UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #12

[MEKON]

I attach a photo-Compliments of MSM that shows white jacket person as they appear to look at the CCTV camera-Why would you do this?

Here is the link to the article:
Mystery man caught on CCTV lurking near home of missing chef Claudia Lawrence | Daily Mail Online
Based upon what Galloway says:
"The detective said they were trying to trace the second man as a witness as he is seen on CCTV walking down Heworth Road while the first man is in the road behind Miss Lawrence's house. He said: 'He's being appealed for on the basis of being a witness to the person who walks into Lime Court."

At the time, Galloway had not connected evening and morning Alleyperson. It was Dias who discovered the unpublished footage.

This activity took place at almost the same time of day.

Discussing the appearance of White jacket:

• They appear to be wearing oversized clothes
• There is the outline of something underneath the jacket-Could be a backpack, albeit an empty one
• The person could be wearing a wig
• The person could be (As could be Alleyperson) Female

In much earlier postings in this thread from last year it was said that White Jacket had a resemblance to two people that I cannot name:

The Son of an arrested POI
The owner of a local business-I am unsure if I can name this person as they are not connected to a POI but followers of this thread will know who I mean.

I attach a photo-Compliments of MSM that shows white jacket person as they appear to look at the CCTV camera-Why would you do this?

Here is the link to the article:
Mystery man caught on CCTV lurking near home of missing chef Claudia Lawrence | Daily Mail Online
Based upon what Galloway says:
"The detective said they were trying to trace the second man as a witness as he is seen on CCTV walking down Heworth Road while the first man is in the road behind Miss Lawrence's house. He said: 'He's being appealed for on the basis of being a witness to the person who walks into Lime Court."

At the time, Galloway had not connected evening and morning Alleyperson. It was Dias who discovered the unpublished footage.

This activity took place at almost the same time of day.

Discussing the appearance of White jacket:

• They appear to be wearing oversized clothes
• There is the outline of something underneath the jacket-Could be a backpack, albeit an empty one
• The person could be wearing a wig
• The person could be (As could be Alleyperson) Female

In much earlier postings in this thread from last year it was said that White Jacket had a resemblance to two people that I cannot name:

The Son of an arrested POI
The owner of a local business-I am unsure if I can name this person as they are not connected to a POI but followers of this thread will know who I mean.

Interesting......especially the issue of a wig. I've been asking my partner about the dye issue and she suggested a wig had been dyed. Also the idea that someone had dressed up well enough to give the impression that Claudia had left to work that morning

Again; if this indeed did happen. Could it not further suggest it was a local phenomenon because people knew no cameras would provide a good enough footage to identify the guilty

 

[MEKON]

I attach a photo-Compliments of MSM that shows white jacket person as they appear to look at the CCTV camera-Why would you do this?

Here is the link to the article:
Mystery man caught on CCTV lurking near home of missing chef Claudia Lawrence | Daily Mail Online
Based upon what Galloway says:
"The detective said they were trying to trace the second man as a witness as he is seen on CCTV walking down Heworth Road while the first man is in the road behind Miss Lawrence's house. He said: 'He's being appealed for on the basis of being a witness to the person who walks into Lime Court."

At the time, Galloway had not connected evening and morning Alleyperson. It was Dias who discovered the unpublished footage.

This activity took place at almost the same time of day.

Discussing the appearance of White jacket:

• They appear to be wearing oversized clothes
• There is the outline of something underneath the jacket-Could be a backpack, albeit an empty one
• The person could be wearing a wig
• The person could be (As could be Alleyperson) Female

In much earlier postings in this thread from last year it was said that White Jacket had a resemblance to two people that I cannot name:

The Son of an arrested POI
The owner of a local business-I am unsure if I can name this person as they are not connected to a POI but followers of this thread will know who I mean.

I attach a photo-Compliments of MSM that shows white jacket person as they appear to look at the CCTV camera-Why would you do this?

