UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #3

[MajorLang]

Oh my goodness. I had a brief look at three videos. SC and JK and then JK Claudia Lawrence: I think about her everyday, says friend JK.
I'm on my way to bed right now so I'll look again tomorrow. But the first thing that stands out........ the eyes. For anyone interested in this line of research, look at eye movements in conversations [and I'm not talking about research into the looking to the right lying theory which has been proven scientifically arguable, although it does hold some ground]. SC continually looks upward and left and upward and right, thereby drawing on visual memories and factual recollections of CL, so that she can use this information contained in both compartments of her brain to produce her conversation. In the "purple vase on the windowsill" video, JK, in the main, holds her eyes straight forward, displaying a detachment from drawing on her memories...........................

This is great @Brandysnapblue I recall a case many years ago where the Perp was interviewed on TV making an appeal for the Arsenist who set fire to his family home where his children had died. The appellant was genuinely in tears and grief stricken A psychoanalyst watching the news on TV. saw the appeal and rang Police. It transpired that the appellant had set fire to his own house for insurance purposes and thought his children were staying at friends. He was convicted. Genuinely grieving but something signaled his guilt? Is this JK
If she didn't set out to kill Claudia but perhaps the whole covering up bit made her less grief stricken and unlike the father in the aforementioned example, she had anger where he only had love?
"Claudia was not popular with Girls in Malton"

Had Claudia been treading in JK forbidden territory-Her Beau Mr PR and had he assisted with the clear up as she said to him-"I did it because I love you and she was cheating with you, you have to help me" Scenario.

 

[MajorLang]

I watched a crime documentary recently where police made excellent use of the ANPR [automatic number plate recognition] system to historically trace the movements of a known vehicle. Just by entering the reg, a list of roads instantly popped up which enabled them to track the suspect's movements on a given day/time. This enabled them to challenge his purported alibi as each entry on the system was accompanied by a 'live' photo of the vehicle! One difficulty encountered was being able to identify the driver of a vehicle during the hours of darkness which has been an issue in Claudia's case as we know.

I assume this was available in 2009.
#Behindthescenes - how technology helps keep North Yorkshire safe: ANPR - North Yorkshire Police

@Yozzer An area I have knowledge of. The CCTV cameras we have seen footage from are generally called "Scene" cameras. They can at basic level record what they see. Today a sophisticated "scene" camera can analyse the scene and capture data-colour of clothes, car colour etc. A very sophisticated one can capture face and apply facial recognition. Last year I was doing some work for a tech company who were leading the field but whilst face was getting >90% accuracy. Strangely colour ID was around <70%.

These are the cameras you see in films identifying suspects and tracking them in a "spooks" scenario M15.E.g,
Now ANPR number plate recognition Cameras. A different camera and usually used separately or positioned together.
A scenario would be in a car park, an ANPR Camera would be positioned at each barrier in and out, whereas a Scene camera would only survey the entrance and exit. Possibly one on each floor of a car park. This is to keep an eye on what's going on.
In a shop, scene cameras are used.
With ANPR Depending on weather and light now produces >97% In 2009 it was less than 90%.
I would say that York in 2009 was mainly covered by Private Company ANPR cameras. E.g, in Car Parks. Police would have them then on Dual carriageways and Motorways. Other applications would be corporate office vehicle entrances / Car Parks.
The likelihood of having York suburb roads covered in 2009 would be extremely low.
What you would see if they had some then was the ANPR camera turning the photo of a number plate, run through an algorithm and producing a registration number at 90% or less accuracy and when it left one area to go to another, not always being picked up.
Buses would deploy scene cameras then as they do today.
What we have seen in this case is poor quality CCTV from basic private scene cameras.

Hope this helps.

 

[Yozzer]

@Yozzer An area I have knowledge of. The CCTV cameras we have seen footage from are generally called "Scene" cameras. They can at basic level record what they see. Today a sophisticated "scene" camera can analyse the scene and capture data-colour of clothes, car colour etc. A very sophisticated one can capture face and apply facial recognition. Last year I was doing some work for a tech company who were leading the field but whilst face was getting >90% accuracy. Strangely colour ID was around <70%.

