vaguely, I seen him a couple of times outside the house speaking to Joe.”
PG: “While they were at the hotel, a van came to pick them up. This was on August 22, the Monday. On the day of Ashley Dale’s murder, your son and James Witham went to a hotel in St Helens, and on the 22nd, a van came to pick them up.”
He is shown footage of the van arriving at the hotel.
Mr Greaney asks: “Can you see your son, they’re walking to a white van?”
TM: “Yeah. what time was that?”
PG: “18.43.”
TM: “And that was on?”
PG: “The Monday, the day after Ashley Dale had been killed. Your van goes to.”
TM: “The day after Ashley Dale had been shot dead.”
PG: “Right.”
TM: “Did you say the 21st or 22nd?”
PG: “She’s shot in the early hours of the 21st. That day, your son and James Witham went to the Mercure Hotel in St Helens. Then on Monday evening, your van drives along and picks them up. Were you driving that van?”
TM: “I was driving that van. It isn’t white. It’s silver. I was driving that van. I’d been to visit a friend in St Helens.”
PG: “I’m sorry for saying it’s white when it’s silver. Was there a plan that you would pick them up?”
TM: “No.”
PG: “Did they happen to walk out the hotel when you were driving by?”
TM: “I’d had a call. As I was on my way home, Joe had suggested picking him up.”
PG: “Is there a reason why you parked on the road as opposed to driving into the hotel?”
TM: “Where I was going, the motorway’s straight down there. Straight ahead.”
PG: “That wouldn’t have stopped you driving into the car park?”
TM: “I didn’t know there was an entrance to the car park. It seemed like a little layby thing. I didn’t know where the entrance was.”
PG: “The same vehicle drops them back off later. We’ll just see that image on the screen. That’s your van again. Again you’ve stopped on the road.”
TM: : “Yeah.”
PG: “That’s your silver van. Had you not realised by this stage where the entrance to the car park was?”
TM: “No I wasn’t staying so I didn’t need to drive anywhere.”
PG: “The time is 9.26. There’s Joseph. This is two hours, about two and three quarter hours after you picked them up. Had you been in their company for those two hours and 45 minutes in the St Helens area?”
TM: “I actually can’t remember. I think I took them for a meal.”
PG: “We see them coming back with food. You’d have had to have driven a long way for a takeaway.”
TM: “I hadn’t. I’d been up to Billy’s. I’m just trying to think.”
PG: “You’re with them for two hours and 45 minutes.”
He is shown a map of St Helens including Radford’s address
PG: : “Do you know who Kallum Radford is?”
TM: “Kallum yeah.”
PG: “Had you driven them to the area of his home?”
TM: “You know what, I did. I dropped them off. He said er, he said someone smacked the car up, hit the car.”
PG: “We know the car had gone there the day before. Do you know why they were going?”
TM: “That’s what they went to talk about, I’m not sure. He never really said nothing to me.”
12:04JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
PG: “Is it your account that there was a firm arrangement between you and your son that he would come back to watch the fight?”
Mr McMahon replies: “Yes sir
PG: “I’m not clear whether you’re saying you watched the whole of the fight with him from start to finish?”
TM: “We did. No, he missed the first two rounds.”
Mr Peers is shown a copy of his witness statement, made in July this year.
PG: “You knew your son was facing trial on a charge of murder. When you gave this statement, were you careful to be accurate?”
TM: “As accurate as I can.”
Mr Greaney reads a section: “We both went into the kitchen where I made tea and toast. Joe went upstairs got changed into his pjs, we both then watched the whole fight together.”
PG: “I am going to suggest that today, you’ve said something different.”
TM: “When you were going on before, I don’t know if you mean the intro or the fight starting."
Mr Greaney has no further questions for the witness.
12:05JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
PW: “You’ve mentioned a Billy. You were shown when your silver van had pulled up on the road and that Joe and James Witham got into the van. Later you dropped them back off. You made reference to ‘I’d been to Billy’s’. Who’s Billy?”
TM: “Billy Potter.”
PW: “Where does Billy Potter live?”
TM: “Newton.”
PW: “Had you been to Billy’s before or after you picked up Joe and James?”
TM: “Before I picked up Joe and james. You’re on about the Sunday?”
PW: “I’m on about, no it's the Monday. It’s the 22nd. It’s the Monday. That’s the day you’ve been asked about.”
TM: “See this is what confused me. You know the date you’re saying. On the Monday, I went to work. Later on, I went to Billy’s. I was probably there until about half 9. I went to Billy’s with Joe actually. Once I left Billy’s, Joe’s had a call. He’s met er. I think he’s met with that Raddy’s. I dropped Joe off. I can’t think where I went. Then I come back and picked him up later.”
PW: “Where did you pick them up from?
TM: “Erm. It was by Raddy’s I think. I think I picked them up by Raddy’s and dropped them off by the hotel.”
PW: “Raddy is?”
TM: “Joe’s mate. Radford. Sorry. It’s just nerves, that’s all.”
PW: “You picked them up, where did you take them?”
TM: “Er, to that hotel.”
12:07JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr Wright says: “May I ndicate that I’m about to close my case. There’s one matter I wish to discuss with my learned friends before closing my case.”
Justice Goose asks the jury to return at 12.20pm.
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Joseph Peers dad called to give evidence
Mr Wright calls the next witness. Thomas McMahon, Peers’ dad, is called to the witness box.PW: “Are you the partner of Leslie McMahon?”
TM:“I am.”
PW: “And the father of Joseph Peers?”
TM: “I am”
PW: “And two other sons and also the daughter, Kodie?”
TM: “I am.”
PW: “In August last year, was the family home at Woodlands Road?”.
TM: “Yeah yeah.”
PW: “Who did you live there with?”
TM: “Leslie, me, Joseph, Kodie.”
Mr Wright asks about August 20
PW: “Was there an event that was going to take place?”
TM: “There was yeah. The boxing.”
PW: “Can you remember who was involved in the boxing?”
TM: “Anthony Joshua and Usyk.”
PW: “What were you proposing to do?”
TM: “To watch the boxing, yeah.”
PW: “Where were you going to watch it?”
TM: “At home.”
PW: “Were you going to watch it alone?”
TM: “Joseph did say he was coming round to watch it.”
PW: “Can you remember what time the boxing started?”
TM: “Just after 11ish.”
PW: “At that time, did you have the boxing on the TV?”
TM: “I’d been watching it yeah. Earlier on the Smith fight was on.”
PW: “When you’d been watching that, had you been alone?”
TM: “I was alone, Leslie was upstairs.”
PW: “Did Joe come back?”
TM: “Yeah, later on, yeah.”
PW: “Can you remember roughly when that was?”
TM: “About, just after 11.”
PW: “Are you able to help us as to whether the boxing had started?”
TM: “It had started. I thought he’d be a bit earlier but he wasn’t.”
PG: “What was it that announced his arrival?”
TM: “The dog, she sits by the back door. She started barking. I was actually watching the fight, the warm ups.”
PW: “You say the fight had started at that time?”
TM: “Yeah. it actually started. sorry. The fight started, not the actual boxing. There was a big warm up. The boxing was just starting. The boxing started. It was about 10 past by then. No it wasn’t. Joe come in about 10 minutes later. It was about 10 minutes later. Then the dog kicked off, Joe come in. I opened the door for him.”
PW: “What did he do?”
TM: “He went in the kitchen. He made tea for him and his mum. We had a little banter about the boxing, Smith’s, because he missed it. He went upstairs and took a cup of tea up to his mum.”
PW: “Do you remember asking him to do anything?”
TM: “As he was going upstairs, he did shout put his phone on charge. I don’t think i’ve plugged it in.”
PW: “Do you remember asking him to do anything else at that time?”
TM: “Erm no.”
PW: “He went upstairs, what did you do?”
TM: “I continued watching the boxing.”
PW: “Did you see Joe again. Did he stay upstairs?”
TM: “He was talking to his mum, he stayed up for a bit and come back down. That’s when he come in the living room. I’m on the settee, he’s on the floor watching the telly with the dog.”
PW: “Are you able to help how long roughly he was upstairs, before he came down and watched the boxing?”
TM: “Not exactly. Probably five 10 minutes, I’m not sure.”
PW: “Did you then watch the boxing together?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PW: “Did you watch it till the end?”
TM: “To the end yeah. That was till about 10 past 12.”
PW: “Then what happened?”
TM: “Joe went upstairs then, yeah. The boxing finished at 10 past 12. Joe went to bed then. He’s gone probably in the kitchen I think he went, then he’s gone upstairs. When he’s gone upstairs, he went to bed.”
PW: “When he came down from being upstairs the first time, and was watching the boxing with you. You were on the sofa, he was on the floor. Do you remember how he was dressed?”
TM: “Oh, he had his jamas on.”
PW: “He went to bed.”
TM: “I’ve heard him go in the kitchen and then go upstairs. I was on the toilet. I hadn’t thought nothing about it.”
PW: “You came out of the toilet.”
TM: “I’m in the living room now with the dog.”
PW: “Did anything else of note happen?”
TM: “I thought Joe went to bed. I was dozing off with the telly. Just after 1ish, the dogs kicked off again. The dogs kicked off. I’ve heard a bit of shouting upstairs then a bit of movement. Joe come down and gone out.”
PW: “At this time, were you sharing a bedroom?”
TM: “Now, I was on a couch bed. It’s like a chaise longue thing. In the living room.”
PW: “What was it that you heard. You heard the dogs bark?”
TM: “Yeah yeah yeah.”
PW: “Then what happened?”
TM: “I heard a bit of shouting. I couldn't tell what it was. I was watching the telly. The dogs kicked off, I’ve heard a bit of shouting. I couldn’t hear what it was. Then I’ve heard a bit of movement upstairs then i’ve heard Joe come downstairs and going out.”
PW: “You heard Joe come downstairs?”
TM: “He went straight out. I heard the front door.”
PW: “Was anything said by him or you at this time?”
TM: “The dog was kicking off, I couldn’t hear a thing.”
PW: “He went out?”
TM: “He went out.”
PW: “Was there anything unusual about him going out at that time?”
TM: “No sir. Kids go to clubs until 1 o'clock in the morning. It doesn’t make sense to me. Kids go out all the time. He doesn’t do it all the time. He might take the dog for a walk at 1 o'clock. He walks the dog everywhere.”
PW: “After you’ve heard him go out, did you see him again?”
TM: “Yeah yeah, later on. I was asleep then. I never actually seen him, I heard him.”
PW: “About what time was it?”
TM: “Roughly 3 o'clock.”
11:47JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
CCTV recorder 'got binned because we got a new one'
Mr Wright asks: “CCTV or security camera for the premises. Did Woodlands Road have a system?”Mr McMahon answers: “It did yeah.”
PW: “Was it working at that time?”
TM:“Yeah.”
PW: “Was there a camera that could be viewed from inside the property?”
TM: “What do you mean?”
PW: “You had a security system installed, what did it comprise of.”
TM: “You mean a monitor what we can view. The monitor is upstairs in Leslie’s bedroom.”
PW: “Was there any other monitor. Was there any other means of viewing it?”
TM: “No no.”
PW: “Did it have a recording facility?”
TM: “Yeah yeah, it was all working.”
PW: “What’s happened to it.”
TM:“It got damaged.”
PW: “When did it get damaged?”
TM: “I’m not sure of the exact date. It was in the property for months afterwards. We had to move cos of construction. It was in the property for months. We had to bag everything, everything got bagged. We had to move. To move from one house to another house, it actually got damaged. I’ve actually lost all my things.”
PW: “When did you discover it was damaged?”
TM: “Er, it was months later. Months later.”
PW: “What’s happened to it, the monitor and the recording equipment?”
TM: “The monitor was ok. It was the recording thingy-o.”
PW: “What happened to it.”
TM: “It got binned because we got a new one.”
11:53JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Joseph never asked me about CCTV'
Mr Wright has no further questions for Mr McMahon.Paul Greaney, KC, prosecuting, rises to cross examine the witness.
PG: “On the night of the 20th and 21st of August there was a fully functioning CCTV system at your home?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “The comings and goings of Joseph will have been caught on that CCTV?”
TM: “They would have done yeah.”
PG: “It was a system not only could you view in real time, it also recorded events that were happening?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Can you recall what type of recording device it was, the manufacturer?”
TM: “Not at the moment no.”
PG: “How long did it keep the recording for?”
