GUILTY UK - Ellie Butler, 6, brutally murdered, Sutton, 28 Oct 2013 #1

[Gigi-G]

Right, that's all the posts read - will call it a night

Forgot to add , the expert I found said "the second skull fracture happened 1-6 hours before death."*
Flutterby's post
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-trial-for-murder-of-daughter-Ellie-(6)/page8

JG got the call at 12.46
Arrived home at 1.50
2.46 amb called
Officially death declared on arrival at hospital at 4.01 but IDK Ellie's status prior to that, ( paramedics records)

Does that really mean death est to have occurred any time between 10 am and 3pm. It's a very wide range considering paramedics on scene checking all vitals, signs from around 3 ish and recording all that later.
Anyway, the crown's case is that JG perverted, not murdered herself and BB did this sometime before 12.46

We still have that weird evidence to figure out . From a previous post:

"10.45 JG arrives at work. Sutton Trains not running, trees down. Ms Bernstein said Gray had come into work and told her her partner was down in Cornwall, looking after his ill father, and that Ellie was being looked after by her godfather. Why use this – as an excuse for being late? Makes no sense, why is she lying ? She didn't need to lie for being late as Station Train station was closed. Makes no sense. What is she covering?" Presume she left home say 9.30 that morning?

Ty for that.. sleep well. I'm up for another hot chocolate.. night night ttyl .

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[flourish]

I love hot chocolate. I've been known to throw a tantrum because I didn't get my morning hot chocolate. I'm shamefully immature sometimes.

Of course, my immaturity level makes me look like... Ghandi and Mother Theresa combined compared to BB.

 

[flourish]

I don't think I was very eloquent before, but I appreciate the responses. I guess it's just weird to me that he maybe didn't shake her when she was tiny but then did do all the later abuse. I absolutely think he's a horrid abuser who caused Ellie's death in a violent manner which was par for the course for him; he's a physical, emotional, and mental abuser.

I wonder if he really did shake her before.

What a control nut. All that work to get the children back wasn't for love but for ego stroking and control freaking trips. He doesn't like, let alone love, JG. Thinks babies are effing boring. Until one's under his control and supposed to be his little mini me but had the audacity to be their own human who would find a way to control something even if it was just her bodily functions.

Sigh. What a supreme ahole.

 

[Supernovae]

Oh my . What is that?

Does it mean grass to social services? I haven't read you rlink yet , but could it be part of this: March 2013 her wanting to stay in hosp and threatening to call social workers and she will lose Ellie?

"Butler begged her to take his phone calls.
Butler told her that if she stayed in hospital he would call a social worker and she would lose Ellie"

Even if it's just that why would SS take Ellie in March, what was he going to claim that SHE was doing wrong. And she implies that currently there is "no reason" as if previously there WAS a reason.
Flummoxed. Anybody else got a hunch?

He's threatening to report her "neglect" in being in hospital and unavailable to care for the children. It doesn't have to be reasonable, it's about control. He's trying to twist things around so it's all about her failings.

 

[cottonweaver]

He's threatening to report her "neglect" in being in hospital and unavailable to care for the children. It doesn't have to be reasonable, it's about control. He's trying to twist things around so it's all about her failings.

Yes, I do think that that is probably all this actually is SuperN, but just just for for the sake of "working all the angles"......

We'll probably never know if JG also laid a hand on her dau at some point in the 11 months. Can see that she actually might now,TBH , not a serious injury but maybe an unnecessary smacking etc to "show willing " to him.
From what we have heard to date, IMO he is the kind of bloke that likes to spread the blame and implicate others and we do have that text from him, thus:

‘I want u to start being alot tougher... Shes being an abs c***... I want to knw y she pissed herself in front of dad and sat there sulking the whole f***ing time,’ Butler said in one message.
Gray replied: ‘I think is terrible so I am going to get tough. U need to be more serious with her too.’

undated, maybe Jan- March?

Even if you just take that text standalone - their definition of "tougher" and " more serious" is very different to ours. By tough, we'd mean a serious talking to and consistent approach. In their home- for him "tough" can include beatings? Broken bones?

His previous euphemisim for violently beating JG is being "bad".
The cops obv had no evidence, the main witness is dead.... but am sure it would have crossed the cops' minds too.

 

[cottonweaver]

PS The link with texts T found is good, as it has sequencing and a few extra.

Check this!
He wants her out of hospital as it's interfering with him going to the pub!

16 march
Later that evening, Gray said:

“I am here because of ******ed abortion. U also brutally kicked me out too in wet and cold and etc. I was trying to get back and because I couldn’t U R pulling plug. That’s fine. Pulling plug because I am ill and couldn’t get back in time to go out drinking!”

PPS Throughout the texts generally. there are a couple of refs to his friends - so clearly he does have some ( sense of shame/image?) and he does like a drink ( is alc a factor again?) , no refs to her mates.

WS going slow, no quote boxes, link in T's post

 

[Tortoise]

Starting from bottom I think your aftershave to mask alcohol point has potential. That's a better reason to spray it than just vanity. Had he been drinking day time. ( Indeed are a lot of those texts fuelled by drink - some of them are so garbled they look "drunk". Does alc facilitate his rage? Would love to know if he was tested as standard procedure. IDK how late on 28th he was arrested and whether it could have gone from his system if a breath test is indeed standard on arrest at the station. Presume it is?

