UK UK - Corrie McKeague, 23, Bury St Edmunds, 24 September 2016 #2

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  • #721
No leads is what brings me to think I have had 6 weeks to process all the info.

2 possibilities:

He didn't leave that dead end on that night because he was either in the boot of a parked car or in the flats Tony has indicated are unsavoury, and that person/persons who took him for whatever reason had 2-3 days to leave that area which I don't think anyone has thought about looking at that CCTV for the days following with a complete focus on who is coming in and out of that area.

Mobile phone is a red herring here. That was thrown in the bin by whoever did this. Ended up in the bin lorry, to the landfill.

OR, these 2 unaccounted cars have taken him...


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"Mobile phone is a red herring here. That was thrown in the bin by whoever did this. Ended up in the bin lorry, to the landfill".


Heh ? Then if the phone went into the bin, it can't be a red herring !

If the phone went in the bin, it's unlikely Corrie had a pee.
If an attacker attacked in the loading bay, Corrie would have already seen someone was there.
Would he have had a pee then ?
I doubt it.

If the phone was in the bin, then it is highly likely (coupled with his previous behaviour) that he didn't go for a pee...
...but still walked into the loading area. And all the videos and pictures show "there is plenty of room to park".

If the phone went into the bin....then it's highly likely Corrie had a pre planned meeting.
 
  • #722
To be honest, my two biggest fears in this case are terrorism, or that Corrie isn't found for months or years and the family have to go back home without any answers and always on edge waiting for 'that' phone call to come. I feel terrible for them and any family who find themselves in this situation :-(

I agree with what you’re saying in regard to those with bi polar, severe depression etc but it only takes one psychopath (for example) to orchestrate a homicide.

I guess I take everything back to one of my favourite tv shows, Disappeared....it got me hooked on following missing persons cases. It just takes one fateful interaction, often with a third party, in the briefest amount of time...and they’re gone...too often without a trace (or at least a good enough trace to follow)
 
  • #723
From what uncle Tony had told us we know corrie didn't walk out, we also know he's not in the bin lorry, and now know that there was an unaccounted for car possibly two that left the area possibly down a one way street we know this from the static camera.

Can they now look at all CCTV including from the hi-def swiveling camera and see when those two cars entered the area they may be able to glean something relevant.

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  • #724
To be honest, my two biggest fears in this case are terrorism, or that Corrie isn't found for months or years and the family have to go back home without any answers and always on edge waiting for 'that' phone call to come. I feel terrible for them and any family who find themselves in this situation :-(

Yes, the distress of a family waiting for answers when a loved one is missing is a most awful place to be and the longer it draws out the more it eats away at their lives. As each “Disappeared” episode is drawing to a close I am thinking please, please find them....which of course so rarely happens. Only just recently read the updates and there have been resolutions for some, whilst not the best outcomes, at least their families have answers.

I also feel it’s possibly an abduction that’s terror related...opportunistic and not difficult to identify a squaddie. Whatever the result (if one is ever reached) I fear sadly there will be no happy ending.
 
  • #725
If you go down the line of "a car parked in the loading area", then you can either speculate that there was.. ...

A. An immediate falling out between whoever and Corrie....and the attacker moved the body.
B. The attacker had pre-planned his attack....but it was pure "fortune" that someone turned up to pee.

And neither of those sit too easy with me.

C. The attacker pre-planned his attack as he knew Corrie would be there at 3.30am....

....thus explaining
#1 why it seems Corrie refused the offer of a lift from the USAF airman
#2 Why Corrie waited for 2 hours before getting up from the doorway, and
#3 The almost "precise time" of 3.30am


EDIT....
Question. Why would he do that for a pre-arranged lift?
Possible Answer. It may not have been a lift he was getting? There are plenty of taxis around.

If you look back through this dialogue, I came up with a potential model that would explain it. Yes it was based on speculation but looking at this walkway video it seems to fit even more (it still may not be the definitive answer):

1. Corrie refuses a lift from the American as he's already arranged a lift. The collection point is behind SUPERDRUG near the bins as this gives easy access DOWN Shortbrackland and back UP Shortbrackland (work out a possible destination from here).

2. He CAN'T be heading towards McDonalds for a burger as he's just eaten.

3. He could have spotted someone in the little alley adjacent to the Nailbar which would explain why he turned around. It would also explain the possible movement in the second video.

4. 0330 seems an easy, throw away time for a collection by vehicle. So does 0315 but 'half three' trips off the tongue easier.

5. If he is mugged behind the bins its out of sight of the CCTV camera. That suggests that the 'perp' is aware of the movements and location of said CCTV camera.

6. If he was meeting work friends from the nightclub which he left, that suggests to me that the location he was last seen in is 'off route' for the taxi to collect him from as the nightclub is in a different routing network. Possible but not probable in my mind.