TM: “I think it was on a 14-day cycle.”
PG: “What makes you think it was on a 14 day cycle?”
TM: “When it’s being set up, it says the hard drive right can only hold so much. You can only record a period, your hard drive’s too full and it overwrites.”
PG: “It was just go over the oldest footage.”
TM: “Yeah yeah i think that’s how it works.”
PG: “Whether it would override within 14 days, 28 days or some different period do you actually know?”
TM: “I think it was 14 days.”
PG: “We’ve been told you moved out of Woodlands Road between February 3 and April 6?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “There was a period when you weren’t living at Woodlands Road?”
TM: “Yeah yeah.”
PG: “Up until February 3 when you moved out, the CCTV system was within your home?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Subject to this overwriting issue, it was there for you to watch and playback?”
TM: “Yeah possibly yeah.”
PG: “Joseph was arrested on September 13 on suspicion of murder and released on September 15. Did you realise he had been arrested?”
TM: “In September, yeah.”
PG: “Did you know he’d been arrested on suspicion of murder?”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Did you think this was a serious thing that was happening?”
TM: “Of course.”
PG: “Did Joseph ever ask you to view the footage from your system for August 20 and 21?”
TM: “Not that I can recall.”
PG: “On January 30 he was arrested again. After that he was charged with murder.”
TM: “He was charged yeah.”
PG: “Now it was really serious.”
TM: “Yeah.”
PG: “Again, is it right that Joseph never asked you for access to the CCTV?”
TM: “It wouldn’t have made any difference anyway.”
PG: “Did he ask?”
TM: “I’m not sure, I don’t think he did. I can’t remember him saying it.”
12:02JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Someone smacked the car up'
Mr Greaney asks: “Did you know your son went to Glastonbury in June 2022?”Mr McMahon replies: “He might have done yeah. I don't think he, er. He goes to a lot of er. I think he attempted, but I don't think he got in.”
PG: “Do you know who he went with?”
TM: “No, to be honest.”
PG: “Did you have any involvement in your son’s work as a gasfitter?”
TM: “I have dropped him off at a lot of jobs.”
PG: “Do you know anything about work he was doing before he went to Glastonbury?”
TM: “Do you know what, I can’t remember. He’s worked all the time. He gets jobs all the time.”
PG: “Joseph told us yesterday about a man called Anthony and a job on Otterspool Prom. Do you have any idea of anthony’s full name.
TM: “You’re saying he’s done a job, yeah I referred him to it.”
PG: “What’s Anthony’s full name?”
TM: “I’m not sure of his full name. He’s a decorator, I work with him. I can tell you where I dropped him. Down by the docks. You can see all the water and the Pier Head from the house he was working on.”
Mr Greaney asks again about Anthony’s surname.
TM: “I could probably get it, yeah.”
PG: “On August 21, Joseph went to stay at a hotel with a man called James Witham. was James Witham someone you knew?”
TM: “I’ve known vaguely, I seen him a couple of times outside the house speaking to Joe.”
PG: “While they were at the hotel, a van came to pick them up. This was on August 22, the Monday. On the day of Ashley Dale’s murder, your son and James Witham went to a hotel in St Helens, and on the 22nd, a van came to pick them up.”
He is shown footage of the van arriving at the hotel.
Mr Greaney asks: “Can you see your son, they’re walking to a white van?”
TM: “Yeah. what time was that?”
PG: “18.43.”
TM: “And that was on?”
PG: “The Monday, the day after Ashley Dale had been killed. Your van goes to.”
TM: “The day after Ashley Dale had been shot dead.”
PG: “Right.”
TM: “Did you say the 21st or 22nd?”
PG: “She’s shot in the early hours of the 21st. That day, your son and James Witham went to the Mercure Hotel in St Helens. Then on Monday evening, your van drives along and picks them up. Were you driving that van?”
TM: “I was driving that van. It isn’t white. It’s silver. I was driving that van. I’d been to visit a friend in St Helens.”
PG: “I’m sorry for saying it’s white when it’s silver. Was there a plan that you would pick them up?”
TM: “No.”
PG: “Did they happen to walk out the hotel when you were driving by?”
TM: “I’d had a call. As I was on my way home, Joe had suggested picking him up.”
PG: “Is there a reason why you parked on the road as opposed to driving into the hotel?”
TM: “Where I was going, the motorway’s straight down there. Straight ahead.”
PG: “That wouldn’t have stopped you driving into the car park?”
TM: “I didn’t know there was an entrance to the car park. It seemed like a little layby thing. I didn’t know where the entrance was.”
PG: “The same vehicle drops them back off later. We’ll just see that image on the screen. That’s your van again. Again you’ve stopped on the road.”
TM: : “Yeah.”
PG: “That’s your silver van. Had you not realised by this stage where the entrance to the car park was?”
TM: “No I wasn’t staying so I didn’t need to drive anywhere.”
PG: “The time is 9.26. There’s Joseph. This is two hours, about two and three quarter hours after you picked them up. Had you been in their company for those two hours and 45 minutes in the St Helens area?”
TM: “I actually can’t remember. I think I took them for a meal.”
PG: “We see them coming back with food. You’d have had to have driven a long way for a takeaway.”
TM: “I hadn’t. I’d been up to Billy’s. I’m just trying to think.”
PG: “You’re with them for two hours and 45 minutes.”
He is shown a map of St Helens including Radford’s address
PG: : “Do you know who Kallum Radford is?”
TM: “Kallum yeah.”
PG: “Had you driven them to the area of his home?”
TM: “You know what, I did. I dropped them off. He said er, he said someone smacked the car up, hit the car.”
PG: “We know the car had gone there the day before. Do you know why they were going?”
TM: “That’s what they went to talk about, I’m not sure. He never really said nothing to me.”
12:04JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'The whole fight'
Mr Greaney returns to the boxing match.PG: “Is it your account that there was a firm arrangement between you and your son that he would come back to watch the fight?”
Mr McMahon replies: “Yes sir
PG: “I’m not clear whether you’re saying you watched the whole of the fight with him from start to finish?”
TM: “We did. No, he missed the first two rounds.”
Mr Peers is shown a copy of his witness statement, made in July this year.
PG: “You knew your son was facing trial on a charge of murder. When you gave this statement, were you careful to be accurate?”
TM: “As accurate as I can.”
Mr Greaney reads a section: “We both went into the kitchen where I made tea and toast. Joe went upstairs got changed into his pjs, we both then watched the whole fight together.”
PG: “I am going to suggest that today, you’ve said something different.”
TM: “When you were going on before, I don’t know if you mean the intro or the fight starting."
Mr Greaney has no further questions for the witness.
12:05JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Journey to St Helens
Mr Wright rises to ask questions in re-examination.PW: “You’ve mentioned a Billy. You were shown when your silver van had pulled up on the road and that Joe and James Witham got into the van. Later you dropped them back off. You made reference to ‘I’d been to Billy’s’. Who’s Billy?”
TM: “Billy Potter.”
PW: “Where does Billy Potter live?”
TM: “Newton.”
PW: “Had you been to Billy’s before or after you picked up Joe and James?”
TM: “Before I picked up Joe and james. You’re on about the Sunday?”
PW: “I’m on about, no it's the Monday. It’s the 22nd. It’s the Monday. That’s the day you’ve been asked about.”
TM: “See this is what confused me. You know the date you’re saying. On the Monday, I went to work. Later on, I went to Billy’s. I was probably there until about half 9. I went to Billy’s with Joe actually. Once I left Billy’s, Joe’s had a call. He’s met er. I think he’s met with that Raddy’s. I dropped Joe off. I can’t think where I went. Then I come back and picked him up later.”
PW: “Where did you pick them up from?
TM: “Erm. It was by Raddy’s I think. I think I picked them up by Raddy’s and dropped them off by the hotel.”
PW: “Raddy is?”
TM: “Joe’s mate. Radford. Sorry. It’s just nerves, that’s all.”
PW: “You picked them up, where did you take them?”
TM: “Er, to that hotel.”
12:07JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Peers case 'about to close'
Mr Wright has no further questions for Mr McMahon. Justice Goose excuses him and he leaves the courtroom.Mr Wright says: “May I ndicate that I’m about to close my case. There’s one matter I wish to discuss with my learned friends before closing my case.”
Justice Goose asks the jury to return at 12.20pm.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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12:26KEY EVENT
Mr Wright rises and addresses the jury: “On behalf of Joseph Peers, that is the defendant’s case.”
The judge thanks him.
Next, Steven Swift, representing Kallum Radford, rises.
SS: “I can formally indicate that Kallum Radford will not give evidence on his own behalf.”
Mr Justice Goose says: “He understands this is his opportunity to explain to the jury what his case would be to give evidence. It may be open to the jury to draw an adverse inference?”
SS; “He has been advised and understands the position. There is no further evidence to call on his behalf.”
JG: “We turn to the evidence of Sean Zeisz. Mr Davis, I see the time, what would you like to do?”
Adam Davies KC, defending Zeisz, says: “We would like the opportunity of seeing Mr Zeisz before he is in the witness box. Of course once he is in the witness box he cannot be spoken to.”
Justice Goose agrees, and decides to call an early lunchtime adjournment.
The jury are asked to return at 2pm.
14:04KEY EVENT
Sean Zeisz is escorted to the witness box, sporting a navy blue jumper over a light blue shirt and short light brown hair.
The jury are called into court.
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Kallum Radford will not give evidence
The jury return to courtMr Wright rises and addresses the jury: “On behalf of Joseph Peers, that is the defendant’s case.”
The judge thanks him.
Next, Steven Swift, representing Kallum Radford, rises.
SS: “I can formally indicate that Kallum Radford will not give evidence on his own behalf.”
Mr Justice Goose says: “He understands this is his opportunity to explain to the jury what his case would be to give evidence. It may be open to the jury to draw an adverse inference?”
SS; “He has been advised and understands the position. There is no further evidence to call on his behalf.”
JG: “We turn to the evidence of Sean Zeisz. Mr Davis, I see the time, what would you like to do?”
Adam Davies KC, defending Zeisz, says: “We would like the opportunity of seeing Mr Zeisz before he is in the witness box. Of course once he is in the witness box he cannot be spoken to.”
Justice Goose agrees, and decides to call an early lunchtime adjournment.
The jury are asked to return at 2pm.
14:04KEY EVENT
Sean Zeisz to give evidence
Mr Justice Goose has entered court.Sean Zeisz is escorted to the witness box, sporting a navy blue jumper over a light blue shirt and short light brown hair.
The jury are called into court.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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14:18JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Adam Davies, KC, representing Zeisz, begins questioning his client.
AD: “At the time, let’s go back, before Glastonbury, where were you living?”
SZ: “Sefton Park.”
AD: “The address?”
SZ: “I’m not sure. Aigburth Drive.”
AD: “Going back before Glastonbury were you single or in a relationship?”
SZ: “I was in a relationship.”
AD: “Who were you in a relationship with?”
SZ: “Olivia McDowell.”
AD: “When did that relationship start?”
SZ: “2017.”
AD: “How did you meet her?”
SZ: “Through her cousin. Ian Fitzgibbon.”
AD: “Did there come a time when you moved in together?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Roughly when was that?”
SZ: “2018, 2019.”
AD: “Was that at Aigburth Drive?”
SZ: “No that was Longreach Road. it was me mum’s.”
AD: “She moved in with you and your parents?”
SZ: “No me parents never lived there.”
AD: “Did you move again.”
SZ: “To Aigburth Drive.”
AD: “What was Liv doing at the time?”
SZ: “Selling clothes, she had her own business.”
AD: “Did there ever come difficulties in your relationship?”
SZ: “There did yeah.”
AD: “When was that?”
SZ: “2020. I got caught cheating behind her back.”
AD: “What happened in the relationship.”
SZ: “It went downhill from there. She got paranoid.”
AD: “Did you split up at that point?”
SZ: “We split up for a moment then got back together.”
AD: “What happened in the relationship?”
SZ: “It just went downhill, she was paranoid, thinking I was with other girls.”
AD: “Who were you friends with at the time, as a couple?”
SZ: “At what time?”
AD: “Just before the breakup.”
SZ: “I was friends with Ashley and Lee yeah.”
AD: “They were your friends.”
SZ: “Yeah yeah course.”
AD: “Anyone else.”
SZ: “Plenty of people yeah.”
AD: “How long had you known Ashley Dale?”
SZ: “Since i was about 17.”