On your other big point.
It is possible , it was pre -med.
Are you thinking :
JG would not have known he was planning to do this and was at work, when he told her to come home at 1.46 she wasn't aware he had killed her.
JG would never tell so he didn't need to worry about her anyway.
Ellie was the prime witness to circa 11 months of abuse. If she was gone she couldn't reveal any of that abuse ( not incl the fatal injury of course) . He was worried she may reveal this due to an upcoming meet with gparents plus perhaps increasing pressure from social services who are persistently trying to set up a meet ( perhaps after convos with the school.)
So he hit her once then decided to finish it - you mean? Or before the first strike he decided to shut her down basically.
It is possible - Ellie may have said sthg about wanting to tell Gramps, or crying that she wanted to go back run away to Grandma etc etc and that sparked the fatal attack. I think that Ellie would have said that at some stage - it's just natural and to her those gps were her parents really.
BUT
Why didn't he cleanse the flat before the 28th though if it was totally premed? ( as opposed to rush around binning stuff the same afternoon)
Again apols for being graphic but would it not have been better to stage/claim a fall downstairs or even do that to Ellie. That would be better than a staged overturned chair.

Or, OTOH , it IS premed , (but not premed in layman's terms). ie. he can decide up to say, a few minutes before he strikes, before he carries out the act to shut her up once & for all. I do think it is very possible. Imagine a scenario where Ellie says, grandpa always told me that I should tell the truth etc etc and that decided it for BB.??

As you can see i haven't fully thought your scenario through yet but I do believe people in rage can be fully aware, fully in control, it's not all "red mist". I think even that topic is interesting in itself, in general and in relation to him as I have always thought he can exhibit self- control, as you will have read.

I haven't fully thought it through either - it's only a what if? exercise for me really, but

BIB - what if he didn't know there was anything incriminating in the flat? And what if that was JG's doing - clearing out letters she had hidden around her bedroom but he didn't know she'd kept? They didn't share the bedroom according to him. I'm trying to work out what there was to fill up 5 bags of rubbish, even assuming they were just small carrier bags.

Perhaps empty beer bottles and other general food packets and mess etc that he didn't particularly care about but she knew would give a bad impression to ambulance staff - make them look like dirty uncaring neglectful parents and the living conditions unsafe / unsuitable for children.

I also have to wonder if a weapon was used on Ellie whether he went out to dispose of it a bit further afield than their communal bins while JG was in the taxi asking him where he'd gone.

I know he knew about her diary because he'd found it a week earlier but since he knew he was in control of when the ambulance would be called and he had ordered JG to come home, maybe he thought there was time to deal with that and maybe she'd taken to carrying it around with her in her handbag after he found it, or had told him she had got rid of it to keep him quiet.

U/L - If it was premed I think he had to ensure he crushed Ellie's head, any other part of her body injured in a 'fall' would not kill her, and a push down the stairs is uncertain to achieve a specific injury.

Anyway, it's not really important in terms of what he has been charged with, it's only really a matter of interest to me in trying to work him out. I think, in terms of the other recent injuries Ellie had sustained (trauma to her skull and broken shoulder), that was a first failed attempt, possibly involving the stairs. The puppy a gift to stop her telling. This time I think he wasn't taking any risks - it had to be fatal. He could not allow her to receive medical treatment and survive it.

 

[Tortoise]

You would think wouldn't you that there would be a way of determining time of death like body temperature.

For the life of me I cannot work out why JG did not call an ambulance when she got home.

 

[Tortoise]

"U will grass"

He's unlikely to be referring to grassing himself. Her medical emergency is not neglect - he's the stay at home parent so that isn't grounds for informing on her. I'm sure it has to be something she's done. There's no power in a threat that doesn't really exist.

 

[cottonweaver]

I haven't fully thought it through either - it's only a what if? exercise for me really, but

BIB - what if he didn't know there was anything incriminating in the flat? And what if that was JG's doing - clearing out letters she had hidden around her bedroom but he didn't know she'd kept? They didn't share the bedroom according to him. I'm trying to work out what there was to fill up 5 bags of rubbish, even assuming they were just small carrier bags.

Perhaps empty beer bottles and other general food packets and mess etc that he didn't particularly care about but she knew would give a bad impression to ambulance staff - make them look like dirty uncaring neglectful parents and the living conditions unsafe / unsuitable for children.

I also have to wonder if a weapon was used on Ellie whether he went out to dispose of it a bit further afield than their communal bins while JG was in the taxi asking him where he'd gone.

I know he knew about her diary because he'd found it a week earlier but since he knew he was in control of when the ambulance would be called and he had ordered JG to come home, maybe he thought there was time to deal with that and maybe she'd taken to carrying it around with her in her handbag after he found it, or had told him she had got rid of it to keep him quiet.

U/L - If it was premed I think he had to ensure he crushed Ellie's head, any other part of her body injured in a 'fall' would not kill her, and a push down the stairs is uncertain to achieve a specific injury.

