UK UK - Claudia Lawrence, 35, Chef, York University, 18 March 2009 #4

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Another thought regarding the CCTV images...
Are we being blinded here?
We are all assuming that the Dark clothed person walking into Heworth Place, is the same Dark clothed person leaving Heworth Place a short time later, but what if those images a minute or so apart are actually 2 different people? In those images, it does not look as if the person walking into Heworth Place is carrying anything, but when leaving they possibly are.
So, consider this - Dark Person 1 goes into the alleyway via Heworth Place, but Dark Person 2 goes into the alleyway via the Nags Head Car Park... Dark Person 1 leaves via the Nags Head Car Park and Dark Person 2 leaves via Heworth Place.
What if this was a drug exchange (or other illegal activity) happening, either in the alleyway or car park... Could Claudia have heard a commotion while she was in the bathroom and gone outside to investigate? Recognise the person(s) involved and she then become a target for what she had seen?
Or it could even have been as you say 2 different people keeping watch on Claudia's house and "changing shifts"
Or
What if they met in the alley, one decided to cover the back door and then one goes to her front door.
If Claudia tried to flee then all her exits are blocked.
 
Or it could even have been as you say 2 different people keeping watch on Claudia's house and "changing shifts"
Or
What if they met in the alley, one decided to cover the back door and then one goes to her front door.
If Claudia tried to flee then all her exits are blocked.
And was the evening a "dry run" for the next morning??
 
And was the evening a "dry run" for the next morning??
Perhaps not a dry run but if she obviously didn't open her door in the evening at that time (we know that she spoke to mum and dad after dark person seen) They then took the next opportunity when she came out the next morning to go to work.

One bundles her back into the house, he lets the other one in. She is either incapacitated or worse and they bundle her out of the house rear door, along the alley into Nags car park. Ray the Chef is away so no chance he will see anyone in car park and they bundle her into the breaking car that was slowing down to turn into Nags.

Only the police will know where that car goes next, if it even does.
Plate change, swap with car in garage at rear of Nags.
 
Perhaps not a dry run but if she obviously didn't open her door in the evening at that time (we know that she spoke to mum and dad after dark person seen) They then took the next opportunity when she came out the next morning to go to work.

One bundles her back into the house, he lets the other one in. She is either incapacitated or worse and they bundle her out of the house rear door, along the alley into Nags car park. Ray the Chef is away so no chance he will see anyone in car park and they bundle her into the breaking car that was slowing down to turn into Nags.

Only the police will know where that car goes next, if it even does.
Plate change, swap with car in garage at rear of Nags.

The possibilities are endless, but I totally agree that the car turning into the Car Park, to get to the garage, seems logical.
Would love to know if the police did find any further CCTV images of a car matching that description.

I'm still trying to get my head around the scenario of her being taken (against her will) from home and then being able to set the scene to make it look "normal".

This may be totally irrelevant (POI being a locksmith!), but I wonder what type of locks Claudia had on both the front and back door.
Did they require a key to "lock" or did they lock automatically once shut? Did Claudia leave a key in the back door itself, or did she leave it on a hook or shelf nearby? How many keys did she have to this lock and were they all accounted for? Could the back door have been locked from both the inside and outside?
If the back door had a 5 lever mortice lock, it would require a key. When Peter and George entered the property, I would assume that they checked the garden... Did they find the back door locked? Did they find the back door key? If they found the key in the lock, I would suggest that one of the perps had to have left via the front door. We know Claudia would have left with her house keys (and these were not found during the search of the property), but would she have had a back door key on her bunch?
 
The possibilities are endless, but I totally agree that the car turning into the Car Park, to get to the garage, seems logical.
Would love to know if the police did find any further CCTV images of a car matching that description.

I'm still trying to get my head around the scenario of her being taken (against her will) from home and then being able to set the scene to make it look "normal".

This may be totally irrelevant (POI being a locksmith!), but I wonder what type of locks Claudia had on both the front and back door.
Did they require a key to "lock" or did they lock automatically once shut? Did Claudia leave a key in the back door itself, or did she leave it on a hook or shelf nearby? How many keys did she have to this lock and were they all accounted for? Could the back door have been locked from both the inside and outside?
If the back door had a 5 lever mortice lock, it would require a key. When Peter and George entered the property, I would assume that they checked the garden... Did they find the back door locked? Did they find the back door key? If they found the key in the lock, I would suggest that one of the perps had to have left via the front door. We know Claudia would have left with her house keys (and these were not found during the search of the property), but would she have had a back door key on her bunch?
And a typical burglary trick is to lock the doors from the outside so if the occupants wake up they can't give chase
Basically locking her in.
 