AD: “How long had you known Lee?”
SZ: “Since I was about 19.”
AD: “Did you get on well with Ashley?”
SZ: “Yeah course.”
AD: “What did you think of her?”
SZ: “She was a lovely girl.”
AD: “What about Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “He was a friend.”
AD: “In 2022, were you still friends with him?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
14:24JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz says: “Me friend’s cousin.”
AD: “How long had you known her?”
SZ: “Since we was about 15.”
AD: “What about Lydia Nelson?”
SZ: “Yeah i know her yeah, not too well.”
AD: “Had you spent any time with her?”
SZ: “Nights out yeah.”
AD: “Lois Bradford?”
SZ: “Don’t really know her.”
AD: “We’ve heard about the Birds Whatsapp group. Do you know any one of them?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Elle, Tia, Georgia, Lizzy, Jade, Charl?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Do you know if Lee was friends with any of them?”
SZ: “I don’t think so.”
AD: “After you in effect cheated on her, the relationship you said went sour yeah?”
SZ: “Sour yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay together?”
SZ: “We stayed together yeah.”
AD: “When we get to Glastonbury, who did you go with?”
SZ: “Me, Olivia and a friend, Adam.”
AD: “Was this something you did every year?”
SZ: “Most years yeah, we’d go to Glastonbury.”
AD: “How did you get there?”
SZ: “We drove in Adam’s car.”
AD: “How was the journey?”
SZ: “I was arguing with Olivia all the way up there. I was just saying i didn’t want to be with her any more.”
AD: “How did she take that.”
SZ: “She didn’t think I was being serious.”
AD: “Had you made up your mind you didn’t want the relationship any more?”
SZ: “I was thinking it for a while, yeah?”
AD: “What day did you get there?”
SZ: “We got there Thursday night be stayed in a hotel outside, we entered the festival Friday.”
Mr Davies asks if there was an “Issue”
SZ: “There was a little issue yeah. Olivia was making unfounded accusations, saying I’d been sleeping with a girl. She’d always be doing that since she caught me cheating.”
AD: “What did you do about that?”
SZ: “I took her back to the tent, told her to shut up.”
AD: “Did anybody hear the argument?”
SZ: “People were there yeah. She starting pointing at a girl saying ‘what’s going on with her’. I don’t know her. Her fella was like ‘what’s going on here’. I said ‘she’s on drugs, don’t worry about her. It was getting a little bit embarrassing, I had to pull her away.”
He says Olivia later “sobered up and was apologising”
Mr Davies asks if Ashley Dale and Lee Harrison were there.
SZ: “No I don’t think so, no.”
They then “went back to the tent and went asleep”
14:30JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz says: “I got punched in the nose once, I wasn’t battered like the gossip said. It was one of them things, a lad came from behind me and hit me in the nose. It was on the Saturday night, about 4 o'clock in the morning…By the gas tower, Ashley and Lee were there. I think Ashley was at the bar. A lad come behind me, smacked me in the nose, I ran away and hid behind the bar.”
AD: “Do you know who it was?”
SZ: “I know who it was, Wally.”
AD: “Do you know why?”
SZ:“A couple of months before, a mate owed a lot of money. I’ve got a friend who owed money. He weren’t paying him off. I put on for him, I rang him and said he will start paying it off. He started asking me for the money.”
AD: “Did you know what the debt was for?”
SZ: “Erm, yeah. Drugs”
AD: “You got hit in the nose. You said something about running away, what did you do?”
SZ:“He’s punched me in the nose. I got down behind the bar and hid behind the bar for a minute.”
AD: “Did anyone else hit you?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “There’s been a suggestion that Dusty hit you. Is that true?”
SZ:“No.”
AD: “Did Liv get hit?”
SZ:“That’s not true.
AD: “It was literally one punch.”
SZ: “One punch. I’ve ran away, got down and hid under the bar
AD: “What happened after that?”
SZ: “I went back over to see if Liv was ok. I’ve walked over with Lee. Lee said he got Liv and put her with Ashley. I’ve walked back the tent.”
AD: “Had he stood up for you?”
SZ:“Yeah he stood up for me yeah.”
AD: “Was Lee aware of the debt owed to Wally?”
SZ: “He wasn’t aware of that no.”
AD: “We’ve heard some of the rumours, are they true?”
SZ:“No they’re not true, no.”
AD: “Was Ashley Dale there when this incident happened?”
SZ:“I don’t think so.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Zeisz: 'Ashley Dale was a lovely girl'
Zeisz is sworn in on the bible.Adam Davies, KC, representing Zeisz, begins questioning his client.
AD: “At the time, let’s go back, before Glastonbury, where were you living?”
SZ: “Sefton Park.”
AD: “The address?”
SZ: “I’m not sure. Aigburth Drive.”
AD: “Going back before Glastonbury were you single or in a relationship?”
SZ: “I was in a relationship.”
AD: “Who were you in a relationship with?”
SZ: “Olivia McDowell.”
AD: “When did that relationship start?”
SZ: “2017.”
AD: “How did you meet her?”
SZ: “Through her cousin. Ian Fitzgibbon.”
AD: “Did there come a time when you moved in together?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Roughly when was that?”
SZ: “2018, 2019.”
AD: “Was that at Aigburth Drive?”
SZ: “No that was Longreach Road. it was me mum’s.”
AD: “She moved in with you and your parents?”
SZ: “No me parents never lived there.”
AD: “Did you move again.”
SZ: “To Aigburth Drive.”
AD: “What was Liv doing at the time?”
SZ: “Selling clothes, she had her own business.”
AD: “Did there ever come difficulties in your relationship?”
SZ: “There did yeah.”
AD: “When was that?”
SZ: “2020. I got caught cheating behind her back.”
AD: “What happened in the relationship.”
SZ: “It went downhill from there. She got paranoid.”
AD: “Did you split up at that point?”
SZ: “We split up for a moment then got back together.”
AD: “What happened in the relationship?”
SZ: “It just went downhill, she was paranoid, thinking I was with other girls.”
AD: “Who were you friends with at the time, as a couple?”
SZ: “At what time?”
AD: “Just before the breakup.”
SZ: “I was friends with Ashley and Lee yeah.”
AD: “They were your friends.”
SZ: “Yeah yeah course.”
AD: “Anyone else.”
SZ: “Plenty of people yeah.”
AD: “How long had you known Ashley Dale?”
SZ: “Since i was about 17.”
AD: “How long had you known Lee?”
SZ: “Since I was about 19.”
AD: “Did you get on well with Ashley?”
SZ: “Yeah course.”
AD: “What did you think of her?”
SZ: “She was a lovely girl.”
AD: “What about Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “He was a friend.”
AD: “In 2022, were you still friends with him?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
14:24JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Relationship 'went sour'
Mr Davies continues: “Can I ask you about the people we’ve heard about, some of Ashley’s friends. Sophie O’Connor?”Zeisz says: “Me friend’s cousin.”
AD: “How long had you known her?”
SZ: “Since we was about 15.”
AD: “What about Lydia Nelson?”
SZ: “Yeah i know her yeah, not too well.”
AD: “Had you spent any time with her?”
SZ: “Nights out yeah.”
AD: “Lois Bradford?”
SZ: “Don’t really know her.”
AD: “We’ve heard about the Birds Whatsapp group. Do you know any one of them?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Elle, Tia, Georgia, Lizzy, Jade, Charl?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Do you know if Lee was friends with any of them?”
SZ: “I don’t think so.”
AD: “After you in effect cheated on her, the relationship you said went sour yeah?”
SZ: “Sour yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay together?”
SZ: “We stayed together yeah.”
AD: “When we get to Glastonbury, who did you go with?”
SZ: “Me, Olivia and a friend, Adam.”
AD: “Was this something you did every year?”
SZ: “Most years yeah, we’d go to Glastonbury.”
AD: “How did you get there?”
SZ: “We drove in Adam’s car.”
AD: “How was the journey?”
SZ: “I was arguing with Olivia all the way up there. I was just saying i didn’t want to be with her any more.”
AD: “How did she take that.”
SZ: “She didn’t think I was being serious.”
AD: “Had you made up your mind you didn’t want the relationship any more?”
SZ: “I was thinking it for a while, yeah?”
AD: “What day did you get there?”
SZ: “We got there Thursday night be stayed in a hotel outside, we entered the festival Friday.”
Mr Davies asks if there was an “Issue”
SZ: “There was a little issue yeah. Olivia was making unfounded accusations, saying I’d been sleeping with a girl. She’d always be doing that since she caught me cheating.”
AD: “What did you do about that?”
SZ: “I took her back to the tent, told her to shut up.”
AD: “Did anybody hear the argument?”
SZ: “People were there yeah. She starting pointing at a girl saying ‘what’s going on with her’. I don’t know her. Her fella was like ‘what’s going on here’. I said ‘she’s on drugs, don’t worry about her. It was getting a little bit embarrassing, I had to pull her away.”
He says Olivia later “sobered up and was apologising”
Mr Davies asks if Ashley Dale and Lee Harrison were there.
SZ: “No I don’t think so, no.”
They then “went back to the tent and went asleep”
14:30JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz got 'punched in nose' in Glastonbury
Mr Davies says: “We’ve heard about some incidents where you got hit. Can you tell us about how that came about and what happened?”Zeisz says: “I got punched in the nose once, I wasn’t battered like the gossip said. It was one of them things, a lad came from behind me and hit me in the nose. It was on the Saturday night, about 4 o'clock in the morning…By the gas tower, Ashley and Lee were there. I think Ashley was at the bar. A lad come behind me, smacked me in the nose, I ran away and hid behind the bar.”
AD: “Do you know who it was?”
SZ: “I know who it was, Wally.”
AD: “Do you know why?”
SZ:“A couple of months before, a mate owed a lot of money. I’ve got a friend who owed money. He weren’t paying him off. I put on for him, I rang him and said he will start paying it off. He started asking me for the money.”
AD: “Did you know what the debt was for?”
SZ: “Erm, yeah. Drugs”
AD: “You got hit in the nose. You said something about running away, what did you do?”
SZ:“He’s punched me in the nose. I got down behind the bar and hid behind the bar for a minute.”
AD: “Did anyone else hit you?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “There’s been a suggestion that Dusty hit you. Is that true?”
SZ:“No.”
AD: “Did Liv get hit?”
SZ:“That’s not true.
AD: “It was literally one punch.”
SZ: “One punch. I’ve ran away, got down and hid under the bar
AD: “What happened after that?”
SZ: “I went back over to see if Liv was ok. I’ve walked over with Lee. Lee said he got Liv and put her with Ashley. I’ve walked back the tent.”
AD: “Had he stood up for you?”
SZ:“Yeah he stood up for me yeah.”
AD: “Was Lee aware of the debt owed to Wally?”
SZ: “He wasn’t aware of that no.”
AD: “We’ve heard some of the rumours, are they true?”
SZ:“No they’re not true, no.”
AD: “Was Ashley Dale there when this incident happened?”
SZ:“I don’t think so.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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14:36JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz replies: “Yeah she come back the tent.”
AD: “What happened then?”
SZ: “She said she’d been arguing with Wally and all that. I said why?”
AD: “What else was said?”
SZ: “I weren't happy that she didn’t come back sooner, there was a little bit of arguing.”
AD: “This was Saturday, effectively Sunday morning.”
SZ: “Saturday night yeah.”
AD: “Did she stay in the tent with you?”
SZ: “Yeah. we went asleep and woke up on the sunday. We was just arguing again all day. I was stressed out, I’d had enough. I wanted to go home. I didn’t want to sit in Glastonbury any more.”
Zeisz said he went for a shower
SZ: “She left me flip flops in the showers.”
AD: “What flip flops were they?”
SZ: “Good ones.”
AD: “Do you know what they were?”
SZ: “Louis Vuitton.”
AD: “Good ones. When you found that out what did you do?”
SZ: “I was arguing with her, saying I don’t want to be with her no more.”
AD: “Had they been lost?”
SZ: “No, stolen. We went back the showers and they were gone.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “We went down the stages with different people. I had a good time like yeah. No further incidents.”
AD: “What about later that evening?”
SZ: “We’ve seen Lee, Ashley and Dusty.”
AD: “Any difficulties then?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Did there come a point where you saw Wally again?”
SZ: “I seen all his friends yeah.”
AD: “Was there a problem?”
SZ: “That was later on, about 11 o’clock. When I went to stone circle about 5 or 6 in the morning i’ve seen all Wally’s friends.”