These are the cameras you see in films identifying suspects and tracking them in a "spooks" scenario M15.E.g,
Now ANPR number plate recognition Cameras. A different camera and usually used separately or positioned together.
A scenario would be in a car park, an ANPR Camera would be positioned at each barrier in and out, whereas a Scene camera would only survey the entrance and exit. Possibly one on each floor of a car park. This is to keep an eye on what's going on.
In a shop, scene cameras are used.
With ANPR Depending on weather and light now produces >97% In 2009 it was less than 90%.
I would say that York in 2009 was mainly covered by Private Company ANPR cameras. E.g, in Car Parks. Police would have them then on Dual carriageways and Motorways. Other applications would be corporate office vehicle entrances / Car Parks.
The likelihood of having York suburb roads covered in 2009 would be extremely low.
What you would see if they had some then was the ANPR camera turning the photo of a number plate, run through an algorithm and producing a registration number at 90% or less accuracy and when it left one area to go to another, not always being picked up.
Buses would deploy scene cameras then as they do today.
What we have seen in this case is poor quality CCTV from basic private scene cameras.

Hope this helps.

I think you're right about ANPR cameras being thin on the ground in York in 2009. They have ramped up more recently as York are now dealing with county lines drug gangs. I did wonder if the A-road cameras which did exist then may have picked up unusual activity at an unusual time of day/night in relation to any of the main players. One assumes NYP would have run these checks of course.

That brings me back to whether an old car might have been used which was then scrapped.....

 

[MajorLang]

I think you're right about ANPR cameras being thin on the ground in York in 2009. They have ramped up more recently as York are now dealing with county lines drug gangs. I did wonder if the A-road cameras which did exist then may have picked up unusual activity at an unusual time of day/night in relation to any of the main players. One assumes NYP would have run these checks of course.

That brings me back to whether an old car might have been used which was then scrapped.....

Scrapped and if already off the radar then it would never be found. Perhaps a car was advised as scrapped but kept "Alive" just for such a purpose. Phone bing turned off at 12:10 next day may suggest that they moved out of area after this and at a bussier time on the A roads. That is if it wasn't scrapped locally?

 

[Yozzer]

@Brandysnapblue
JK, in the main, holds her eyes straight forward, displaying a detachment from drawing on her memories

JK would argue this is the result of having conducted dozens of near identical interviews, no doubt.

 

[MajorLang]

If I asked you a question "What is your favourite memory of being around 6 years old?", when you answer the first thing you are going to do is start moving your eyes around to draw on memories. You will most probably move your eyes up to the left first, [depending on your dominant writing hand] but as you are answering, they will move both ways as you recall old photographs, songs, ice creams , videos, anything at all from that period of your childhood, and as your brain, via the searching of your eyes puts that period of your life together, you will be able to answer the question. If I asked you another question, "Tell me about your first day in primary school", but this time I told you that you had to look straight at me and not move your eyes around, you would find this quite difficult. The only time that it wouldn't be difficult is if I gave you the question 3 days before I wanted the answer and you had time to do the thinking and then gave me a "practised and rehearsed answer". If you are reading what I have written hear and you are thinking about what I'm saying, note how your eyes are moving around now!!!!!!!

It may be that Jen was already aware of what the TV questionnaire was going to ask but normally it would be in vague terms and so I do believe that you are correct here. Imagine if she was asked "So, who do you think killed Claudia?" What type of reaction would we see as she searched her mind?

 

[Yozzer]

Scrapped and if already off the radar then it would never be found. Perhaps a car was advised as scrapped but kept "Alive" just for such a purpose. Phone bing turned off at 12:10 next day may suggest that they moved out of area after this and at a bussier time on the A roads. That is if it wasn't scrapped locally?

And the local scrap dealer may not have been directly involved but was doing a mate a favour without asking any questions.

 

[moonsafari]

Interesting point about Claudia's birthday, three weeks prior to disappearing. Perhaps turning 35 had a significance that informed a decision: to someone else or Claudia herself, including pregnancy as mentioned, or an incident relating to her birthday celebrations informed what would happen to her three weeks later.

Because of the Acomb connection I have always been fascinated as to what Paul Harris' involvement was. If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in relation to Alistair Cooper for PCJ. Does this mean an alibi or something else? Where did AC and PH meet, what was the nature of their friendship? What, if any, business relations did they have? As a pub landlord but other vocations too. I don't recognise PH from the Nag's. I do wonder if the Acomb and NH Heworth had business connections also.

As for SC and JK: agree with Yozzer the sentiment does seem to be wistful nostalgia vs onwards and upwards. Both SC and JK were at the NH in '15 when I met with Jen. Suzy was giddy, Jen as I said gave a death stare then bought me a drink. Was a confusing walk and think home that evening, overall the message seemed to be: if you want to socialise here, no more CL talk. Which to an extent I can understand, even if they're all totally innocent. Still, unnerving....

Also we know of six arrests. Who are the other three? Are all of them still alive?