Here is the link to the article:
Mystery man caught on CCTV lurking near home of missing chef Claudia Lawrence | Daily Mail Online
Based upon what Galloway says:
"The detective said they were trying to trace the second man as a witness as he is seen on CCTV walking down Heworth Road while the first man is in the road behind Miss Lawrence's house. He said: 'He's being appealed for on the basis of being a witness to the person who walks into Lime Court."

At the time, Galloway had not connected evening and morning Alleyperson. It was Dias who discovered the unpublished footage.

This activity took place at almost the same time of day.

Discussing the appearance of White jacket:

• They appear to be wearing oversized clothes
• There is the outline of something underneath the jacket-Could be a backpack, albeit an empty one
• The person could be wearing a wig
• The person could be (As could be Alleyperson) Female

In much earlier postings in this thread from last year it was said that White Jacket had a resemblance to two people that I cannot name:

The Son of an arrested POI
The owner of a local business-I am unsure if I can name this person as they are not connected to a POI but followers of this thread will know who I mean.

Interesting......especially the issue of a wig. I've been asking my partner about the dye issue and she suggested a wig had been dyed. Also the idea that someone had dressed up well enough to give the impression that Claudia had left to work that morning

Again; if this indeed did happen. Could it not further suggest it was a local phenomenon because people knew no cameras would provide a good enough footage to identify the guilty

 

[MEKON]

@MEKON Are some of the pieces far to revealing about the "Complex and Mysterious" nature that some may not want to be revealed?

Police were sensitive following Galloways highly criticised outburst early in the investigation.

Fully agree; but I am no expert. I'm sure the authorities have attempted to achieve a balance between solving the case and also especially respecting Claudias family

I'm sure there has been mistakes made; but the stakes are high and the family and media etc want plus expect results

Like any high powered job the balance between getting important quick results and how you go about getting them; is a very tricky balance

I think the recent issue with Pritti Patel raised similar dilemmas

 

[Popejohn3]

@Popejohn3 I would say that he didnt want to be seen WITH the person in white jacket.
This is very different.
If you watch the cctv footage. Alleyperson comes into sight a few seconds with white jacket person BEFORE stopping.
As has also been said, both suspects appear in CCTV footage evening and morning and so they were either tracking each other or doing something together.

Yes and did someone on here commented that the white man was wearing Italian gear ?

 

[Popejohn3]

@MEKON Are some of the pieces far to revealing about the "Complex and Mysterious" nature that some may not want to be revealed?

Police were sensitive following Galloways highly criticised outburst early in the investigation.

As MEKON says we have 115 pieces of a 100 piece jigsaw ! I think we have several Jigsaws here !

 

[Deleted member 102539]

@Popejohn3 I would say that he didnt want to be seen WITH the person in white jacket.
This is very different.
If you watch the cctv footage. Alleyperson comes into sight a few seconds with white jacket person BEFORE stopping.
As has also been said, both suspects appear in CCTV footage evening and morning and so they were either tracking each other or doing something together.

If Claudia was still alive, why turned alleyman and walked back to the main entrance/main road? I would think, one of the men -if they were partners in crime- had to stay at the back door and one had to stay at the entrance. But in fact one goes to the backyard and returns after a very short time and one goes along the main street. It doesn't make sense, IMO. What should white man's job have been?
Where is the difference in walking one after another in direction of CL's entrance or walking a few feet behind one another? Did alleyman indeed stop his walk, because he didn't want to be seen WITH white man? Why did alleyman look over his back at least 2 times, what could he see there? Why didn't he look at the direction of the left part of main street?

 

[oudzuid]

Just seen what Ouzid put above about potentially moving a body or drugged person out of house without being seen, could you really get to the Nags via a fire escape from her house?!

If whoever did it had the right connections at the pub (and seemingly from what police suspect they did) that would be a pretty ideal way to dispose given the chef wasn't around and upstairs rooms were likely empty so would give some time without any suspicion whatsoever given all this would be out of view.