AD: “Did you stay with Lee and Ashley and the others?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah yeah.”
AD: “Did you see anyone else you knew?”
SZ: “My cousin Ellie.”
AD: “What happened with her?”
SZ: “She could see I was arguing with Olivia and asked me to come with them.”
AD: “Did you go off.”
SZ: “Yeah I got off. Left her with Lee and Ashley.”
AD: “You left Liv with Lee and Ashley. what happened next?”
Zeisz says it was by now around midnight or in the early hours.
Subsequently he saw Wally and his friends.
Zeisz says: “He asked me was I alright. I sorted it now. Just forget about it all, it’s alright. I was expecting trouble when I seen them do you know what I mean?”
AD: “Was that the end of it?”
SZ: “That was the end.”
AD: “Was there any repercussions?”
SZ: “No, nothing.”
14:45JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
SZ: “We got a coach to the train station.”
AD: “Did you get a train?”
SZ: “No, I spoke to my friend who was driving home. He said I’ll pick you up.”
He says this friend was Dom Ashton.
SZ: “Did you go home with Dom?”
AD: “Yeah.”
SZ: “What happened.”
AD: “I got a phone call off me friend about Olivia, said she’d been flirting with Dusty, going around with arms around with each other. We argued about that. She said there was nothing in it, he’s just a kid.”
AD: “When you arrived back in Liverpool where did you go?”
SZ: “I dropped live at Aigburth Drive and I went home to Longreach.”
AD: “Did you see her again that week?”
SZ: “I popped in yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay in Liverpool after this?”
SZ: “A couple of days later I went to Barcelona. For my cousin’s stag do.”
He says the wedding was due to take place in Ibiza at the end of August.
Mr Davies asks about Liv.
SZ: “I thought I needed some space away from her. I was sick of arguing.”
AD: “How long was the stag do meant to be?”
SZ: “Friday till Monday.”
AD: “Did you come back on the Monday?”
SZ: “I stayed. In a hotel. I stayed about a week later.”
AD: “Then where did you go?”
SZ: “Valencia, then Portugal.”
AD: “Did you stay in Valencia?”
SZ: “No no no.”
AD: “You went to Valencia to travel to Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Were you on your own.”
SZ: “No, I was with Joe [Peers].”
AD: “How did that come about?”
SZ: “He was in Barcelona. He’d split up with his girlfriend as well, I text him asking him to come over.”
AD: “You met him in Barcelona?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
Mr Davies asks when Peers arrived.
SZ: “A couple of days, three or four days in Barcelona with Joe.”
He is asked if had been in contact with Liv.
SZ: “Yeah I spoke to her.”
AD: “Why was that?”
SZ: “She was my girlfriend.”
AD: “Did you speak to her in Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “How long were you in Portugal?”
SZ: “Three weeks.”
AD: “Where were you staying?”
SZ: “At a friend’s apartment.”
AD: “Did you speak to Liv while you were in Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah. there was an argument yeah”
AD: “What was that about?”
SZ: “The girl who I'd been caught cheating with, I'd messaged her.“
14:53JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
AD: “We know the date is July 21 when Rikki committed suicide. Was Rikki a friend of yours?”
Zeisz says: “A close friend.”
AD: “In the early hours of the 22nd, we have a voice call from you to Niall Barry?”.
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Did you see Niall Barry in Glastonbury.”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “02.25, you send a WhatsApp message saying ‘lad Rikki has killed himself. When did you get that information?”
SZ: “I was eating me dinner that night, about 9, 10 o'clock”
AD: “Can you remember who called you?”
SZ: “Ian Fitzgibbon.”
AD: “How did you feel about that?”
SZ: “Gutted, heartbroken.”
AD: “Then Niall doesn’t reply until 10 to 11 in the morning. “He says ‘what’, then you say ‘Rikki dead’. We then have a message from you; ‘Do me a favour bro my bird car on Dusty path go smash the window screen now. Are you by rs. Please bro, smash her car up’. ‘Yeah man says Niall’. ‘Asap’, says you. ‘I’m by rs’. ‘Please bro please, brick her window. I can’t believe this lad. Lad her car on Dusty path. Rikki’. Which is what Niall is talking about not being able to believe. And ‘Dust been bullying Rikki lad’. Why were you asking someone to do that?”
Zeisz says: “She was betraying Dusty. She’s sitting in Dusty’s. In my mind Dusty had been bullying Rikki and that was why he killed himself.”
AD: “You say ‘he threw himself under Huyton train station been crying all night’ he said. ‘Lad can’t even talk’. Why were you holding Dusty responsible? You’re saying Rikki was being bullied by Dusty. What was it that you had been aware of?”
SZ: “I was aware they were all posting stuff online about him being a grass. It was the gossip at the time, everyone was saying it was Dusty’s fault. I’d seen a post yeah.”
AD: “Where are you at this time?”
SZ: “Portugul.”
AD: “Had you seen Liv’s car on Dusty’s path?”
SZ: “No someone had told me.”
AD: “Do you know what it was about. Did you have any knowledge why they were posting messages calling him a grass?”
SZ: “Something about weed got thrown out a window. The house got raided. They found weed in Rikki’s. He was going to jail. He didn’t own up to weed found on another estate. They called him a grass. That was direct knowledge yeah.”
AD: “From who?”
SZ: “Rikki.”
AD: “This is all happening when youve been crying all night, and nad had heard about Rikki’s suicide?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “What did you do?”
SZ: “I was crying wasn’t I.”
AD: “Did you stay in Portgual?”
SZ: “No I come home the next day.”
15:05JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Mr Davies reads: “You really picking that smackhead up from town”.
AD: “Who are you referring to?”
SZ: “Dusty.”
Mr Davies reads: “A
little tramp, picking him up from town. You are vomit. Got that little rat in the car.”
AD: “What’s the background to this?”
SZ: “She’s driving round with Dusty.”
AD: “Why were you so concerned about that?”
SZ: “She’s betraying Rikki. She was Rikki's friend as well. She’s driving round with him. He’s bullied him to death.”
AD: “Had you had any disagreement with Dusty at this stage?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Who are you arguing with, him or Olivia?”
SZ: “Olivia.”
AD: “She’d been seen driving around with him?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
Mr Davies reads further messages: “You best not be like a little sweat”. He asks: “What does that mean?”
SZ: “Erm. sweat. It means a slag doesn’t it.”
Mr Davies reads: “Rocking round with that Dusty. You going.”
SZ: “I think it might be the balloon release for Rikki.”
Zeisz is shown a picture of him, Barry and Fitzgibbon which he says was taken at “Rikki’s balloon release”.
The photo was recovered from Ashley’s phone
AD: “Did you see Ashley?”
SZ: “I don’t think so.”
AD: “Presumably it’s not Ashley who took this photo.”
SZ: “No, no, no.”
He says he cannot remember who took the photo.
The court is now shown 16 photographs which he says are “of Rikki” which he says he has been sent by Ms McDowell
Mr Davies reads: “Then you’ve got stay away from me. Golly in your face in front of everyone. Send you home covered in piss.”
He says: “ Looking at these messages now, how do you feel?”
SZ: “Embarrassed, childish.”
AD: “Were you angry with her?”
SZ: “I was yeah.”
Mr Davies reads: “Slags go with slags”
SZ: “She was hanging round with prostitutes, real prostitutes.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Issue with Wally 'sorted'
Mr Davies continues: “Did you see Liv again that night?”Zeisz replies: “Yeah she come back the tent.”
AD: “What happened then?”
SZ: “She said she’d been arguing with Wally and all that. I said why?”
AD: “What else was said?”
SZ: “I weren't happy that she didn’t come back sooner, there was a little bit of arguing.”
AD: “This was Saturday, effectively Sunday morning.”
SZ: “Saturday night yeah.”
AD: “Did she stay in the tent with you?”
SZ: “Yeah. we went asleep and woke up on the sunday. We was just arguing again all day. I was stressed out, I’d had enough. I wanted to go home. I didn’t want to sit in Glastonbury any more.”
Zeisz said he went for a shower
SZ: “She left me flip flops in the showers.”
AD: “What flip flops were they?”
SZ: “Good ones.”
AD: “Do you know what they were?”
SZ: “Louis Vuitton.”
AD: “Good ones. When you found that out what did you do?”
SZ: “I was arguing with her, saying I don’t want to be with her no more.”
AD: “Had they been lost?”
SZ: “No, stolen. We went back the showers and they were gone.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “We went down the stages with different people. I had a good time like yeah. No further incidents.”
AD: “What about later that evening?”
SZ: “We’ve seen Lee, Ashley and Dusty.”
AD: “Any difficulties then?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Did there come a point where you saw Wally again?”
SZ: “I seen all his friends yeah.”
AD: “Was there a problem?”
SZ: “That was later on, about 11 o’clock. When I went to stone circle about 5 or 6 in the morning i’ve seen all Wally’s friends.”
AD: “Did you stay with Lee and Ashley and the others?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah yeah.”
AD: “Did you see anyone else you knew?”
SZ: “My cousin Ellie.”
AD: “What happened with her?”
SZ: “She could see I was arguing with Olivia and asked me to come with them.”
AD: “Did you go off.”
SZ: “Yeah I got off. Left her with Lee and Ashley.”
AD: “You left Liv with Lee and Ashley. what happened next?”
Zeisz says it was by now around midnight or in the early hours.
Subsequently he saw Wally and his friends.
Zeisz says: “He asked me was I alright. I sorted it now. Just forget about it all, it’s alright. I was expecting trouble when I seen them do you know what I mean?”
AD: “Was that the end of it?”
SZ: “That was the end.”
AD: “Was there any repercussions?”
SZ: “No, nothing.”
14:45JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Row after Zeisz 'texts other woman'
Zeisz says he left the festival on the Monday morning with Ms McDowell.SZ: “We got a coach to the train station.”
AD: “Did you get a train?”
SZ: “No, I spoke to my friend who was driving home. He said I’ll pick you up.”
He says this friend was Dom Ashton.
SZ: “Did you go home with Dom?”
AD: “Yeah.”
SZ: “What happened.”
AD: “I got a phone call off me friend about Olivia, said she’d been flirting with Dusty, going around with arms around with each other. We argued about that. She said there was nothing in it, he’s just a kid.”
AD: “When you arrived back in Liverpool where did you go?”
SZ: “I dropped live at Aigburth Drive and I went home to Longreach.”
AD: “Did you see her again that week?”
SZ: “I popped in yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay in Liverpool after this?”
SZ: “A couple of days later I went to Barcelona. For my cousin’s stag do.”
He says the wedding was due to take place in Ibiza at the end of August.
Mr Davies asks about Liv.
SZ: “I thought I needed some space away from her. I was sick of arguing.”
AD: “How long was the stag do meant to be?”
SZ: “Friday till Monday.”
AD: “Did you come back on the Monday?”
SZ: “I stayed. In a hotel. I stayed about a week later.”
AD: “Then where did you go?”
SZ: “Valencia, then Portugal.”
AD: “Did you stay in Valencia?”
SZ: “No no no.”
AD: “You went to Valencia to travel to Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Were you on your own.”
SZ: “No, I was with Joe [Peers].”
AD: “How did that come about?”
SZ: “He was in Barcelona. He’d split up with his girlfriend as well, I text him asking him to come over.”
AD: “You met him in Barcelona?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
Mr Davies asks when Peers arrived.
SZ: “A couple of days, three or four days in Barcelona with Joe.”
He is asked if had been in contact with Liv.
SZ: “Yeah I spoke to her.”
AD: “Why was that?”
SZ: “She was my girlfriend.”
AD: “Did you speak to her in Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “How long were you in Portugal?”
SZ: “Three weeks.”
AD: “Where were you staying?”
SZ: “At a friend’s apartment.”
AD: “Did you speak to Liv while you were in Portugal?”
SZ: “Yeah. there was an argument yeah”
AD: “What was that about?”
SZ: “The girl who I'd been caught cheating with, I'd messaged her.“
14:53JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz: 'Dusty bullied Rikki Warnick over weed'
Mr Davies moves on to the suicide of Rikki Warnick.AD: “We know the date is July 21 when Rikki committed suicide. Was Rikki a friend of yours?”
Zeisz says: “A close friend.”
AD: “In the early hours of the 22nd, we have a voice call from you to Niall Barry?”.
