UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #2

[MidsummersDay]

2 garages, travelodge, McDonald's, BK and American Diner

Like this?

 

[suzyjackson]

Uncle Tony says its all about finance and the police basically not having any. I bet that the police thought he would probably turn up within a day or so.

Now look! Hope they have learned a lesson from this...


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I can sympathise with the police, statistically young men who disappear after a night out do tend to turn up eventually be it good or bad outcomes. IMO there was no way they could have forseen how this would turn out, they won't have the budget or resources to go all out immediately for every mising person

 

[c4nd1_83]

Another thing. If he was taken up into one of them dodgy flats around that corner, there was a 2-3 day window where a person/persons had time to prep, plan...

CCTV for those days/nights been looked at? Doubtful. To busy focusing on a few hours window from the last time he was seen...

For arguments sake lets say, he went up into the flats! Taken up there by a mentally unstable person as indicated by Uncle Tony. They put his phone in the bin. His phone went on its way. But Corrie remains in the flats. 2-3 days/nights.

Its far out there, but completely possible. Everyone could be looking at the wrong time frame.


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[JamesKing]

Note that Uncle Tony has made it clear that their are people in the flats nearby that stay in those flats and these people are not of sane mind. He indicates that this could be something to go on. This is clearly something he is serious about keeping an eye on.

He says that its possible Corrie may have walked into a drug deal round that corner and something may have happened then.

There are 2 cars unaccounted for which visited that area in the timeframe, 1 of which went the wrong way down the 1 way system which he indicates great concern. Police have not seen this footage as the family went knocking on doors themselves to gather information and was showed this CCTV. I am guessing the police have now seen it. Shocking! Only 6 weeks later!

I think now this is why they are asking for these people to come forward if they were traveling in a vehicle so they can start the lengthly process of eliminating cars and narrowing it down. Clearly the CCTV didnt pick up reg numbers though as I would think they would be straight on that otherwise and we would not of heard about this.

If no one comes forward for these 2 cars in the coming days now they made the appeal today for it, well.........

Tony is 99% sure Corrie left in a vehicle.... based on his intelligence, I believe him. Corrie was taken from that dead end for whatever reason, we may never know why or what happened that night.


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It "could be" two cars. It "could be" one and the same car. At the moment, they are only leads. Leads which Suffolk plod had no intention of finding !

 

[hermes&&]

I can sympathise with the police, statistically young men who disappear after a night out do tend to turn up eventually be it good or bad outcomes. IMO there was no way they could have forseen how this would turn out, they won't have the budget or resources to go all out immediately for every mising person

I respectfully disagree, in the light of Marham which Tony repeatedly mentions, they should have assumed it might be connected out if an abundance of caution.

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[Amonet]

The police maybe need a different type of warrant to search through general cell tower data compared to a warrant to search only for Corrie's data...it's a pretty heavy thing to search through cell phone/mobile phone data and is going to be covered by different laws than watching people and cars on CCTV. I guess it would also require a larger team of specialists to do that kind of work.

I kinda think that the police have to work through probabilities. In the first few days the most likely scenario is that someone may have chosen to go somewhere of their own volition, or that due to the drinking they may have had an accident with no one else involved. While you get started on the footwork of ruling out those things, you've got to get a start on things like victimology, checking bank accounts and computers, talking to friends, family and bosses to get a better picture of the person. Check out the last known location, talk to people in the club, learn that Corrie went to the fast food shop, find the CCTV for *his* movements that night and see if anything obvious jumps out as a lead you can follow.

The problem is that no leads whatsoever have come out, which I think is pretty rare in an investigation.

 

[c4nd1_83]

Has it been said if the sniffer dogs went around that dead end and up to the flats?


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[MidsummersDay]

[video=youtube;ZOzWZADCR98]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOzWZADCR98[/video]

That video has just spoke a thousand words to me. MY OPINION ONLY:
I really do have a very strong feeling that he's been mugged by the bins, relieved of the contents of his pockets, his phone dumped in the bins, his wallet taken and Corrie....(unknown location). Jeez, i feel genuinely sick now.

 

[c4nd1_83]

The police maybe need a different type of warrant to search through general cell tower data compared to a warrant to search only for Corrie's data...it's a pretty heavy thing to search through cell phone/mobile phone data and is going to be covered by different laws than watching people and cars on CCTV. I guess it would also require a larger team of specialists to do that kind of work.