@Inspector Evans Yes you would exit CL garden onto alley, turn Left and walk to end of alley. In 2009, it was then possible at the end of alley to come into Nags Head Car Park at rear.

Regarding the Fire Escape-If someone left the door open or even was waiting to let someone in

Were Alleyperson and White Jacket working as a combo?
One at top of Escape or in a room and one at CL house?

Yes and did someone on here commented that the white man was wearing Italian gear ?

@Popejohn3 From the CCTV still it doesn't look like Italian gear-Not stylish enough I'm afraid

 

[oudzuid]

If Claudia was still alive, why turned alleyman and walked back to the main entrance/main road? I would think, one of the men -if they were partners in crime- had to stay at the back door and one had to stay at the entrance. But in fact one goes to the backyard and returns after a very short time and one goes along the main street. It doesn't make sense, IMO. What should white man's job have been?
Where is the difference in walking one after another in direction of CL's entrance or walking a few feet behind one another? Did alleyman indeed stop his walk, because he didn't want to be seen WITH white man? Why did alleyman look over his back at least 2 times, what could he see there? Why didn't he look at the direction of the left part of main street?

@FromGermany Of course the police may well have CCTV footage showing these two characters at other times.
Perhaps just before or just after Claudia's last phone call, they just haven't shared them as the purpose of sharing was to seek someone to come forward to say "That's and yyy".

What we don't know is what these two characters were doing before shown or even afterwards.

 

[Popejohn3]

If Claudia was still alive, why turned alleyman and walked back to the main entrance/main road? I would think, one of the men -if they were partners in crime- had to stay at the back door and one had to stay at the entrance. But in fact one goes to the backyard and returns after a very short time and one goes along the main street. It doesn't make sense, IMO. What should white man's job have been?
Where is the difference in walking one after another in direction of CL's entrance or walking a few feet behind one another? Did alleyman indeed stop his walk, because he didn't want to be seen WITH white man? Why did alleyman look over his back at least 2 times, what could he see there? Why didn't he look at the direction of the left part of main street?

The allyman was looking for Claudia no point in him looking left because his ‘partner’ had just come from there .
Whitman was checking Claudia’s door but from a distance in case she looks out from her front window .

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The allyman was looking for Claudia no point in him looking left because his ‘partner’ had just come from there .
Whitman was checking Claudia’s door but from a distance in case she looks out from her front window .

Why didn't white man walk along the other side of the road? Would be logical, if the men didn't want to encounter each other, although they were a "team" (perhaps).

 

[Popejohn3]

Why didn't white man walk along the other side of the road? Would be logical, if the men didn't want to encounter each other, although they were a "team" (perhaps).

I believe they did that on a different day !

 

[oudzuid]

Why didn't white man walk along the other side of the road? Would be logical, if the men didn't want to encounter each other, although they were a "team" (perhaps).

@FromGermany In the morning White Jacket Person did walk on the opposite of the road

 

[keep-it-real]

Why didn't white man walk along the other side of the road? Would be logical, if the men didn't want to encounter each other, although they were a "team" (perhaps).

In my opinion you are correct @FromGermany they are a team. From what I can make out from studying the footage it appears to be some sort of sting operation going on. Its by no means straight forward in ascertaining which people belong to which group when you view the events of the evening of the 18th as a whole because in my opinion its not just 2 groups involved here.
If you want to dicuss the Alleyman pausing and the man in the light jacket who crosses the road, from what I can make out the man in the white jacket crossing is with at least 2 or possibly 3 other people.
In the doorway of the house on the opposite side of the road is a male dressed in a light coloured top holds his arms in the air as if in a surrender position.
The alleyman who is with any other person who he has a hold of at this stage pauses in my opinion due to this activity. when the light jacket man and the group walk on he adjusts the hold of this person and also walks on.
I should say from what I can make out there are at least one other person who is taken under duress from the Limes direction to Heworth road and glimpses of that can be found on the footage if you study it, that person is the one that is eventually carried by 2 persons in a stretcher hold around the corner of Heworth rd.
Light jacket man seen looking upward at The Costcutters store is im my opinion the same man the image of his face and hair appears to have been overlaid on the still photo.
I see him as scouting out the building. If you study the bus cam in detail you will understand why this might be.
Where some people may relate sting operations to LE opposing criminal groups also operate in this way. Which is what makes it more complicated in ascertaining which group is which when studying the bus cam footage.