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Did you see Niall Barry in Glastonbury.”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “02.25, you send a WhatsApp message saying ‘lad Rikki has killed himself. When did you get that information?”
SZ: “I was eating me dinner that night, about 9, 10 o'clock”
AD: “Can you remember who called you?”
SZ: “Ian Fitzgibbon.”
AD: “How did you feel about that?”
SZ: “Gutted, heartbroken.”
AD: “Then Niall doesn’t reply until 10 to 11 in the morning. “He says ‘what’, then you say ‘Rikki dead’. We then have a message from you; ‘Do me a favour bro my bird car on Dusty path go smash the window screen now. Are you by rs. Please bro, smash her car up’. ‘Yeah man says Niall’. ‘Asap’, says you. ‘I’m by rs’. ‘Please bro please, brick her window. I can’t believe this lad. Lad her car on Dusty path. Rikki’. Which is what Niall is talking about not being able to believe. And ‘Dust been bullying Rikki lad’. Why were you asking someone to do that?”
Zeisz says: “She was betraying Dusty. She’s sitting in Dusty’s. In my mind Dusty had been bullying Rikki and that was why he killed himself.”
AD: “You say ‘he threw himself under Huyton train station been crying all night’ he said. ‘Lad can’t even talk’. Why were you holding Dusty responsible? You’re saying Rikki was being bullied by Dusty. What was it that you had been aware of?”
SZ: “I was aware they were all posting stuff online about him being a grass. It was the gossip at the time, everyone was saying it was Dusty’s fault. I’d seen a post yeah.”
AD: “Where are you at this time?”
SZ: “Portugul.”
AD: “Had you seen Liv’s car on Dusty’s path?”
SZ: “No someone had told me.”
AD: “Do you know what it was about. Did you have any knowledge why they were posting messages calling him a grass?”
SZ: “Something about weed got thrown out a window. The house got raided. They found weed in Rikki’s. He was going to jail. He didn’t own up to weed found on another estate. They called him a grass. That was direct knowledge yeah.”
AD: “From who?”
SZ: “Rikki.”
AD: “This is all happening when youve been crying all night, and nad had heard about Rikki’s suicide?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “What did you do?”
SZ: “I was crying wasn’t I.”
AD: “Did you stay in Portgual?”
SZ: “No I come home the next day.”
15:05JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Liv was betraying Rikki'
Zeisz is shown a series of messages between him and Miss McDowell.Mr Davies reads: “You really picking that smackhead up from town”.
AD: “Who are you referring to?”
SZ: “Dusty.”
Mr Davies reads: “A
little tramp, picking him up from town. You are vomit. Got that little rat in the car.”AD: “What’s the background to this?”
SZ: “She’s driving round with Dusty.”
AD: “Why were you so concerned about that?”
SZ: “She’s betraying Rikki. She was Rikki's friend as well. She’s driving round with him. He’s bullied him to death.”
AD: “Had you had any disagreement with Dusty at this stage?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Who are you arguing with, him or Olivia?”
SZ: “Olivia.”
AD: “She’d been seen driving around with him?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
Mr Davies reads further messages: “You best not be like a little sweat”. He asks: “What does that mean?”
SZ: “Erm. sweat. It means a slag doesn’t it.”
Mr Davies reads: “Rocking round with that Dusty. You going.”
SZ: “I think it might be the balloon release for Rikki.”
Zeisz is shown a picture of him, Barry and Fitzgibbon which he says was taken at “Rikki’s balloon release”.
The photo was recovered from Ashley’s phone
AD: “Did you see Ashley?”
SZ: “I don’t think so.”
AD: “Presumably it’s not Ashley who took this photo.”
SZ: “No, no, no.”
He says he cannot remember who took the photo.
The court is now shown 16 photographs which he says are “of Rikki” which he says he has been sent by Ms McDowell
Mr Davies reads: “Then you’ve got stay away from me. Golly in your face in front of everyone. Send you home covered in piss.”
He says: “ Looking at these messages now, how do you feel?”
SZ: “Embarrassed, childish.”
AD: “Were you angry with her?”
SZ: “I was yeah.”
Mr Davies reads: “Slags go with slags”
SZ: “She was hanging round with prostitutes, real prostitutes.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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15:08KEY EVENT
Zeisz says: “Nothing.”
AD: “What were you doing for a living at this time?”
SZ: “I was erm, selling drugs.”
AD: “How were you selling drugs?”
SZ: “Just getting off Peter and giving to Paul, A to B.”
AD: “What were you earning?”
SZ: “A couple of grand every deal.”
AD: “Were you going out on the street and selling drugs?”
SZ: “No, no, no.”
AD: “You were putting people together?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
AD: “Had you been doing that for a while?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Who were you doing that with?”
SZ: “Niall.”
AD: “In the weeks that followed Rikki’s funeral, were there any disagreements with anybody?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Were you involved in any trouble with anybody?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “What about your relationship with Liv?”
SZ: “It was on and off. We still went out, going on walks and drives around the park.”
AD: “Had you seen Ashley Dale or Lee Harrison before the shooting?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Had you been to their house?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Do you know when that was?”
SZ: “I can’t no, I couldn’t tell you.”
AD: “Was it close to the time of the shooting?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:10JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz: “I give him drugs, sell on yeah.”
AD: “Was there any deal? Had there been a deal?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “I give him drugs about two weeks before, I was waiting for the money off him.”
Justice Goose asks: “Who had you given drugs to?”
SZ: “Niall.”
AD: “Was it a lot?”
SZ: “Yes.”
Justice Goose asks: “What sort of deals were you doing?”
SZ: “Niall owed for a key.”
Zeisz says it was £27,000 for a kilo.
AD: “Just before the shooting, had you had any money by then?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Had you paid for these drugs?”
SZ: “No, no. Me friend was on me for the money.”
AD: “What did you do about it?”
SZ: “I was just waiting for the money.”
AD: “Did you contact Niall Barry?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Loads of times”
AD: “Where was Mr Barry living at that time?”
SZ: “Pilch Lane.”
AD: “Do you know whose flat that was?”
SZ: “I thought it was Kershaw’s.”
AD: “Had you been to the flat before the night of the 19th and 20th?”
SZ: “I’d been the flat. A couple of times, yeah.”
15:28JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Why did you end up going there?”
SZ: “To watch the boxing.”
AD: “You went to watch the boxing. How did you end up going to the boxing?”
SZ: “I drove.”
AD: “Why.”
SZ: “To watch the boxing.”
AD: “How did you know about it?”
SZ: “Joe [Peers] text me and asked me to come watch it.”
AD: “What did he say?”
SZ: “He said we’re watching the boxing, come round. About 6, 7 o'clock he text me.”
AD: “You went to the flat. It was the Oleksandr Usyk fight. Do you accept you were driving the silver Mercedes?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “You arrived at approximately 21.22. That’s the mercedes arriving, can you see it on the screen?
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
AD: “21.13 is the actual time. Where did you park?”
SZ: “Opposite the chippy.”
AD: “You went into the chippy, what did you order?”
SZ: “Food yeah. Salt and pepper chicken I got.”
AD: “Had you been there before?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah yeah. I’d order the same thing every time at that chippy. Very rarely do I go to that chippy.”
AD: “You’d ordered your salt and pepper chicken. You got your food then what?”
SZ: “I was ringing Joe to tell him I was outside.”
AD: “You go in at 21.27.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Who let you in?”
SZ: “I think it was Ian.”
AD: “Who was there?”
SZ: “Niall, Kershaw, Joe, Witham and Ian.”
AD: “When you got there, who was sitting where?”
SZ: “Just all on the couch, Witham was standing up. I was in the kitchen eating me food.”
AD: “Witham was standing up?”
SZ: “He was on the booze yeah.”
AD: “What was he saying?”
SZ: “Just going on.”
AD: “Was he quiet?”
SZ: “No, he was loud.”
AD: “Do you know what he was talking about?”
SZ: “Not too sure, about the football that day, I don’t know.”
AD: “How long were you in the kitchen?”
SZ: “15 minutes while I ate me food. I sat down and built a spliff.”
AD: “Was that your cannabis?”
SZ: “No it was on the tray.”
AD: “What was the atmosphere like?”
SZ: “Everyone was stoned, Witham was on the booze.
AD: “We can see two messages. One said ‘you out are you?. That’s from you to Liv. That’s while you’re at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “I can’t remember it no.”
AD: “She replied ‘no’. We haven’t got any messages at that point, any others. You then get another messages. She sends a message saying ‘in my nans’. What happened next. Is this still before the fight or after the fight?”
SZ: “Before the fight.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “Everyone was chilling. Niall asked Witham what he was doing. You getting off lad, he said we’re all stoned. He was pissed.”
AD: “Witham was loud.”
SZ: “Loud yeah.”
AD: “Niall asked him to leave?”
SZ: “In a nice way. Joe stood up and said he was going home.”
AD: “What did you say?”
SZ: “I said why. Stay. You just got me round here to watch the boxing. Sit down, chill out. He said he was going home to see his dad.”
AD: “Why did you think he was going home?”
SZ: “To watch the boxing I think”
AD: “He’d asked you to watch the boxing with him at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “Exactly yeah.”
AD: “Why was he suddenly going.”
SZ: “I’m not sure, I asked him to stay.”
AD: “But he didn’t stay.”
SZ: “No he left.”
AD: “Witham didn’t stay.”
SZ: “Witham didn’t stay, no.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “It was just me, Niall, Kershaw and Ian. we watched the boxing.”
AD: “What time did the boxing start?”
SZ: “I can’t remember that, no.”
AD: “We can see there’s a call to Witham from Mr Fitzgibbon. there’s a call from you to Mr Peers. Did you speak to him?”
SZ: “I don’t think so no.”
AD: “Another call from Fitzgibbon to Peers and Fitzgibbon to Witham. you then have a call, 23 seconds to Peers, about 10 past 11.”
SZ: “To come back round, to get ready for the UFC. He said do you need anything? I said lad, we need some bifters. Cigarettes.”
AD: “You watched the Usyk fight?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay at Pilch Lane after the fight?”
SZ: “Yeah, we were gonna watch the UFC.”
AD: “What time was the UFC fight?”
SZ: “Erm, it started after the Usyk and Joshua fight I think, the build up.”
AD: “Like with boxing, is there a main fight.”
SZ: “Yeah, the main event weren’t until 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.”
AD: “Where was this being held.”
SZ: “In America.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “I dozed off asleep. Ian woke me up, said he was going home. He said here y’ar do you want a lift. I got up. Niall said no, stay, I’ll give you the dough in the morning. I wish I’d have got off.”
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Zeisz: 'I was selling drugs with Niall Barry'
Mr Davies reads: : “What was happening after Rikki’s funeral?”Zeisz says: “Nothing.”
AD: “What were you doing for a living at this time?”
SZ: “I was erm, selling drugs.”
AD: “How were you selling drugs?”
SZ: “Just getting off Peter and giving to Paul, A to B.”
AD: “What were you earning?”
SZ: “A couple of grand every deal.”
AD: “Were you going out on the street and selling drugs?”
SZ: “No, no, no.”
AD: “You were putting people together?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
AD: “Had you been doing that for a while?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Who were you doing that with?”
SZ: “Niall.”
AD: “In the weeks that followed Rikki’s funeral, were there any disagreements with anybody?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Were you involved in any trouble with anybody?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “What about your relationship with Liv?”
SZ: “It was on and off. We still went out, going on walks and drives around the park.”
AD: “Had you seen Ashley Dale or Lee Harrison before the shooting?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Had you been to their house?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Do you know when that was?”
SZ: “I can’t no, I couldn’t tell you.”
AD: “Was it close to the time of the shooting?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:10JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Niall Barry: 'Owed £27,000 for a kilo'
Mr Davies asks: “What was your arrangement with Niall Barry?”Zeisz: “I give him drugs, sell on yeah.”
AD: “Was there any deal? Had there been a deal?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “I give him drugs about two weeks before, I was waiting for the money off him.”
Justice Goose asks: “Who had you given drugs to?”
SZ: “Niall.”
AD: “Was it a lot?”
SZ: “Yes.”
Justice Goose asks: “What sort of deals were you doing?”
SZ: “Niall owed for a key.”
Zeisz says it was £27,000 for a kilo.
AD: “Just before the shooting, had you had any money by then?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Had you paid for these drugs?”
SZ: “No, no. Me friend was on me for the money.”
AD: “What did you do about it?”