Regarding drugs in the lane (this has been discussed before and in fact I mentioned it on fb today) don't you think it would have to be a very substantial disturbed drug venture to warrant murder? Could explain the hesitating of the man, ie guilty conscience.? She definitely went out of her house by car as she has never been seen on cctv. Who's car? Did she see both a drop off and pick up and that was enough to warrant her removal? I doubt it....unless she picked it up herself and that was the problem?? ..those men are way too coincidental not to be involved. I'm going back to another reason...the man was checking she was in that eve..Maybe checking neighbours not in too? Morning the same...but this time he/others got her into car. Why? Weird sexual thing? To get his drugs back? Revenge?
 
A comment on FB got me thinking again about the CCTV footage of the person walking into Heworth Place.
We know that of the 5 cameras at the Limes, only two were chosen to show footage.
1. The braking car in the morning
2. The person walking into Heworth Place

The Braking car footage came from a camera at the front of the Limes-Facing Heworth Road
The person in Heworth Place came from camera in Limes car park


What is interesting here though is that the braking car camera could have been used to show the face-Full on of the person walking into Heworth Place-If the police really wanted to get people to come forward, why didn't they do a screen shot of that footage and show the person????

I attach a screen shot of what they could have shown but didnt?

@MajorLang, if we put this together with the theory that there are two people involved in the Heworth Place CCTV images, it's possible they know who one of them is and that's why those images have not been released? Perhaps the reason for one of the arrests?
 
Regarding drugs in the lane (this has been discussed before and in fact I mentioned it on fb today) don't you think it would have to be a very substantial disturbed drug venture to warrant murder? Could explain the hesitating of the man, ie guilty conscience.? She definitely went out of her house by car as she has never been seen on cctv. Who's car? Did she see both a drop off and pick up and that was enough to warrant her removal? I doubt it....unless she picked it up herself and that was the problem?? ..those men are way too coincidental not to be involved. I'm going back to another reason...the man was checking she was in that eve..Maybe checking neighbours not in too? Morning the same...but this time he/others got her into car. Why? Weird sexual thing? To get his drugs back? Revenge?

If only we knew that all important motive!
 
Yes, I am not saying the dark person was guilty but perhaps an admirer who was staying over at Nags. @moonsafari may be able to help here. Ray the chef was away on holiday. I think it was Jim Melsom wh let the draymen in early.
Did Jum double up or cover as Chef when Ray was away. If he did then although Jim was a portly chap, could this have been him or perhaps one of Bar staff?

Drayman? As I posted that was Dave the bar man, who lived next door to Quartz Travel
 
I've just watched a documentary about 5 mistakes that Ian Huntley made which led to him being caught (the Soham murders). One was that he switched off a mobile phone, belonging to one of the girls, in his house. A phone expert was consulted by police (this was 2002) who pinpointed the phone's 'goodbye signal' as being made either inside or right outside Huntley's house. Was this lucky or can a signal really pinpointed this accurately? Remember this was 17 years ago whereas the area indicated by NY Police as recently as June 2019 where CL's phone was switched off is sizeable.
 
I've just watched a documentary about 5 mistakes that Ian Huntley made which led to him being caught (the Soham murders). One was that he switched off a mobile phone, belonging to one of the girls, in his house. A phone expert was consulted by police (this was 2002) who pinpointed the phone's 'goodbye signal' as being made either inside or right outside Huntley's house. Was this lucky or can a signal really pinpointed this accurately? Remember this was 17 years ago whereas the area indicated by NY Police as recently as June 2019 where CL's phone was switched off is sizeable.

Wow, if that's the case, maybe they do know?
Just a thought, if it was switched off in a moving car though, would it be as accurate?
 
Wow, if that's the case, maybe they do know?
Just a thought, if it was switched off in a moving car though, would it be as accurate?
Have just followed it up and it seems they got lucky.
However, read below about establishing 'signal hotspots'. I wonder if this has been done in the CL investigation? I guess this might only be possible when the signal in the area is known to be weak and not sure this is the case here.

'there were only a small number of locations in Soham where the Burwell beacon provides an adequate signal.....Mr Latham displayed on screen a map marked with four red circles that he described as the "hotspots" where the signal from Burwell was strongest. Within the suggested area of the girls' movements, the only location where - according to the expert - Jessica's phone is likely to have been deregistered from the Vodafone network through the Burwell beacon is in the area by Soham Village College, right outside number 5."