7. This leaves me to think he's NOT being collected by a local taxi. That he's NOT heading anywhere other than back to base. That his phone is SEPERATE to him.

My comments (although contentious) are designed to stimulate different thought processes we can ask ourselves positive questions and promote healthy critique.
 
  • #726
Now HERE'S a thought. With reference to the three teenagers who were allegedly caught arguing on CCTV by a woman in a flat at 0400 in Shortbrackland...could that have been Corrie a female AND another male? The car is already in Shortbrackland and after an altercation (possible affair and male partner catches them both and confront Corrie?) Corrie enters the car, the mobile is binned...the rest is the puzzle?
 
  • #727
The 3 teenagers shouting is interesting. Am I right in thinking we only saw descriptions for two of them ? If so why if they had cctv ?
Something isn't right with this, it doesn't lay easy with me. Why would three 'teenagers' be arguing at 0400 in the morning? 0100 outside a loud pub/club but 0400 in the morning....in a quiet residential area...? Could one of them be Corrie? It smack of another potential sighting to me!
 
  • #728
Uncle Tony says its all about finance and the police basically not having any. I bet that the police thought he would probably turn up within a day or so.

I'd say it's also linked to the fact that Suffolk is one of the smallest with few bodies to put on any case.

They police an area of a little under 700,000 people with a force of 1,195 sworn officers of whom 249 are special constables, ie part timers.

Compare this with neighbouring Norfolk Constabulary which polices 850,000 with 1,515 officers of whom 291 are specials.

And neighbouring Cambridgeshire Constabulary, also policing 700,000 people but with 1,384 officers.

(All from Wikipedia)

When Suffolk was dealing with the Steve Wright prostitute serial killings about 10 years ago, they very quickly brought in outside help from other forces, includning the Met. They really seem to have misjudged this one completely because AFAIK they are still trying to deal with it on their own.

As policing becomes more technical and the need for specialist units increases, it may become necessary for the aforementioned 3 forces amalgamating as other couty forces have done in the past, either to get critical mass (eg Shropshire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire forces amalgamated to become West Mercia Police) or for geographic reasons (Berkshire, Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire became Thames Valley).
 
  • #729
Note that Uncle Tony has made it clear that their are people in the flats nearby that stay in those flats and these people are not of sane mind. He indicates that this could be something to go on. This is clearly something he is serious about keeping an eye on.

Can you please point me at the update where he says this? I'd like to understand that "not of sane mind" means.

He says that its possible Corrie may have walked into a drug deal round that corner and something may have happened then.

Is it likely that any sort of significant drug deal would be carried out in a public place covered by CCTV? I was under the impression that on-street dealing was small stuff, retail if you like. An ounce of weed, a few tablets, a couple of hits of heroin or suchlike. Not worth attacking anyone over, especially if there was a risk of drawing attention to oneself.
 
  • #730
That video has just spoke a thousand words to me. MY OPINION ONLY:
I really do have a very strong feeling that he's been mugged by the bins, relieved of the contents of his pockets, his phone dumped in the bins, his wallet taken and Corrie....(unknown location). Jeez, i feel genuinely sick now.

I've never heard of muggers then kidnapping their victims. They invariably want to get the hell out of there PDQ. If Corrie had been mugged by the bins I'd expect him to be still there or nearby when the bin lorry came by and therefore probably seen by the driver, not least because if it was a single mugger he'd have had to hit him pretty hard for Corrie not to fight him back and cause a commotion.
 
  • #731
To be honest, my two biggest fears in this case are terrorism, or that Corrie isn't found for months or years and the family have to go back home without any answers and always on edge waiting for 'that' phone call to come. I feel terrible for them and any family who find themselves in this situation :-(

I know many here have pretty well discounted terrorism as a threat to individual service personnel, but it IS something which is being taken seriously. This appeared in the Express (yes, I know) yesterday:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...kill-British-soldier-live-TV-extremism-terror

But it's not the first report of this nature to have appeared in the press in recent months.

Capturing and publicly killing a serviceman on TV in the Middle East is probably less of a propaganda coup than doing so here in the UK.

Also in the Express (yes, I know) is this:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/729354/Islamic-State-German-army-Bundeswehr-terrorist-recruits

Can we be absolutely sure there are none in our own forces passing on inside information to Islamists outside?
 
  • #732
I know many here have pretty well discounted terrorism as a threat to individual service personnel, but it IS something which is being taken seriously. This appeared in the Express (yes, I know) yesterday:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/72...kill-British-soldier-live-TV-extremism-terror

But it's not the first report of this nature to have appeared in the press in recent months.

Capturing and publicly killing a serviceman on TV in the Middle East is probably less of a propaganda coup than doing so here in the UK.