I kinda think that the police have to work through probabilities. In the first few days the most likely scenario is that someone may have chosen to go somewhere of their own volition, or that due to the drinking they may have had an accident with no one else involved. While you get started on the footwork of ruling out those things, you've got to get a start on things like victimology, checking bank accounts and computers, talking to friends, family and bosses to get a better picture of the person. Check out the last known location, talk to people in the club, learn that Corrie went to the fast food shop, find the CCTV for *his* movements that night and see if anything obvious jumps out as a lead you can follow.

The problem is that no leads whatsoever have come out, which I think is pretty rare in an investigation.

No leads is what brings me to think I have had 6 weeks to process all the info.

2 possibilities:

He didn't leave that dead end on that night because he was either in the boot of a parked car or in the flats Tony has indicated are unsavoury, and that person/persons who took him for whatever reason had 2-3 days to leave that area which I don't think anyone has thought about looking at that CCTV for the days following with a complete focus on who is coming in and out of that area.

Mobile phone is a red herring here. That was thrown in the bin by whoever did this. Ended up in the bin lorry, to the landfill.

OR, these 2 unaccounted cars have taken him...


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[Amonet]

I'm not saying this to 'diss' the idea, but mentally unstable people tend to act in certain ways. It would depend on the nature of the instability but dumping the phone for forensic reasons shouldn't come into it. It would be more like someone's talking loudly on the phone outside their flat, it sets them off and they throw the phone hard and start up a loud scene with the person who was causing annoyance to them. It's possible they might throw the phone into a bin if that's the source of their annoyance, but both Corrie and this person would be fighting and shouting loudly enough that someone would remember, because Corrie's strong enough to take care of himself, and anyone who could take him on in a fight would result in a noisy fight at 4 in the morning. I think someone would have to go out with a cast iron frying pan and manage to sneak up and whack Corrie on the head before Corrie could fight back, and then put the phone in the bin, and then this unstable person has to either drag a semi-conscious man to their flat without leaving a forensic trace, and then keep this man quiet and unable to escape until they can get him into a car or van and get him out the flat, into the car and drive off with him to somewhere that hasn't been searched. And if we're talking about an extreme level of mental instability then there's a high chance that even if someone like that attacked someone outside their own home, they'd leave the person in situ and just go back home, grateful that whatever was annoying them is no longer annoying them.

Even a street drug deal shouldn't be enough of a thing for this complete disappearance to happen...a larger transfer of drugs/money should happen inside a building, not in the street. If someone got a large cardboard box out of a car or van to take into a flat, then no one walking by would know what was in it.

Another thing. If he was taken up into one of them dodgy flats around that corner, there was a 2-3 day window where a person/persons had time to prep, plan...

CCTV for those days/nights been looked at? Doubtful. To busy focusing on a few hours window from the last time he was seen...

For arguments sake lets say, he went up into the flats! Taken up there by a mentally unstable person as indicated by Uncle Tony. They put his phone in the bin. His phone went on its way. But Corrie remains in the flats. 2-3 days/nights.

Its far out there, but completely possible. Everyone could be looking at the wrong time frame.


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[MidsummersDay]

Well, the cctv camera (from the perspective of this daytime coverage) has no chance of seeing the red car currently parked up there....nor the big white van.

If anyone was parked up there, you wouldn't be using that place to relieve yourself.

So if he was going for a pee, it follows that there was no car parked there (at least with no one in it).
Speculating that, if he was attacked "there" and his phone was dumped in the bin "there" ....how does he get taken to a car (because it's likely there wasn't one there).

Whereas.... if there was a car parked there, with someone in it, then he wasn't going for a pee ! (if the phone was dumped in the bin).

I can argue for and against a load of theories with this one. If he's meeting someone for a lift home then the lift would probably be waiting for him, thus ruling out a 'snatch' or mugging incident because the pre arranged lift would see them (unless it happened prior to the lift arriving (was this one of the vehicles mentioned?)).

 

[Gene Hunt]

Something I've just read but know nothing about....apparently the type of phone Corrie has holds 2 sim cards & COULD support 2 different networks at the same time??

 

[Amonet]

But even with that, and other possibilities on the table, how do the police go about investigating the possibility if they have no leads?

Surely all they can do is check CCTV for car numbers or persons acting suspiciously, then you still have to run those car numbers, ID the people, etc. Alongside this you can report the disappearance to MI5 and have them check intelligence and chatter. And at the same time you have the phone lines open for tips, you send out searchers, you keep talking to family and friends and anything else that local and county police do.

It doesn't appear to me that the police have closed down any lines of inquiry or investigation and that they've been covering everything they can think of, just that most of it will be behind the scenes stuff.

I respectfully disagree, in the light of Marham which Tony repeatedly mentions, they should have assumed it might be connected out if an abundance of caution.