ML would be fascinated to read/see more pics/analysis after your day in York.... I think CCTV, not so much lack thereof but inability to positively identify, could be a factor.

 

[MajorLang]

Scrapped and if already off the radar then it would never be found. Perhaps a car was advised as scrapped but kept "Alive" just for such a purpose. Phone bing turned off at 12:10 next day may suggest that they moved out of area after this and at a bussier time on the A roads. That is if it wasn't scrapped locally?

I still struggle over the phone though. If you wee disposing of a body, would you not throw the backpack in and anything Claudia had on her person? If this happened you would not get an "Explicit" phone detachment from the network (It being turned off). Unless of course they wanted to keep personal belongings separate so as to make any identification more difficult-I doubt this though.

 

[MajorLang]

Interesting point about Claudia's birthday, three weeks prior to disappearing. Perhaps turning 35 had a significance that informed a decision: to someone else or Claudia herself, including pregnancy as mentioned, or an incident relating to her birthday celebrations informed what would happen to her three weeks later.

Because of the Acomb connection I have always been fascinated as to what Paul Harris' involvement was. If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in relation to Alistair Cooper for PCJ. Does this mean an alibi or something else? Where did AC and PH meet, what was the nature of their friendship? What, if any, business relations did they have? As a pub landlord but other vocations too. I don't recognise PH from the Nag's. I do wonder if the Acomb and NH Heworth had business connections also.

As for SC and JK: agree with Yozzer the sentiment does seem to be wistful nostalgia vs onwards and upwards. Both SC and JK were at the NH in '15 when I met with Jen. Suzy was giddy, Jen as I said gave a death stare then bought me a drink. Was a confusing walk and think home that evening, overall the message seemed to be: if you want to socialise here, no more CL talk. Which to an extent I can understand, even if they're all totally innocent. Still, unnerving....

Also we know of six arrests. Who are the other three? Are all of them still alive?

ML would be fascinated to read/see more pics/analysis after your day in York.... I think CCTV, not so much lack thereof but inability to positively identify, could be a factor.

@moonsafari Ok. I will see what I can do. Was JK's reaction to you because of your Medium article or had you not written this at that stage?

 

[moonsafari]

@moonsafari Ok. I will see what I can do. Was JK's reaction to you because of your Medium article or had you not written this at that stage?

Last met with Jen in 2015, wrote the Medium post around the decade anniversary, partially out of guilt for not being together enough to have offered help to the police, people who genuinely want to solve this horrible mystery, at the time

 

[Yozzer]

It may be that Jen was already aware of what the TV questionnaire was going to ask but normally it would be in vague terms and so I do believe that you are correct here. Imagine if she was asked "So, who do you think killed Claudia?" What type of reaction would we see as she searched her mind?

You would expect some form of displayed emotional response.
This line of discussion reminds me of a couple of cases where women were perceived not to be displaying appropriate levels of grief - both in Australia. The Lindy Chamberlain (dingo baby) case and Joanne Lees, girlfriend of the murdered Peter Falconio. In the latter case, JL was persecuted for being in control of her emotions.
Maybe JK falls in the same category as JL. Perhaps she lives and works in a very male environment where it is less common to display an emotional response in the way women often do, particularly when in each other's company? Or there may be another reason.

 

[Yozzer]

@moonsafari
Lots to pick over in your interesting commentary...

Acomb connection Paul Harris: Pretty sure he was in the building trade.
'Harris's speciality is joinery'
From drinking den to friendly pub

If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in relation to Alistair Cooper for PCJ. Does this mean an alibi or something else? Where did AC and PH meet, what was the nature of their friendship? What, if any, business relations did they have? As a pub landlord but other vocations too. I don't recognise PH from the Nag's. I do wonder if the Acomb and NH Heworth had business connections also.
Mr Harris, who has run the pub in the west of York, three miles from where Ms Lawrence lived, for 11 years, said: 'The police have told me I was arrested because a woman came forward recently saying something that contradicted what I said in a statement taken at the time Claudia went missing. 'I can't say who it is who came forward, or what was in the statement, but what I can say is that I volunteered to give the police a statement at the time.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704364/Pub-landlord-Paul-Harris-arrested-Claudia-Lawrence-police-protests-innocence.html
Another paper mentioned his wife had voluntarily gone to the police station so I wondered if she worked behind the bar (likely) and gave a different version of when CL had last been in the Acomb, hence the PCJ charge -but who else was CL seen with, apart from her kitchen porter friend AN?? Was it AC?

Can you recall ACs occupation from when you worked in the pub? Was he a tradesman? It's just that the sandy mac description doesn't fit with the average builder's gear.