Also in the Express (yes, I know) is this:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/729354/Islamic-State-German-army-Bundeswehr-terrorist-recruits

Can we be absolutely sure there are none in our own forces passing on inside information to Islamists outside?
Discounting terrorism in the light of Marham and Aldershot would be very short sighted.

The figure I saw quoted was 400 fighters had returned to the UK and I believe that was from the defence secretary himself.

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  • #733
I don't think they did ever say there was no third party involved, only that they hadn't yet discovered any third party involvement. I don't recall seeing them ever say it was definitively not terrorism. I've only seen them say that they're keeping all lines of inquiry open and not ruling out anything.

I think the issue here is what the police say and how the media interpret/report it. I remember reading articles like this one on 7th October, with a headline of "Missing Corrie Mckeague: 'No third-party involvement', police believe" and wondering how on earth they'd been able to rule third party involvement out so quickly.

But like you say, the actual police quote in the article is:

"Supt Kim Warner said: "There's absolutely nothing at the moment to suggest any third party involvement, nothing to suggest any criminality. "We're not ruling anything out, but at the moment there's nothing to suggest that is the case - it's a missing person inquiry.""

Which only tells us they haven't yet found any evidence that it's anything other than a missing person enquiry.
 
  • #734
"Mobile phone is a red herring here. That was thrown in the bin by whoever did this. Ended up in the bin lorry, to the landfill".


Heh ? Then if the phone went into the bin, it can't be a red herring !

If the phone went in the bin, it's unlikely Corrie had a pee.
If an attacker attacked in the loading bay, Corrie would have already seen someone was there.
Would he have had a pee then ?
I doubt it.

If the phone was in the bin, then it is highly likely (coupled with his previous behaviour) that he didn't go for a pee...
...but still walked into the loading area. And all the videos and pictures show "there is plenty of room to park".

If the phone went into the bin....then it's highly likely Corrie had a pre planned meeting.

What I meant by red herring, is i think its throwing people off. As even the family have said he wasnt with his phone. So I am not sure if they know something we dont. Everyone is saying about the phone. I literally think it was put into the bin somehow someway...


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  • #735
Can you please point me at the update where he says this? I'd like to understand that "not of sane mind" means.



Is it likely that any sort of significant drug deal would be carried out in a public place covered by CCTV? I was under the impression that on-street dealing was small stuff, retail if you like. An ounce of weed, a few tablets, a couple of hits of heroin or suchlike. Not worth attacking anyone over, especially if there was a risk of drawing attention to oneself.

Its on the radio interview he did a fee days back. Someone posted it on here... go back a few pages you should find it..


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  • #736
I think the issue here is what the police say and how the media interpret/report it. I remember reading articles like this one on 7th October, with a headline of "Missing Corrie Mckeague: 'No third-party involvement', police believe" and wondering how on earth they'd been able to rule third party involvement out so quickly.

But like you say, the actual police quote in the article is:

"Supt Kim Warner said: "There's absolutely nothing at the moment to suggest any third party involvement, nothing to suggest any criminality. "We're not ruling anything out, but at the moment there's nothing to suggest that is the case - it's a missing person inquiry.""

Which only tells us they haven't yet found any evidence that it's anything other than a missing person enquiry.
That's fine if that's what they want to tell the public but behind the scenes they should be assuming the worst and acting accordingly. And when we have the family finding crucial evidence before the police it looks like something is going wrong.

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  • #737
If you look back through this dialogue, I came up with a potential model that would explain it. Yes it was based on speculation but looking at this walkway video it seems to fit even more (it still may not be the definitive answer):

1. Corrie refuses a lift from the American as he's already arranged a lift. The collection point is behind SUPERDRUG near the bins as this gives easy access DOWN Shortbrackland and back UP Shortbrackland (work out a possible destination from here).

2. He CAN'T be heading towards McDonalds for a burger as he's just eaten.

3. He could have spotted someone in the little alley adjacent to the Nailbar which would explain why he turned around. It would also explain the possible movement in the second video.

4. 0330 seems an easy, throw away time for a collection by vehicle. So does 0315 but 'half three' trips off the tongue easier.

5. If he is mugged behind the bins its out of sight of the CCTV camera. That suggests that the 'perp' is aware of the movements and location of said CCTV camera.

6. If he was meeting work friends from the nightclub which he left, that suggests to me that the location he was last seen in is 'off route' for the taxi to collect him from as the nightclub is in a different routing network. Possible but not probable in my mind.

7. This leaves me to think he's NOT being collected by a local taxi. That he's NOT heading anywhere other than back to base. That his phone is SEPERATE to him.

My comments (although contentious) are designed to stimulate different thought processes we can ask ourselves positive questions and promote healthy critique.

@Midsummer

Yep, I get all that.
But (there's always a but) can I question a couple of things.
I don't know the bloomin answer, so it could be anyone's guess.