SZ: “I was just waiting for the money.”
AD: “Did you contact Niall Barry?”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah, yeah. Loads of times”
AD: “Where was Mr Barry living at that time?”
SZ: “Pilch Lane.”
AD: “Do you know whose flat that was?”
SZ: “I thought it was Kershaw’s.”
AD: “Had you been to the flat before the night of the 19th and 20th?”
SZ: “I’d been the flat. A couple of times, yeah.”
15:28JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'Everyone stoned' but 'Witham on the booze'
Mr Davies says: “Let’s move forward to August 20. We know you ended up at Pilch Lane?”SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Why did you end up going there?”
SZ: “To watch the boxing.”
AD: “You went to watch the boxing. How did you end up going to the boxing?”
SZ: “I drove.”
AD: “Why.”
SZ: “To watch the boxing.”
AD: “How did you know about it?”
SZ: “Joe [Peers] text me and asked me to come watch it.”
AD: “What did he say?”
SZ: “He said we’re watching the boxing, come round. About 6, 7 o'clock he text me.”
AD: “You went to the flat. It was the Oleksandr Usyk fight. Do you accept you were driving the silver Mercedes?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “You arrived at approximately 21.22. That’s the mercedes arriving, can you see it on the screen?
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
AD: “21.13 is the actual time. Where did you park?”
SZ: “Opposite the chippy.”
AD: “You went into the chippy, what did you order?”
SZ: “Food yeah. Salt and pepper chicken I got.”
AD: “Had you been there before?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah yeah. I’d order the same thing every time at that chippy. Very rarely do I go to that chippy.”
AD: “You’d ordered your salt and pepper chicken. You got your food then what?”
SZ: “I was ringing Joe to tell him I was outside.”
AD: “You go in at 21.27.”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Who let you in?”
SZ: “I think it was Ian.”
AD: “Who was there?”
SZ: “Niall, Kershaw, Joe, Witham and Ian.”
AD: “When you got there, who was sitting where?”
SZ: “Just all on the couch, Witham was standing up. I was in the kitchen eating me food.”
AD: “Witham was standing up?”
SZ: “He was on the booze yeah.”
AD: “What was he saying?”
SZ: “Just going on.”
AD: “Was he quiet?”
SZ: “No, he was loud.”
AD: “Do you know what he was talking about?”
SZ: “Not too sure, about the football that day, I don’t know.”
AD: “How long were you in the kitchen?”
SZ: “15 minutes while I ate me food. I sat down and built a spliff.”
AD: “Was that your cannabis?”
SZ: “No it was on the tray.”
AD: “What was the atmosphere like?”
SZ: “Everyone was stoned, Witham was on the booze.
AD: “We can see two messages. One said ‘you out are you?. That’s from you to Liv. That’s while you’re at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “I can’t remember it no.”
AD: “She replied ‘no’. We haven’t got any messages at that point, any others. You then get another messages. She sends a message saying ‘in my nans’. What happened next. Is this still before the fight or after the fight?”
SZ: “Before the fight.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “Everyone was chilling. Niall asked Witham what he was doing. You getting off lad, he said we’re all stoned. He was pissed.”
AD: “Witham was loud.”
SZ: “Loud yeah.”
AD: “Niall asked him to leave?”
SZ: “In a nice way. Joe stood up and said he was going home.”
AD: “What did you say?”
SZ: “I said why. Stay. You just got me round here to watch the boxing. Sit down, chill out. He said he was going home to see his dad.”
AD: “Why did you think he was going home?”
SZ: “To watch the boxing I think”
AD: “He’d asked you to watch the boxing with him at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “Exactly yeah.”
AD: “Why was he suddenly going.”
SZ: “I’m not sure, I asked him to stay.”
AD: “But he didn’t stay.”
SZ: “No he left.”
AD: “Witham didn’t stay.”
SZ: “Witham didn’t stay, no.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “It was just me, Niall, Kershaw and Ian. we watched the boxing.”
AD: “What time did the boxing start?”
SZ: “I can’t remember that, no.”
AD: “We can see there’s a call to Witham from Mr Fitzgibbon. there’s a call from you to Mr Peers. Did you speak to him?”
SZ: “I don’t think so no.”
AD: “Another call from Fitzgibbon to Peers and Fitzgibbon to Witham. you then have a call, 23 seconds to Peers, about 10 past 11.”
SZ: “To come back round, to get ready for the UFC. He said do you need anything? I said lad, we need some bifters. Cigarettes.”
AD: “You watched the Usyk fight?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Did you stay at Pilch Lane after the fight?”
SZ: “Yeah, we were gonna watch the UFC.”
AD: “What time was the UFC fight?”
SZ: “Erm, it started after the Usyk and Joshua fight I think, the build up.”
AD: “Like with boxing, is there a main fight.”
SZ: “Yeah, the main event weren’t until 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning.”
AD: “Where was this being held.”
SZ: “In America.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “I dozed off asleep. Ian woke me up, said he was going home. He said here y’ar do you want a lift. I got up. Niall said no, stay, I’ll give you the dough in the morning. I wish I’d have got off.”
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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15:35KEY EVENT
Zeisz says: “Yeah.”
AD: “Niall asked you to stay?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “He said he would pay you the money the next day?”
SZ: “In the morning yeah.”
AD: “How was he gonna do that?”
SZ: “I believe he was selling cannabis.”
He is asked how much cannabis was in the flat and replies “About two, three k’s”
Zeisz is asked about a jacket seen in pictures taken inside the flat. His DNA was found on the garment
AD: “Have you ever worn it?”
SZ: “Never in my life. I wouldn’t wear the jacket.”
AD: “Have you ever touched it?”
SZ: “It was found in the bedroom, that’s where I slept.”
Mr Davies returns to the early hours of August 21.
SZ: “After I got off, Niall said you can stay here in the bed. I didn’t go asleep, I was just lying on the bed texting.”
AD: “There’s two attempted calls. You tried Peers twice.”
SZ: “It was when I left. Joe said he was coming back round to watch the UFC. Niall said try Joe,I thought he was coming round. He said he was.”
AD: “About 12 minutes later, we can see a call from Joe to you. About 19 seconds. Did you speak to him. What was said?”
SZ: “He said are you still in the flat? I’ll be round now. I said don’t forget ciggies.”
AD: “What happened after this call?”
SZ: “I waited for him, stayed, lied on the bed.”
AD: “We then see another call. Can you see, 1.18, from you to him again. That’s nearly half an hour after that first call. 20 minutes, sorry. Why did you call him again?”
SZ: “Cos he said he’d be round now. He was 20 minutes, it shouldn't have took him 20 minutes. It’s a five minute walk from his mum’s to there yeah.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “He come round. He phoned me and said he was outside.”
AD: “Did he enter the flat?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
AD: “Was he with anybody?”
SZ: “Witham.”
AD: “What did you think when he entered with Witham?”
SZ: “He didn’t tell me he was with Witham on the phone. I got up and built a spliff and smoked half a spliff.”
AD: “Was Witham still loud?”
SZ: “No he was quiet, very quiet.”
AD: “Then what happened.”
SZ: “I had half a spliff and went back in the bedroom, I was texting away again.”
AD: “Did you go to sleep.”
SZ: “I dozed off yeah, but it was more texting.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “I couldn’t tell you what time it was, Niall came in saying ‘Witham’s saying he shot the house up, Saz’s house’. I can’t recall the time.”
AD: “Saz being Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:39KEY EVENT
Zeisz: “No.”
AD: “Can you remember the exact words?”
SZ: “This soft c***s saying he’s shot Saz’s house up.”
AD: “Did he use Witham’s name?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Were you aware of any difficulties between Mr Witham and Lee Harrison.”
SZ: “In the past, yeah”
AD: “But at this point?”
SZ: “At that time I weren’t aware of any current issues, no. I don’t know what goes on with them every day, I don’t know.”
AD; “Had you said anything after Mr Barry said that to you.”
SZ: “I got up and asked him a few questions. I can’t remember exactly, I didn’t believe him.”
AD: “Then what happened.”
SZ: “Nothing. I said he’s chatting him, he’s full of , and I went back to bed.”
AD: “Were you awake for the rest of the morning?”
SZ: “No no no I was asleep, dozed off. I think i woke up a couple of times, checked my phone.”
AD: “Was anything on your phone about this, what had happened?”
SZ: “No no no no.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “I was asleep. I was woke up in the morning by Niall. He was saying ‘Witham’s killed Ashley’, screaming. He said I think, I think he shot Ashley or killed Ashley. I didn’t know what he was on about.”
AD: “Did you say anything?”
SZ: “I was a bit erm confused at first. What do you mean, who? Then he showed me on his phone. My heart sunk.”
He is asked what he was shown on Barry’s phone.
SZ: “The Echo. Girl shot in her back garden. The Echo website.”
AD: “What was your reaction to that?”
SZ: “Me heart sunk. I couldn’t believe it. It didn’t seem real.”
15:46KEY EVENT
Zeisz says: “Not sure.”
AD: “We then get 3.45, yeah. There’s the reply. She said ‘phone been on charge next to me’. “Were you aware what had happened at this point?”
SZ: “Erm im not sure. I don’t know the time Niall told me about Withsam.”
AD: “The next thing is 4.21. You said ‘yo’ again. Were you aware of anything by then?”
SZ: “I would have been aware by 20 past 4 yeah.”
AD: “Your next text is in me nans. We’ve got the 10 o'clock search, then at 10.13 she says ‘in me nans, why’. ‘Need to see you, ring you today’. By then you know. Why were you texting Liv need to see you?”
SZ: “Probably to tell her about what’s happened.”
AD: “The answer back from her is ok. How did you feel about that, the news, what Niall was telling you?”
SZ: “Heartbroken. Devastated.”
AD: “Had you had any feud with Lee?”
SZ: “Never.”
AD: “Let’s move forward to the morning. We see you there not that long after that text coming out with bags?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Can you tell us what’s in the bags?”
SZ: “Cannabis.”
AD: “This is August 21. Why are you with Mr Barry?”
SZ: “To sell that cannabis.”
AD “Where were you going with the cannabis?”
SZ: “Round the corner in Dovecot.”
AD; “How far was that away from you.”
SZ: “A two minute drive.”
AD: “Do you remember the name of the road.”
SZ: “Old Walk.”
AD: “Who drove?”
SZ: “Me.”
AD: “The Mercedes?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Did you go into the address?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “Niall went in and dropped the weed off. I think they were seeing someone else that day.”
AD: “Was any money exchanged?”
SZ: “Not at that point no.”
AD: “Where did you go next?”
SZ: “To Ian’s.”
AD: “What address was that?”
SZ: “Windermere Terrace.”
AD: “Was there any discussion about what had happened the night before?”
SZ: “Course there was, yeah.”
AD: “Was that in the car or at Ian Fitzgibbons?”
SZ: “All the way to Ian’s, and in Ian’s.”
AD: “We see the car travelling towards Dingle. Do you know where you’re going?”
SZ: “That’s going to Ian’s, right before it. I think it is. I can’t remember the route. It depends what way I come out of Dovecot.”
AD: “Did you go into Ian Fitzgibbon’s house?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “We told him what we thought had happened. We were 95 per cent sure that had happened with Witham.”
AD: “We can see a call from Peers to you which doesn’t appear to have been answered. Then there is a call from you to Peers for 46 seconds, 12.40. What was that about?”
SZ: “I wanted to see him. I asked had he seen Witham.”
AD: “What did he say?”
SZ: “He hadn’t seen him. I said I need to see you, I need to speak to you, it’s important. We were gonna lock him in the car and take him the police station.”
AD: “He hadn’t seen him?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:50JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
SZ: “I can’t remember no.”
His car is later seen travelling towards Roby
He says he was going to his mum’s house.
AD: “Why were you going there?”
SZ: “To eat Sunday dinner.”
AD: “Was this a regular event?”
SZ: “Yeah most Sundays I go to my mum’s for my dinner.”
AD: “Who were you with?”
SZ: “Niall in the passenger and Ian in the back.”
AD: “Did you go to your Mum’s?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “How long were you with your mum?”
SZ: “It will have been a while.”
AD: “We know from about half 2, there is a period where your phone seems to have been off for a couple of hours. Can you explain that?”
SZ: “I couldn’t. The battery’s died or something.”
AD: “Where were Barry and Fitzgibbon while you were in your mum’s?”