These are my opinions only.. others may have a different view
Dyor

 

[keep-it-real]

Is that Clauds

@Vixey could this be a photo taken by the person sat in traffic that saw 2 men at Claudia's door the week before she went missing?
Its very poor quality but it appears tome to be 2 men the main man looks to be attempting to kick the door in.
Could it be that the person sat in traffic not only witnessed the trying of the door but also them attempting to break in?

This is my opinion only others may have a different view
Dyor

 

[MEKON]

@FromGermany In the morning White Jacket Person did walk on the opposite of the road

An incident occurring twice within 2 days; in the vicinity of the same particular area of interest, between the same? 2 individuals

Some may explain this as a coincidence; other's may say it's another one of those tick box indicators

IMO an adaptation of 'The Moscow Rules' could be applied........''somebody or people are up to summit''

 

[oudzuid]

In my opinion you are correct @FromGermany they are a team. From what I can make out from studying the footage it appears to be some sort of sting operation going on. Its by no means straight forward in ascertaining which people belong to which group when you view the events of the evening of the 18th as a whole because in my opinion its not just 2 groups involved here.
If you want to dicuss the Alleyman pausing and the man in the light jacket who crosses the road, from what I can make out the man in the white jacket crossing is with at least 2 or possibly 3 other people.
In the doorway of the house on the opposite side of the road is a male dressed in a light coloured top holds his arms in the air as if in a surrender position.
The alleyman who is with any other person who he has a hold of at this stage pauses in my opinion due to this activity. when the light jacket man and the group walk on he adjusts the hold of this person and also walks on.
I should say from what I can make out there are at least one other person who is taken under duress from the Limes direction to Heworth road and glimpses of that can be found on the footage if you study it, that person is the one that is eventually carried by 2 persons in a stretcher hold around the corner of Heworth rd.
Light jacket man seen looking upward at The Costcutters store is im my opinion the same man the image of his face and hair appears to have been overlaid on the still photo.
I see him as scouting out the building. If you study the bus cam in detail you will understand why this might be.
Where some people may relate sting operations to LE opposing criminal groups also operate in this way. Which is what makes it more complicated in ascertaining which group is which when studying the bus cam footage.

These are my opinions only.. others may have a different view
Dyor

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@keep-it-real I have studied carefully for well over a year now the 2 CCTV footages both evening and morning and I am always open to new suggestions as to what can be seen here.

I respect that you say that this is your own opinion but I would like to add here some reasons why not only I cannot see what you see, but why what you are seeing is not possible:

Evening footage-18th March:

1.Alleyman is not carrying anyone-It is difficult enough to make out their face (Not sure why police ask-Do you recognise this man as most would return a categorical no) But, they are definitely not carrying Claudia and even if there was a slim chance they were, at 19:00 approx.-We know that she was still alive and was later talking separately with her parents-If in the slightest Alley person was carrying someone, It was not Claudia.

2 The CCTV footage starts with you only seeing a group of people disappearing out of shot and there is no way that they could be seen stretchering anyone.
3 White Jacket person crosses the entry / exit of Heworth Place all on their own, they are not with any other crowd.
4 The person in the doorway across the road-if this is a person, I do not see any hand raising in surrender in any way.

Morning Footage-19th March

1. There are only 2 people walking, no others (White Jacket and Alleyperson)
2. There may be someone in a doorway across the road but again no surrender pose
3. Alleyman is walking far too quickly to be carrying anyone and there is no visible sign of them carrying anyone

I am sorry but I have done my own research and in my opinion I cannot see any of what you can see.

I am happy to be proved wrong by anyone else who sees what I don't because most importantly our aim has to be to get to the truth.