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[hermes&&]

But even with that, and other possibilities on the table, how do the police go about investigating the possibility if they have no leads?

Surely all they can do is check CCTV for car numbers or persons acting suspiciously, then you still have to run those car numbers, ID the people, etc. Alongside this you can report the disappearance to MI5 and have them check intelligence and chatter. And at the same time you have the phone lines open for tips, you send out searchers, you keep talking to family and friends and anything else that local and county police do.

It doesn't appear to me that the police have closed down any lines of inquiry or investigation and that they've been covering everything they can think of, just that most of it will be behind the scenes stuff.

But they stated very early on that no third party was involved and that this was nothing to do with his job. In the light of Marham neither statement should have been made without good reason. And the family have taken issue with those statements.

So early on they should have taken all CCTV, alerted mi5. Put an alert out to ports, accepted more help from other agencies, and told the public we are not ruling out a link to Marham so every body be careful especially military guys out by themselves.

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[MidsummersDay]

@Amonet

The bending down to pick something up was the ~1:20am footage
The doorway he slept/ate in is on the left of the car parked in the video @~33 seconds. I suspect the footage we haven't seen of Corrie in the doorway is a combination of Greenwoods CCTV and internal Hughes CCTV.

Just for reference, this is Hughes doorway where Corrie 'took a nap' until 0308. He was then seen in the second cctv footage at 0324.

 

[hazel324]

Another thing. If he was taken up into one of them dodgy flats around that corner, there was a 2-3 day window where a person/persons had time to prep, plan...

CCTV for those days/nights been looked at? Doubtful. To busy focusing on a few hours window from the last time he was seen...

For arguments sake lets say, he went up into the flats! Taken up there by a mentally unstable person as indicated by Uncle Tony. They put his phone in the bin. His phone went on its way. But Corrie remains in the flats. 2-3 days/nights.

Its far out there, but completely possible. Everyone could be looking at the wrong time frame.


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Not too far out there....I for one would give it as much merit as any other hypothesis.

Based on the limited public known facts in the last confirmed 1 hour window all we have to go on is Corrie was definitely in Short Brackland area just before 3.30 and his phone traveled to Mildenhall during the following hour

A hidden, dark area is good for a number of dodgy activities....it’s possible he came across something going on, was bopped on the head and taken into a nearby property. If LE hasn’t managed to pin down all relevant CCTV from the early hours of that Sat morning in 6 weeks....how likely is it that footage from Sat night-Sun night will have been checked..? (answer: not very!)

 

[c4nd1_83]

I'm not saying this to 'diss' the idea, but mentally unstable people tend to act in certain ways. It would depend on the nature of the instability but dumping the phone for forensic reasons shouldn't come into it. It would be more like someone's talking loudly on the phone outside their flat, it sets them off and they throw the phone hard and start up a loud scene with the person who was causing annoyance to them. It's possible they might throw the phone into a bin if that's the source of their annoyance, but both Corrie and this person would be fighting and shouting loudly enough that someone would remember, because Corrie's strong enough to take care of himself, and anyone who could take him on in a fight would result in a noisy fight at 4 in the morning. I think someone would have to go out with a cast iron frying pan and manage to sneak up and whack Corrie on the head before Corrie could fight back, and then put the phone in the bin, and then this unstable person has to either drag a semi-conscious man to their flat without leaving a forensic trace, and then keep this man quiet and unable to escape until they can get him into a car or van and get him out the flat, into the car and drive off with him to somewhere that hasn't been searched. And if we're talking about an extreme level of mental instability then there's a high chance that even if someone like that attacked someone outside their own home, they'd leave the person in situ and just go back home, grateful that whatever was annoying them is no longer annoying them.

Even a street drug deal shouldn't be enough of a thing for this complete disappearance to happen...a larger transfer of drugs/money should happen inside a building, not in the street. If someone got a large cardboard box out of a car or van to take into a flat, then no one walking by would know what was in it.

I get you... Anything is possible these days though... And in the light of no leads, no CCTV, no sightings, It leads me to think he was still in or around that area and was moved later.


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[Amonet]

I don't think they did ever say there was no third party involved, only that they hadn't yet discovered any third party involvement. I don't recall seeing them ever say it was definitively not terrorism. I've only seen them say that they're keeping all lines of inquiry open and not ruling out anything. Though I do get the feeling that AWOL and suicide are ruled out.

After the police went to the base to get statements and search his room, they could have quietly told MI5. I don't think that's something we'd be told about. I don't think that passing on the "We have a missing serviceman, can you look into this from your end?" message would affect at all the work that the local police still have to do. When the police are sending out sniffer dogs along routes Corrie might have taken, if a trace went 5 miles back to base and ended at the side of a road, then Corrie could have been bundled into a car by terrorists, and then they focus down to things like lift/abduction/terrorism, but right now they can't focus down that tightly.