SZ: “They were outside in the car, smoking a spliff. When I was done U brought them a sandwich each.”
AD: “You phoned a taxi, what was that about?”
SZ: “To go and collect the money off the cannabis.”
AD: “Liv said just having my tea. You said where, and then it seems to be the end of the message. Then another called from the taxi driver to you. We then see you and Mr Fitzgibbon cell siting near Mr Fitzgibbon’s address. Were you back there by then?”
SZ: “I went back to Ian’s, yeah.”
AD: “Was it unusual for you to be at Mr Fitzgibbon’s?”
SZ: “No, no.”
AD: “Were you involved in any way in the movement of the Hyundai?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Have you ever been in the Hyundai?”
SZ: “Never been it in my life.”
AD: “Had you ever met Mr Radford.”
SZ: “Don’t know him.”
AD: “At any point did you drive to or in St Helens?”
SZ: “No, no point.”
JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz says: “No chance, no.”
AD: “And as a result of that plan, to shoot up his house?”
SZ: “Not a chance, no.”
AD; “You handed yourself into the police. You were interviewed. The jury have seen your prepared statement. Did you have the opportunity to speak to a solicitor?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
AD: “You made no comment in interview.”
SZ: “I did yeah. I just took the legal advice.”
AD: “Did you write the prepared statement?”
SZ: “My solicitor did it for me.”
AD: “On your instructions.”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
That concludes Mr Davies’ questioning.
Justice Goose calls for a 15-minute break.
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
'Barry told me: Witham had shot Saz's house up'
Mr Davies says: “You got up to leave with Fitzgibbon?”Zeisz says: “Yeah.”
AD: “Niall asked you to stay?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “He said he would pay you the money the next day?”
SZ: “In the morning yeah.”
AD: “How was he gonna do that?”
SZ: “I believe he was selling cannabis.”
He is asked how much cannabis was in the flat and replies “About two, three k’s”
Zeisz is asked about a jacket seen in pictures taken inside the flat. His DNA was found on the garment
AD: “Have you ever worn it?”
SZ: “Never in my life. I wouldn’t wear the jacket.”
AD: “Have you ever touched it?”
SZ: “It was found in the bedroom, that’s where I slept.”
Mr Davies returns to the early hours of August 21.
SZ: “After I got off, Niall said you can stay here in the bed. I didn’t go asleep, I was just lying on the bed texting.”
AD: “There’s two attempted calls. You tried Peers twice.”
SZ: “It was when I left. Joe said he was coming back round to watch the UFC. Niall said try Joe,I thought he was coming round. He said he was.”
AD: “About 12 minutes later, we can see a call from Joe to you. About 19 seconds. Did you speak to him. What was said?”
SZ: “He said are you still in the flat? I’ll be round now. I said don’t forget ciggies.”
AD: “What happened after this call?”
SZ: “I waited for him, stayed, lied on the bed.”
AD: “We then see another call. Can you see, 1.18, from you to him again. That’s nearly half an hour after that first call. 20 minutes, sorry. Why did you call him again?”
SZ: “Cos he said he’d be round now. He was 20 minutes, it shouldn't have took him 20 minutes. It’s a five minute walk from his mum’s to there yeah.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “He come round. He phoned me and said he was outside.”
AD: “Did he enter the flat?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
AD: “Was he with anybody?”
SZ: “Witham.”
AD: “What did you think when he entered with Witham?”
SZ: “He didn’t tell me he was with Witham on the phone. I got up and built a spliff and smoked half a spliff.”
AD: “Was Witham still loud?”
SZ: “No he was quiet, very quiet.”
AD: “Then what happened.”
SZ: “I had half a spliff and went back in the bedroom, I was texting away again.”
AD: “Did you go to sleep.”
SZ: “I dozed off yeah, but it was more texting.”
AD: “What happened next.”
SZ: “I couldn’t tell you what time it was, Niall came in saying ‘Witham’s saying he shot the house up, Saz’s house’. I can’t recall the time.”
AD: “Saz being Lee Harrison?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:39KEY EVENT
'I think Witham's killed Ashley'
Mr Davies asks: “Had you actually heard Witham say that?”Zeisz: “No.”
AD: “Can you remember the exact words?”
SZ: “This soft c***s saying he’s shot Saz’s house up.”
AD: “Did he use Witham’s name?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Were you aware of any difficulties between Mr Witham and Lee Harrison.”
SZ: “In the past, yeah”
AD: “But at this point?”
SZ: “At that time I weren’t aware of any current issues, no. I don’t know what goes on with them every day, I don’t know.”
AD; “Had you said anything after Mr Barry said that to you.”
SZ: “I got up and asked him a few questions. I can’t remember exactly, I didn’t believe him.”
AD: “Then what happened.”
SZ: “Nothing. I said he’s chatting
him, he’s full of , and I went back to bed.”AD: “Were you awake for the rest of the morning?”
SZ: “No no no I was asleep, dozed off. I think i woke up a couple of times, checked my phone.”
AD: “Was anything on your phone about this, what had happened?”
SZ: “No no no no.”
AD: “What happened next?”
SZ: “I was asleep. I was woke up in the morning by Niall. He was saying ‘Witham’s killed Ashley’, screaming. He said I think, I think he shot Ashley or killed Ashley. I didn’t know what he was on about.”
AD: “Did you say anything?”
SZ: “I was a bit erm confused at first. What do you mean, who? Then he showed me on his phone. My heart sunk.”
He is asked what he was shown on Barry’s phone.
SZ: “The Echo. Girl shot in her back garden. The Echo website.”
AD: “What was your reaction to that?”
SZ: “Me heart sunk. I couldn’t believe it. It didn’t seem real.”
15:46KEY EVENT
'We were going to lock Witham in the car and take him to the police station'
Mr Davies asks: “There’s a text from you to Liv at 3.30, ‘you up’. Was that replied to?”Zeisz says: “Not sure.”
AD: “We then get 3.45, yeah. There’s the reply. She said ‘phone been on charge next to me’. “Were you aware what had happened at this point?”
SZ: “Erm im not sure. I don’t know the time Niall told me about Withsam.”
AD: “The next thing is 4.21. You said ‘yo’ again. Were you aware of anything by then?”
SZ: “I would have been aware by 20 past 4 yeah.”
AD: “Your next text is in me nans. We’ve got the 10 o'clock search, then at 10.13 she says ‘in me nans, why’. ‘Need to see you, ring you today’. By then you know. Why were you texting Liv need to see you?”
SZ: “Probably to tell her about what’s happened.”
AD: “The answer back from her is ok. How did you feel about that, the news, what Niall was telling you?”
SZ: “Heartbroken. Devastated.”
AD: “Had you had any feud with Lee?”
SZ: “Never.”
AD: “Let’s move forward to the morning. We see you there not that long after that text coming out with bags?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
AD: “Can you tell us what’s in the bags?”
SZ: “Cannabis.”
AD: “This is August 21. Why are you with Mr Barry?”
SZ: “To sell that cannabis.”
AD “Where were you going with the cannabis?”
SZ: “Round the corner in Dovecot.”
AD; “How far was that away from you.”
SZ: “A two minute drive.”
AD: “Do you remember the name of the road.”
SZ: “Old Walk.”
AD: “Who drove?”
SZ: “Me.”
AD: “The Mercedes?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “Did you go into the address?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “Niall went in and dropped the weed off. I think they were seeing someone else that day.”
AD: “Was any money exchanged?”
SZ: “Not at that point no.”
AD: “Where did you go next?”
SZ: “To Ian’s.”
AD: “What address was that?”
SZ: “Windermere Terrace.”
AD: “Was there any discussion about what had happened the night before?”
SZ: “Course there was, yeah.”
AD: “Was that in the car or at Ian Fitzgibbons?”
SZ: “All the way to Ian’s, and in Ian’s.”
AD: “We see the car travelling towards Dingle. Do you know where you’re going?”
SZ: “That’s going to Ian’s, right before it. I think it is. I can’t remember the route. It depends what way I come out of Dovecot.”
AD: “Did you go into Ian Fitzgibbon’s house?”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
AD: “What happened?”
SZ: “We told him what we thought had happened. We were 95 per cent sure that had happened with Witham.”
AD: “We can see a call from Peers to you which doesn’t appear to have been answered. Then there is a call from you to Peers for 46 seconds, 12.40. What was that about?”
SZ: “I wanted to see him. I asked had he seen Witham.”
AD: “What did he say?”
SZ: “He hadn’t seen him. I said I need to see you, I need to speak to you, it’s important. We were gonna lock him in the car and take him the police station.”
AD: “He hadn’t seen him?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
15:50JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'I have never been in the Hyundai in my life'
Zeisz is asked how long he was in Fitzgibbon’s flatSZ: “I can’t remember no.”
His car is later seen travelling towards Roby
He says he was going to his mum’s house.
AD: “Why were you going there?”
SZ: “To eat Sunday dinner.”
AD: “Was this a regular event?”
SZ: “Yeah most Sundays I go to my mum’s for my dinner.”
AD: “Who were you with?”
SZ: “Niall in the passenger and Ian in the back.”
AD: “Did you go to your Mum’s?”
SZ: “Yes.”
AD: “How long were you with your mum?”
SZ: “It will have been a while.”
AD: “We know from about half 2, there is a period where your phone seems to have been off for a couple of hours. Can you explain that?”
SZ: “I couldn’t. The battery’s died or something.”
AD: “Where were Barry and Fitzgibbon while you were in your mum’s?”
SZ: “They were outside in the car, smoking a spliff. When I was done U brought them a sandwich each.”
AD: “You phoned a taxi, what was that about?”
SZ: “To go and collect the money off the cannabis.”
AD: “Liv said just having my tea. You said where, and then it seems to be the end of the message. Then another called from the taxi driver to you. We then see you and Mr Fitzgibbon cell siting near Mr Fitzgibbon’s address. Were you back there by then?”
SZ: “I went back to Ian’s, yeah.”
AD: “Was it unusual for you to be at Mr Fitzgibbon’s?”
SZ: “No, no.”
AD: “Were you involved in any way in the movement of the Hyundai?”
SZ: “No.”
AD: “Have you ever been in the Hyundai?”
SZ: “Never been it in my life.”
AD: “Had you ever met Mr Radford.”
SZ: “Don’t know him.”
AD: “At any point did you drive to or in St Helens?”
SZ: “No, no point.”
JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'No chance was involved in shooting plot'
Mr Davies asks: “Were you involved in any way in a plan to shoot Lee Harrison?”Zeisz says: “No chance, no.”
AD: “And as a result of that plan, to shoot up his house?”
SZ: “Not a chance, no.”
AD; “You handed yourself into the police. You were interviewed. The jury have seen your prepared statement. Did you have the opportunity to speak to a solicitor?”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
AD: “You made no comment in interview.”
SZ: “I did yeah. I just took the legal advice.”
AD: “Did you write the prepared statement?”
SZ: “My solicitor did it for me.”
AD: “On your instructions.”
SZ: “Yeah yeah.”
That concludes Mr Davies’ questioning.
Justice Goose calls for a 15-minute break.
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
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- Nov 17, 2015
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- 8,845
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16:17JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
JC: “Would it be right to say you’ve known Mr Fitzgibbon for about 10 years before these events?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Part of that was as a result of your relationship with Mr Fitzgibbon’s cousin Olivia McDowell, but you’d known Mr Fitzgibbon before that?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
JC: “My questions are to do with the days afterwards. None of them are critical of you, it’s trying to fill in the gaps. The following day, you went round to Mr Fitzgibbon’s house?”
SZ: “Flat..yes.”
JC: “Mr Barry was with you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “You went to the flat and you said words to the effect as to what you thought had happened the night before.”
SZ: “Yes.”
SZ: “Before you started to say that, is it right that Mr Fitzgibbon said ‘I’ve heard about Ashley. Claudia, his sister, said Sophie O’Connor had called her and said Ashley had been shot and killed’. Do you remember Mr Fitzgibbon saying that?”
SZ: “He might of, yeah.”
AD: “You went round, did you, to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat between around 11.30 and 12.30 that morning, afternoon.”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
AD: “When Mr Fitzgibbon said that to you, I know it’s difficult, you did not reply. No criticism of you.”
SZ: “I’m not sure.”
AD: “Fair. Did Mr Barry say to Mr Fitzgibbon in your presence, ‘you’ll never believe it we have been up arguing all night with Witham and Peers. They turned up early hours at the flat and Witham said he’d shot Lee’s house up…. Do you remember that being said or any part of it?”