 

[Popejohn3]

Interesting......especially the issue of a wig. I've been asking my partner about the dye issue and she suggested a wig had been dyed. Also the idea that someone had dressed up well enough to give the impression that Claudia had left to work that morning

Again; if this indeed did happen. Could it not further suggest it was a local phenomenon because people knew no cameras would provide a good enough footage to identify the guilty

If someone dressed up as Claudia I would say did not do a very good job because no one have seen her or them at all ?

 

[keep-it-real]

@keep-it-real I have studied carefully for well over a year now the 2 CCTV footages both evening and morning and I am always open to new suggestions as to what can be seen here.
I respect that you say that this is your own opinion but I would like to add here some reasons why not only I cannot see what you see, but why what you are seeing is not possible:
Evening footage-18th March:
1.Alleyman is not carrying anyone-It is difficult enough to make out their face (Not sure why police ask-Do you recognise this man as most would return a categorical no) But, they are definitely not carrying Claudia and even if there was a slim chance they were, at 19:00 approx.-We know that she was still alive and was later talking separately with her parents-If in the slightest Alley person was carrying someone, It was not Claudia.
2 The CCTV footage starts with you only seeing a group of people disappearing out of shot and there is no way that they could be seen stretchering anyone.
3 White Jacket person crosses the entry / exit of Heworth Place all on their own, they are not with any other crowd.
4 The person in the doorway across the road-if this is a person, I do not see any hand raising in surrender in any way.
Morning Footage-19th March
1. There are only 2 people walking, no others (White Jacket and Alleyperson)
2. There may be someone in a doorway across the road but again no surrender pose
3. Alleyman is walking far too quickly to be carrying anyone and there is no visible sign of them carrying anyone
I am sorry but I have done my own research and in my opinion I cannot see any of what you can see.
I am happy to be proved wrong by anyone else who sees what I don't because most importantly our aim has to be to get to the truth.

1. Where did I say anywhere that it was Claudia in the the footage?
2. Where did I say the people disappearing out of shot in the beginning of the footage were the ones carrying someone in a stretcher hold?
3. I beg to differ and I have to stills show him with others on that walk...I would point out these stills are taken from screenshots of the footage.
4. I made it clear in my previous post that at least one other person was taken under duress from The Limes direction to Heworth rd ant that was the person who was seen being carried in a stretcher hold around the corner of Heworth rd. I did not say that this person was carried at any other point other than rounding the corner.
Your reference to the speed to which Alleyman is walking if you slow the speed of the vieo down you will be able to glimpse images ofhim struggling with someone all along that pavement before he approaches the corner.
If you personally are unable to see these things I perfectly understand.
Its worth bearing in mind that it depends on the spec of the device and software people are using to how they are able to look at footage in detail.
I am merely presenting my findings some people may find it helpful in where they are in their research, others may just want to make a note of them.
We all seek the truth here and by piecing together what was actually happening around Heworth rd on the 18th and 19th it will Im sure give us a some valuable clues to the bigger picture.

I would add that I think the police are justified when asking do you recognise this person but thats just my opinion.

As before these are my opinions.. other people may have different ones

 

[Popejohn3]

Respect kir but I’m not sure taking a random still from an action movie is right you can get two images of the same person in that still . I hasten to add I have no expertise here whatsoever ever !

 

[MEKON]

If someone dressed up as Claudia I would say did not do a very good job because no one have seen her or them at all ?

Someone has possibly done a very good job though. The public has wrongly or rightly reported they have seen someone who could have been Claudia in the morning. I think one incident was an arguement on a bridge with a smoker and one near the University. Those reported sightings could have been:

A) Genuine reports; but genuine mistaken identity. The persons were a totally innocent couple called Mr and Mrs Smith who were completely innocent
B) Genuine reports; and the person that was seen, was indeed Claudia
C) Sinister reports made by the perpetrators, and the Female perpetrator dressed like Claudia in order to encourage false sightings made by the general public