If he is waiting for a "lift" or "not a local taxi" then I ask, how special is that "lift" ?

If he is waiting. He waits for two hours !
He doesn't call anyone or text anyone. He doesn't ask to be collected earlier. Nothing.
That must be one hell of a "special lift".

If he is heading instead for a local taxi, he is slightly "off route".
But not massively off route. Not at all if he is going for a pee. And in the CCTV it "looks" like he is going for a pee.
If that is so, then we are back to being bemused..... because of that "two hour wait".

So, concentrating on the fact he might be going for a pee....and gets mugged.
When you go for a pee, you check that "the coast is clear". Especially in the place you're about to pee.
But lets say "a mugger was hiding there".
What for, to mug someone having a pee, then incapacitate then. And then kidnap them !
That's one hell of a "random mugger". And the mugger drove there !

So, in a vain attempt to "fit the jigsaw" together, I try to fit "the wait" with his later actions in cctv #2.
If he was meeting someone in the loading bay area at "half three", then that could explain his wait.
It could also explain why he walked that way when entering Short Brackland.
It may also explain how Corrie's phone got into the bin. That bin being the closet to the incident.

But.... that scenario would be "more likely" if the phone was discovered in the "refuse sorting area". And it wasn't !
This is where it gets very tricky.

We are told the refuse was "recyclable". And that it went to a "refuse sorting site".
But the refuse was neither sorted or indeed not searched by the police. So the phone is not found.
A simple answer could be, "that refuse was always destined for the incinerator. And went that weekend".

But I don't know if all this talk of "landfill" and so on, is "mis-direction".

Saying "the phone was in the refuse" would immediately indicate several things....

1. The incident likely happened in the loading area, next to the bins.
2. Corrie was separated from his phone and therefore it is highly likely he was abducted.
3. Corrie could have departed Bury in any direction, tacking his phone is useless.
4. He didn't go for a pee, he wouldn't pee next to a car parked in the loading area with a person in it

And that is why "where the phone was, is massively important" !

So what do we know, that supports ANY of that assumption ?

There was much talk of "landfill". But the refuse was incinerated.
There has been no "large scale General Public search" of the Barton Mills areas. Why risk the public.
There has been no public acceptance by the police of "third party involvement".
There is no public acceptance by the police of the possibility of "abduction".
There is "media suppression" of the story. No "investigatory reporter" has written an article.

The other "crucial" bit about "the phone in the bin" scenario is, it would add weight to the possibility that Corrie was not heading to the bin area for a pee, but instead meeting a person and a vehicle....
....and therefore his meeting was "pre-arranged". And what does that mean ? It could mean he was ambushed.
 
  • #738
From what uncle Tony had told us we know corrie didn't walk out, we also know he's not in the bin lorry, and now know that there was an unaccounted for car possibly two that left the area possibly down a one way street we know this from the static camera.

Can they now look at all CCTV including from the hi-def swiveling camera and see when those two cars entered the area they may be able to glean something relevant.

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They will already have the CCTV from the area at the time so once they narrow down the time these two new vehicles were about it shouldn't take long to cross reference with all the CCTV they already have and lets hope it is better quality and they can get on with identifying the cars quickly. (if one is a ford galaxy or a clio then that will be worrying!)
 
  • #739
I'm not convinced that Corrie was meeting someone in a pre arranged thing at '3.30am' ... he left the club (asked to or not) got food, found somewhere to sit and eat it and fell into a drunken asleep - he didn't set an alarm and cosy down for 2 hours purposefully.

IF there was someone (especially someone in a car) IN Short Brackland, wouldn't they be seen on cctv? If there was and they were seen on cctv then wouldn't police be, at this point, telling us this and asking for info?

It would be helpful to know what he would regularly do on a night out, would he regularly get food and head in that direction?

I don't believe it was anything to do with drugs, I'm not convinced it was a terrorist abduction ...
I am however, intrigued by the 'ex offender house' nearby ...

Sadly I do also think that it could still be a tragic death and just like Adrian Lynch, Corrie will be found by accident one day ...
 
  • #740
.......he didn't set an alarm and cosy down for 2 hours purposefully.
IF there was someone (especially someone in a car) IN Short Brackland, wouldn't they be seen on cctv?


How do you know that he didn't set his alarm for "whatever" time ?
I don't know. The family don't know. The police don't know.

<modsnip>

And the CCTV. Yes, the is a possible camera that could have worked. No idea which way it's facing. Or if it was obstructed. Or if it was working at night. No one has told us !

The family HAS recovered some private CCTV and they say it DOES show a car leaving Short Brackland. They are the ones that recovered this and NOT the police.

So Yes, there is CCTV available. And yes the family have put out an appeal.
 
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