Jessica's mobile 'is vital clue to murder'
 
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Thank you @moonsafari Was JK still working at Nags in March 2009?

I don't know.

CCTV - re: the five cameras. Are we certain they were all in action before March 18th/19th 2009 and that one/two/three weren't added following investigation into Claudia's disappearance and identifying blind spots? Remember Martin Dales was a keen CCTV activist before Claudia vanished, there are local Press articles to prove so. The lack of progress in the investigation that led PL to focus some of his energy on Claudia's Law could well have also led MD back to CCTV lobbying.

Kiri from what I can tell it's not possible to attain a close enough front shot before the POI turns onto HP from that distance and at that angle, but as Yozzer recently posted imaging technology now exists to make a zoom of these stills clearer. The phantom figure across the road question could potentially be answered outright via that camera view as it is though, surely...

Dark person walks back onto HR from HP towards CL house and NH. Only if they cross the road before the bookies on HR would doing so be viewable on HR CCTV, and only would police hold footage back if whatever else they might have been able to see is vital to the prosecution and/or witness testimonies. Bear in mind PR property is in shot across that stretch of HR.

At this point I am torn between Claudia's murder being one of the 90% of cases that are solved by unravelling a family/social/romantic web to identify the culprit/s, incl hired killers, and the 10% that are totally random or committed by near strangers.

If it's the 10%, then unless CL was abducted on the way to somewhere with her overnight bag the evening of March 18th or after being there on an unknown route next morning, in which case a secret boyfriend's silence really has made things 1000x more difficult and he should be prosecuted for it, it must have happened on her way to work before Melrosegate post office CCTV. The glaring opportunity is from the cycle track as was established early on, with St Nicolas fields off to the left and the far end of the back gardens along one side of Fifth Avenue on the right.

If she walked along Tang Hall Lane to start her shift at Goodricke College that morning (we still don't know this for sure although the NYP website timeline states she was to begin a 6am shift at Roger Kirk Centre cafe) there'd be CCTV at the promenade of shops 10-15 mins walk into her journey-- just after another entrance to the cycle track--one of which is the Co-op where an ex colleague who was sought in a CCTV appeal by NYP but never came forward allegedly speaks to the cashier about knowing Claudia a week or two after she disappeared. Seems to me there must be have been more to the exchange than is broadly explained to warrant said appeal. Another business along that promenade is a Thomas the Bakers that I'm pretty sure was an independent bakery for many years before that. When I heard about the psychic and her vision of an old bakery and railway tracks, I thought of the Rowntrees factory goods railway line that was turned into York's cycle track in the 80's and 90's.

As per a Reddit poster living along THL whose home was searched: police barely checked anything, not even the shed. A responsible investigation would have thoroughly searched every home and garden along Fifth Avenue and the ones on Alcuin and Eighth Ave (could be mixing street names up here but I can't access GMaps on my phone, you get the jist) that back onto that stretch of cycle track especially.

As a locksmith, SR's arrest could relate to a theory police had. As PR's brother and possible alibi, perhaps he was bait to extract truths about PR, AC and/or DR, pit loyalty to each other against loyalty to the others and JK, and ofc Claudia, in order to establish what seemed most likely to have happened under pressure.

Did police really, as JK told The Times, tell her that DR had admitted to Claudia's murder? Would police bother correcting an outright lie if not?

Presumably they suspected she was covering for him in some way and that his admission of guilt might prompt her to tell them what that is. Or he was implicating her and they wanted to see her reaction to an alleged admission from him. They weren't close with Snelling, unless that changed. I can only assume they suspect him more than they do each other but maybe not. Maybe police suspect Snelling *and* one or more of the four even. Indeed, if Claudia is buried somewhere at the uni it makes sense that more than one person she knew had restricted access to the grounds and buildings at the time from the perspective of the perp/s.

JK does write in her FB post that some rather than all of the arrested "loved Claudia and miss her even more" - who was indifferent to her? Was there significant divergence between each suspect's opinion of Claudia, each other, perhaps JK and even SC too? Do kinder words about CL imply innocence of the charges?

Was JK, under interrogation, veering towards implicating DR to police who then said he admitted it to gauge her reaction and perhaps attempt to establish if JK knew before or after the fact that Claudia was in danger?
 
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