SZ: “I remember part yeah. We just went round and told Ian.”
JC: “Was something said like that?”
SZ: “There might have been yeah.”
JC: “Had you and Mr Barry in fact been up all night arguing with Witham and Peers?”
SZ: “I had not been up all night no.”
JC: “Had you been up for part of the night arguing with Witham and Peers about what happened?”
SZ: “No, I questioned Witham. I don’t think Joe was in there, no.”
JC: “Do you remember Mr Barry saying, I know this is a double question, so I’ll take it slowly. Do you remember Mr Barry saying that Witham had said he had shot Lee’s house up. Did Mr Barry say that Witham said he had shot Lee’s house up?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “After you’d been to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat, did all three of you go to Jeffreys Crescent?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “In your car to get some weed?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “During that journey were all of you saying you could not believe what had happened.”
SZ: “Couldn’t believe it, no.”
JC: “Were all three of you saying words to the effect that Witham was a ####bag?”
SZ: “Yes.”
16:38JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Zeisz says: “We did yeah.”
JC: “Did you all, that’s you, Mr Barry, Mr Fitzgibbon and Davo go for a walk?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “During that walk, were you all discussing how horrible the events of the previous night were?”
SZ: “We was yeah.”
JC: “Then, after that, did you go to your mother’s house?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Again, went in your car with Mr Barry and Mr Fitzgibbon?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “You’ve told us about that. Effectively, during the course of that journey the conversation continued about how awful and shocking the events of the night before were?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “After you’d spent some time with your mum, you rejoined Mr Fitzgibbon and Mr Barry?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “After you’d come out of your mother’s home did you then go to Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “Were Mr Fitzgibbon and Barry with you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “The reason you went to Pilch Lane was to see Mr Kershaw wasn't it?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “What is Mr Kershaw’s association, did Mr Kershaw live at Pilch Lane?”
SZ; “Erm, yeah I don’t think he stayed there every night but yeah.”
JC: “On the night of the 20th, the night of the boxing match, was Mr Kershaw also in the flat?”
SZ: “He was.”
JC: “Was he there when Mr Witham and Mr Peers came back?”
SZ; “He was yeah.”
JC: “After midnight?”
SZ; “Yes he was.”
JC: “After Mr Fitzgibbon had left?”
SZ: “He was still there, yeah.”
JC: “After Mr Fitzgibbon left, you’d been of the view you wished you’d gone with him?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Back to the day after, back at Pilch Lane, did Mr Kershaw also say he couldn’t believe what had happened?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Kershaw say in front of you and the other two that Mr Witham when he got back was slobbering out of his mouth. Did Mr Kershaw say that?”
SZ: “Not that I could remember.”
JC: ““And couldn’t lift his head. Did Mr Kershaw say he’d seen Mr Witham slobbering out of his mouth and couldn’t lift his head?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure.”
JC: “Then did you go back to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat. After your visit to Kershaw?”
SZ: “Yeah, collected the money then went back to Ian’s.”
He says he collected the money from Dovecot.
JC: “After you left Kershaw at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “While I was in the flat I collected the money.”
JC: “After that you’re back with Mr Barry and Mr Fitzgibbon to mr Fitzgibbon’s flat?”
SZ: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Did Mr Kershaw remain at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “I think he might have come with us.”
JC: “All of you are still very shocked about what had happened. That’s right isn't it?”
SZ: “Yeah it is.”
JC: “Did Mr Barry express concern he might be dragged into it because he had had an argument with Lee in the past?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon then leave you all in his flat for a while?”
SZ: “I think so, i think he stayed in his sister’s”
JC: “He really didn’t want to be around anyone at this stage?”
SZ: “Not sure.”
JC: “He certainly left you, Mr Barry and Mr Kershaw in his flat.”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
JC: “And went to stay with his sister.”
SZ: “Yeah around the corner.”
17:00JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
JC: “You saw Mr Fitzgibbon again the next day, didn’t you?”
Zeisz: “Not sure.”
JC: “At about 6pm, you were still at Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat.”
SZ: “I can’t remember.”
JC: “You hadn’t left Mr Fitzgibbon’s after you had arrived the day before, Mr Fitzgibbon saw you there at about 6pm in the evening. Could that be right?”
SZ: “It could be”
JC: “Mr Barry was still there?”
SZ: “He could be. I don’t know.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon say you now both must leave his flat?”
SZ: “He might of, yeah.”
That concludes Mr Cooper’s questioning, and that is all the court will hear today.
The trial will not be sitting tomorrow, Friday or Monday.
Justice Goose says: “We will stop there ladies and gentlemen and resume on Tuesday.”
Thanks for following our coverage, we will provide further live updates on Tuesday
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
'Witham was a ####bag'
John Cooper, KC, representing Ian Fitzgibbon, rises to cross examine Zeisz.JC: “Would it be right to say you’ve known Mr Fitzgibbon for about 10 years before these events?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Part of that was as a result of your relationship with Mr Fitzgibbon’s cousin Olivia McDowell, but you’d known Mr Fitzgibbon before that?”
SZ: “Yeah.”
JC: “My questions are to do with the days afterwards. None of them are critical of you, it’s trying to fill in the gaps. The following day, you went round to Mr Fitzgibbon’s house?”
SZ: “Flat..yes.”
JC: “Mr Barry was with you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “You went to the flat and you said words to the effect as to what you thought had happened the night before.”
SZ: “Yes.”
SZ: “Before you started to say that, is it right that Mr Fitzgibbon said ‘I’ve heard about Ashley. Claudia, his sister, said Sophie O’Connor had called her and said Ashley had been shot and killed’. Do you remember Mr Fitzgibbon saying that?”
SZ: “He might of, yeah.”
AD: “You went round, did you, to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat between around 11.30 and 12.30 that morning, afternoon.”
SZ: “I did yeah.”
AD: “When Mr Fitzgibbon said that to you, I know it’s difficult, you did not reply. No criticism of you.”
SZ: “I’m not sure.”
AD: “Fair. Did Mr Barry say to Mr Fitzgibbon in your presence, ‘you’ll never believe it we have been up arguing all night with Witham and Peers. They turned up early hours at the flat and Witham said he’d shot Lee’s house up…. Do you remember that being said or any part of it?”
SZ: “I remember part yeah. We just went round and told Ian.”
JC: “Was something said like that?”
SZ: “There might have been yeah.”
JC: “Had you and Mr Barry in fact been up all night arguing with Witham and Peers?”
SZ: “I had not been up all night no.”
JC: “Had you been up for part of the night arguing with Witham and Peers about what happened?”
SZ: “No, I questioned Witham. I don’t think Joe was in there, no.”
JC: “Do you remember Mr Barry saying, I know this is a double question, so I’ll take it slowly. Do you remember Mr Barry saying that Witham had said he had shot Lee’s house up. Did Mr Barry say that Witham said he had shot Lee’s house up?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “After you’d been to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat, did all three of you go to Jeffreys Crescent?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “In your car to get some weed?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “During that journey were all of you saying you could not believe what had happened.”
SZ: “Couldn’t believe it, no.”
JC: “Were all three of you saying words to the effect that Witham was a ####bag?”
SZ: “Yes.”
16:38JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
'We're still shocked'
Mr Cooper asks: “Then, did all three of you go to meet Davo. Mr McCaig?”Zeisz says: “We did yeah.”
JC: “Did you all, that’s you, Mr Barry, Mr Fitzgibbon and Davo go for a walk?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “During that walk, were you all discussing how horrible the events of the previous night were?”
SZ: “We was yeah.”
JC: “Then, after that, did you go to your mother’s house?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Again, went in your car with Mr Barry and Mr Fitzgibbon?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “You’ve told us about that. Effectively, during the course of that journey the conversation continued about how awful and shocking the events of the night before were?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “After you’d spent some time with your mum, you rejoined Mr Fitzgibbon and Mr Barry?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “After you’d come out of your mother’s home did you then go to Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “We did yeah.”
JC: “Were Mr Fitzgibbon and Barry with you?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “The reason you went to Pilch Lane was to see Mr Kershaw wasn't it?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “What is Mr Kershaw’s association, did Mr Kershaw live at Pilch Lane?”
SZ; “Erm, yeah I don’t think he stayed there every night but yeah.”
JC: “On the night of the 20th, the night of the boxing match, was Mr Kershaw also in the flat?”
SZ: “He was.”
JC: “Was he there when Mr Witham and Mr Peers came back?”
SZ; “He was yeah.”
JC: “After midnight?”
SZ; “Yes he was.”
JC: “After Mr Fitzgibbon had left?”
SZ: “He was still there, yeah.”
JC: “After Mr Fitzgibbon left, you’d been of the view you wished you’d gone with him?”
SZ: “Yes.”
JC: “Back to the day after, back at Pilch Lane, did Mr Kershaw also say he couldn’t believe what had happened?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Kershaw say in front of you and the other two that Mr Witham when he got back was slobbering out of his mouth. Did Mr Kershaw say that?”
SZ: “Not that I could remember.”
JC: ““And couldn’t lift his head. Did Mr Kershaw say he’d seen Mr Witham slobbering out of his mouth and couldn’t lift his head?”
SZ: “I’m not too sure.”
JC: “Then did you go back to Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat. After your visit to Kershaw?”
SZ: “Yeah, collected the money then went back to Ian’s.”
He says he collected the money from Dovecot.
JC: “After you left Kershaw at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “While I was in the flat I collected the money.”
JC: “After that you’re back with Mr Barry and Mr Fitzgibbon to mr Fitzgibbon’s flat?”
SZ: “That’s correct.”
JC: “Did Mr Kershaw remain at Pilch Lane?”
SZ: “I think he might have come with us.”
JC: “All of you are still very shocked about what had happened. That’s right isn't it?”
SZ: “Yeah it is.”
JC: “Did Mr Barry express concern he might be dragged into it because he had had an argument with Lee in the past?”
SZ: “He did yeah.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon then leave you all in his flat for a while?”
SZ: “I think so, i think he stayed in his sister’s”
JC: “He really didn’t want to be around anyone at this stage?”
SZ: “Not sure.”
JC: “He certainly left you, Mr Barry and Mr Kershaw in his flat.”
SZ: “Yeah, yeah.”
JC: “And went to stay with his sister.”
SZ: “Yeah around the corner.”
17:00JONATHAN HUMPHRIES
Court adjourns
Mr Cooper turns to August 22.JC: “You saw Mr Fitzgibbon again the next day, didn’t you?”
Zeisz: “Not sure.”
JC: “At about 6pm, you were still at Mr Fitzgibbon’s flat.”
SZ: “I can’t remember.”
JC: “You hadn’t left Mr Fitzgibbon’s after you had arrived the day before, Mr Fitzgibbon saw you there at about 6pm in the evening. Could that be right?”
SZ: “It could be”
JC: “Mr Barry was still there?”
SZ: “He could be. I don’t know.”
JC: “Did Mr Fitzgibbon say you now both must leave his flat?”
SZ: “He might of, yeah.”
That concludes Mr Cooper’s questioning, and that is all the court will hear today.
The trial will not be sitting tomorrow, Friday or Monday.
Justice Goose says: “We will stop there ladies and gentlemen and resume on Tuesday.”
Thanks for following our coverage, we will provide further live updates on Tuesday
Ashley Dale murder trial as it happens
The 28-year-old was shot dead at her home on Leinster Road in Old Swan
What depressing crew. For those who arrived late, a guide to the various players and their nicknames, with a useful precis of events.
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Every nickname heard during Ashley Dale murder trial explained
James Witham, Ian Fitzgibbon, Niall Barry, Sean Zeisz and Joseph Peers are accused of murdering Ashley Dale
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Kallum
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
Man accused of assisting Ashley 'killers' will not give evidence
Kallum Radford is alleged to have arranged for car used in shooting to be stored at friend's house
So I'm guessing he's on bail if he's pictured outside court like this?Kallum
Man accused of assisting Ashley 'killers' will not give evidence
Kallum Radford is alleged to have arranged for car used in shooting to be stored at friend's house
One here of Fitzgibbon
www.liverpoolecho.co.uk
I imagine they’d just sketch a weasel for Peers… jmo
Ian Fitzgibbon pleads not guilty to murder of Ashley Dale
Five men are due to go on trial this week charged with murdering 28-year-old council worker
I imagine they’d just sketch a weasel for Peers… jmo
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