Jen as I said gave a death stare then bought me a drink.
Was that her way of warning you, as you suggest? Playing devil's advocate, was she trying to avoid SC becoming upset and emotional (again)?

Also we know of six arrests. Who are the other three? Are all of them still alive?
AC, PR, DR, SR, MS, PH . what other 3?! Is that anecdotal/local or do you have a link please?

 

[moonsafari]

I still struggle over the phone though. If you wee disposing of a body, would you not throw the backpack in and anything Claudia had on her person? If this happened you would not get an "Explicit" phone detachment from the network (It being turned off). Unless of course they wanted to keep personal belongings separate so as to make any identification more difficult-I doubt this though.

We don't know where Claudia is. We don't know if she was at some point separated from her phone/bag/contents. Even though the phone was switched off, it could be that it and she were disposed of at the same time.

W/out sign Claudia tried to call police/fam/friends presumably she was KO'd if not dead. The more I think about it if she wasn't KO'd, hiding the phone rather than attempting to call 999 discreetly suggests she must have been somewhere with no signal. What network and where are the signal problem areas within the 9 mile radius? Was she in a basement area somewhere? Can investigators tell if and when her phone had no signal?
If she managed to hide the phone on her person, 12.10 could be the time the next phase of her abduction took place and she was moved, as in phone was found in a pocket. If the phone was on her person that means she never left the area until at least after 12.10, March 19th 2009. If it wasn't, by 12.10--
21.30 - 12.10 is just under fifteen hours--she could have been driven as far as the Highlands or Cornwall in that time. She had her housekeys at some point: her passport was left at her house. Removing such an item would create possibilities that jive with the timeline at hand and yet that didn't happen. Is it possible she applied for a new passport in the weeks leading up to her disappearance? What could that mean?

 

[MajorLang]

Last met with Jen in 2015, wrote the Medium post around the decade anniversary, partially out of guilt for not being together enough to have offered help to the police, people who genuinely want to solve this horrible mystery, at the time

Would you describe Jen as a Narcissist or perhaps a Sociopath, trying to get into people minds and influencing them?

 

[moonsafari]

@moonsafari
Lots to pick over in your interesting commentary...

Acomb connection Paul Harris: Pretty sure he was in the building trade.
'Harris's speciality is joinery'
From drinking den to friendly pub

If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in relation to Alistair Cooper for PCJ. Does this mean an alibi or something else? Where did AC and PH meet, what was the nature of their friendship? What, if any, business relations did they have? As a pub landlord but other vocations too. I don't recognise PH from the Nag's. I do wonder if the Acomb and NH Heworth had business connections also.
Mr Harris, who has run the pub in the west of York, three miles from where Ms Lawrence lived, for 11 years, said: 'The police have told me I was arrested because a woman came forward recently saying something that contradicted what I said in a statement taken at the time Claudia went missing. 'I can't say who it is who came forward, or what was in the statement, but what I can say is that I volunteered to give the police a statement at the time.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704364/Pub-landlord-Paul-Harris-arrested-Claudia-Lawrence-police-protests-innocence.html
Another paper mentioned his wife had voluntarily gone to the police station so I wondered if she worked behind the bar (likely) and gave a different version of when CL had last been in the Acomb, hence the PCJ charge -but who else was CL seen with, apart from her kitchen porter friend AN?? Was it AC?

Can you recall ACs occupation from when you worked in the pub? Was he a tradesman? It's just that the sandy mac description doesn't fit with the average builder's gear.

Jen as I said gave a death stare then bought me a drink.
Was that her way of warning you, as you suggest? Playing devil's advocate, was she trying to avoid SC becoming upset and emotional (again)?

Also we know of six arrests. Who are the other three? Are all of them still alive?
AC, PR, DR, SR, MS, PH . what other 3?! Is that anecdotal/local or do you have a link please?

Post ten year anniversary media reports all say that nine people in total have been arrested and released without charge

 

[moonsafari]

Would you describe Jen as a Narcissist or perhaps a Sociopath, trying to get into people minds and influencing them?

Not before CL disappeared. But these situations can twist people, especially with all the media attention

 

[MajorLang]

We don't know where Claudia is. We don't know if she was at some point separated from her phone/bag/contents. Even though the phone was switched off, it could be that it and she were disposed of at the same time.