Messages to forces personnel should be given by their base commander, and they may be told to not take those warnings off base, but it's unlikely that the police would issue that warning to the general public.

It might sound harsh, but getting people scared of terrorist attacks is the terrorists' job, and the government will do all they can to not do the terrorists' job for them. There are other risks out there, child abductors, rapists, people who go crazy when they're cut up on the road, walking home drunk and slipping into a river....It would be irresponsible if the police overplayed that possibility when there are ten other things that might equally have happened.

I think we have to be more of a boy scout mind...be prepared, be alert and aware, but not paranoid of any one thing out of proportion to its actual risk and in so doing forgetting other risks which are higher up on the scale.

But they stated very early on that no third party was involved and that this was nothing to do with his job. In the light of Marham neither statement should have been made without good reason. And the family have taken issue with those statements.

So early on they should have taken all CCTV, alerted mi5. Put an alert out to ports, accepted more help from other agencies, and told the public we are not ruling out a link to Marham so every body be careful especially military guys out by themselves.

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[hermes&&]

I don't think they did ever say there was no third party involved, only that they hadn't yet discovered any third party involvement. I don't recall seeing them ever say it was definitively not terrorism. I've only seen them say that they're keeping all lines of inquiry open and not ruling out anything. Though I do get the feeling that AWOL and suicide are ruled out.

After the police went to the base to get statements and search his room, they could have quietly told MI5. I don't think that's something we'd be told about. I don't think that passing on the "We have a missing serviceman, can you look into this from your end?" message would affect at all the work that the local police still have to do. When the police are sending out sniffer dogs along routes Corrie might have taken, if a trace went 5 miles back to base and ended at the side of a road, then Corrie could have been bundled into a car by terrorists, and then they focus down to things like lift/abduction/terrorism, but right now they can't focus down that tightly.

Messages to forces personnel should be given by their base commander, and they may be told to not take those warnings off base, but it's unlikely that the police would issue that warning to the general public.

It might sound harsh, but getting people scared of terrorist attacks is the terrorists' job, and the government will do all they can to not do the terrorists' job for them. There are other risks out there, child abductors, rapists, people who go crazy when they're cut up on the road, walking home drunk and slipping into a river....It would be irresponsible if the police overplayed that possibility when there are ten other things that might equally have happened.

I think we have to be more of a boy scout mind...be prepared, be alert and aware, but not paranoid of any one thing out of proportion to its actual risk and in so doing forgetting other risks which are higher up on the scale.

But we now have the situation where the family have tracked down critical CCTV that the police didn't obtain and may not have even seen.

And the family are raising the Marham Aldershot link publicly.



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[hazel324]

I'm not saying this to 'diss' the idea, but mentally unstable people tend to act in certain ways. It would depend on the nature of the instability but dumping the phone for forensic reasons shouldn't come into it. It would be more like someone's talking loudly on the phone outside their flat, it sets them off and they throw the phone hard and start up a loud scene with the person who was causing annoyance to them. It's possible they might throw the phone into a bin if that's the source of their annoyance, but both Corrie and this person would be fighting and shouting loudly enough that someone would remember, because Corrie's strong enough to take care of himself, and anyone who could take him on in a fight would result in a noisy fight at 4 in the morning. I think someone would have to go out with a cast iron frying pan and manage to sneak up and whack Corrie on the head before Corrie could fight back, and then put the phone in the bin, and then this unstable person has to either drag a semi-conscious man to their flat without leaving a forensic trace, and then keep this man quiet and unable to escape until they can get him into a car or van and get him out the flat, into the car and drive off with him to somewhere that hasn't been searched. And if we're talking about an extreme level of mental instability then there's a high chance that even if someone like that attacked someone outside their own home, they'd leave the person in situ and just go back home, grateful that whatever was annoying them is no longer annoying them.

Even a street drug deal shouldn't be enough of a thing for this complete disappearance to happen...a larger transfer of drugs/money should happen inside a building, not in the street. If someone got a large cardboard box out of a car or van to take into a flat, then no one walking by would know what was in it.

I agree with what you’re saying in regard to those with bi polar, severe depression etc but it only takes one psychopath (for example) to orchestrate a homicide.

I guess I take everything back to one of my favourite tv shows, Disappeared....it got me hooked on following missing persons cases. It just takes one fateful interaction, often with a third party, in the briefest amount of time...and they’re gone...too often without a trace (or at least a good enough trace to follow)