W/out sign Claudia tried to call police/fam/friends presumably she was KO'd if not dead. The more I think about it if she wasn't KO'd, hiding the phone rather than attempting to call 999 discreetly suggests she must have been somewhere with no signal. What network and where are the signal problem areas within the 9 mile radius? Was she in a basement area somewhere? Can investigators tell if and when her phone had no signal?
If she managed to hide the phone on her person, 12.10 could be the time the next phase of her abduction took place and she was moved, as in phone was found in a pocket. If the phone was on her person that means she never left the area until at least after 12.10, March 19th 2009. If it wasn't, by 12.10--
21.30 - 12.10 is just under fifteen hours--she could have been driven as far as the Highlands or Cornwall in that time. She had her housekeys at some point: her passport was left at her house. Removing such an item would create possibilities that jive with the timeline at hand and yet that didn't happen. Is it possible she applied for a new passport in the weeks leading up to her disappearance? What could that mean?

She could have the 15 hours to go or taken anywhere but her phone couldn't be taken outside of the Acomb mast but she could have gone or be taken as far as anyone wanted to. Phone turned off in Acomb mast area.
Thanks
I always wondered why Police named the case in the beginning as "Operation Cabin"?
Perhaps that those who know police procedures may be able to comment?

 

[MajorLang]

We don't know where Claudia is. We don't know if she was at some point separated from her phone/bag/contents. Even though the phone was switched off, it could be that it and she were disposed of at the same time.

W/out sign Claudia tried to call police/fam/friends presumably she was KO'd if not dead. The more I think about it if she wasn't KO'd, hiding the phone rather than attempting to call 999 discreetly suggests she must have been somewhere with no signal. What network and where are the signal problem areas within the 9 mile radius? Was she in a basement area somewhere? Can investigators tell if and when her phone had no signal?
If she managed to hide the phone on her person, 12.10 could be the time the next phase of her abduction took place and she was moved, as in phone was found in a pocket. If the phone was on her person that means she never left the area until at least after 12.10, March 19th 2009. If it wasn't, by 12.10--
21.30 - 12.10 is just under fifteen hours--she could have been driven as far as the Highlands or Cornwall in that time. She had her housekeys at some point: her passport was left at her house. Removing such an item would create possibilities that jive with the timeline at hand and yet that didn't happen. Is it possible she applied for a new passport in the weeks leading up to her disappearance? What could that mean?

The whole "Explicit" and "non Explicit" detachments of phones from nearest mast are a learning curve for me.
Explicit being that it is a deliberate action by someone in turning the phone off.
Non explicit being that the phone runs out of battery, is damaged in some way-water etc.
What it suggests though is that Police could see phone was in Acomb area 9 miles radius and hadn't had a non explicit or explicit detachment until 12:10 But what if there is no signal-Is that a non explicit detachment for a period of time-Not a question for you @moonsafari Unless of course you are a mobile communications savvy expert

 

[moonsafari]

@moonsafari
Lots to pick over in your interesting commentary...

Acomb connection Paul Harris: Pretty sure he was in the building trade.
'Harris's speciality is joinery'
From drinking den to friendly pub

If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in relation to Alistair Cooper for PCJ. Does this mean an alibi or something else? Where did AC and PH meet, what was the nature of their friendship? What, if any, business relations did they have? As a pub landlord but other vocations too. I don't recognise PH from the Nag's. I do wonder if the Acomb and NH Heworth had business connections also.
Mr Harris, who has run the pub in the west of York, three miles from where Ms Lawrence lived, for 11 years, said: 'The police have told me I was arrested because a woman came forward recently saying something that contradicted what I said in a statement taken at the time Claudia went missing. 'I can't say who it is who came forward, or what was in the statement, but what I can say is that I volunteered to give the police a statement at the time.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2704364/Pub-landlord-Paul-Harris-arrested-Claudia-Lawrence-police-protests-innocence.html
Another paper mentioned his wife had voluntarily gone to the police station so I wondered if she worked behind the bar (likely) and gave a different version of when CL had last been in the Acomb, hence the PCJ charge -but who else was CL seen with, apart from her kitchen porter friend AN?? Was it AC?

Can you recall ACs occupation from when you worked in the pub? Was he a tradesman? It's just that the sandy mac description doesn't fit with the average builder's gear.

Jen as I said gave a death stare then bought me a drink.
Was that her way of warning you, as you suggest? Playing devil's advocate, was she trying to avoid SC becoming upset and emotional (again)?

Also we know of six arrests. Who are the other three? Are all of them still alive?
AC, PR, DR, SR, MS, PH . what other 3?! Is that anecdotal/local or do you have a link please?

Could be re: SC and Jen's intentions about the stare. Pretty sure AC was in some kind of trade, building and the like. I wonder about painting/decorating too. His mac was distinctive from his usual casual workers gear and boots, hence my comments about it and the sighting