Anyway, it's not really important in terms of what he has been charged with, it's only really a matter of interest to me in trying to work him out. I think, in terms of the other recent injuries Ellie had sustained (trauma to her skull and broken shoulder), that was a first failed attempt, possibly involving the stairs. The puppy a gift to stop her telling. This time I think he wasn't taking any risks - it had to be fatal. He could not allow her to receive medical treatment and survive it.

The BIBs - nothing wrong with venturing into "what ifs". This is a UK trial so we only get to hear about 20% of the evidence, have to try and fill in the gaps as we can't just work the "facts". ( Even police will have extra hunches that they have to set aside anyway. )

5 bags - yes a lot of mess indicating neglect. Empty cans.
Incrim letters etc - yes, when he found the diary he prob immed told her to get rid of all this kind of stuff " you nutter" blah blah - ticking time bomb. If it hadn't been fro neighbours this stuff may never have been found. ( Incidentally would have liked to know when he wrote his letter that addressed her as Mrs. B and was in happier times, I Love you loads etc. ) Maybe he was clearing his phone already then, or he just did it routinely after one of his rages?
Blunt force trauma - a weapon. Could be as that blood spatter report was so sketchy as we have all been saying. Where is the impact spatter in the room? As you pointed out weeks ago , there seems to have been an attempt to clear blood due to the dilution of the pillow stain. Ellie also appears to have been moved around. ( BTW I thought they could tell if bleach etc had been recently used, not just by smell)


They have a lot to do in an hour and missed things like her letter atop a bedroom cupboard. Wash clothes. Change. Tidy up. Remove incriminating. Presume he started whilst she was en route.
Stair fall - agree on that and did think that but I was wondering would he combine the final blow after the fall. Again, that's him having to actually plan it quite a while before, whilst in premed he could have decided 10 mins before.
IMO It's not that controversial to suggest it wasn't a incident of pure "red mist' on his part aka he didn't mean to kill her.

I do think Ellie from 7 weeks or time of grandparents taking over up until Dec 2012 was a normally-brought up, well- adjusted little girl as she had those years of stability. That's why I don't think it OTT to expect that despite her willingness to lie to school /docs etc she may have blurted out that she would tell grandps. Grndps are also her refuge/place of safety/ she would love to see them too but maybe she is being denied.
Maybe the pup is also a weapon as in - we will take it away if you do x.y.z. Very, very upsetting for a young child.

PS Was interested in your refuge notion. Why do you think that? Is there a missing time gap for you?

 

[cottonweaver]

You would think wouldn't you that there would be a way of determining time of death like body temperature.

For the life of me I cannot work out why JG did not call an ambulance when she got home.

Yes. remember the OP case. Doc at scene testified to "corneal clouding" as a sign she had been dead for circa 15 mins.

She didn't call ambulance as together they had to talk, run through the paramedic call - who speaks etc - they had a lot of clearing to do, then she gets changes, puts washer on.
Same reason she didn't call ambulance over 1 hr sat there in the cab.
cab texts: BB "I fancy Chill tonight " JG replies " Thanks, that's great " or wtte. He must have said orally, Ok I am going to send you some cover-up texts now. She fell right into line. No protest, no confusion. Cold. From the get-go it was cover-up.Sh'es done its o many times with him, there is no confusion or quandary. And def no ambulance!

 

[cottonweaver]

the full text sequence, just for reference as we haven't heard it before, from T's link above

On March 19, Gray said Butler couldn't "control" himself.

She said: “I dont need to do peace pact as u am the vulnerable one and the weaker sex (very vulnerable right now). U R the one who cant control.
” U R the one who sits there quietly and winds yourself up until bang. I am sorry I let U down but U have done loads more to hurt me by far.”

Later that night, she said: “This is the problem, I am getting med treatment and U don’t like it under your dictatorship (even tho U don’t ****ing want me, like me or fancy me just want to have me there to hurt me literally)
“U want me to return there and be around U and leave hosp without getting DEAD BABY REMAINS OUT OF MY WOMB PROPERLY…so if I do not agree now U will grass FOR NO REASON.”

in 2004 psych he said

"He believed that violence could help him improve his mood when he was upset. Historically he would become angry and punch people....."Mr Butler stated he believed he would continue to hit out at other men when he felt he has been threatened. This is more likely when his mood is low which happens about two or three times a week."

If we can believe anything this man says, has JG become the punchbag he needs to have around? As keep saying, what is in it for him? very weird.

 

[Tortoise]

PS Was interested in your refuge notion. Why do you think that? Is there a missing time gap for you?

She said that she wasn't coming home and would go to a church or a refuge. And then there was a whole 3 months (Apr to Jun) with no phone communications. Appreciate that could be 'cos she used a different phone, but then why go back to using the old phone again after.

 

[Gigi-G]

Okay. Can some clarify what's a peace pact? I'm guessing it's to do with both coming together and agreeing to accept 'peace' then between them. As in they both agree maybe to 'talk' thru any issues that's bothering them. Without any hostility.
Seems odd. Seems a coping mechanism you'd pick up from an advisor. Or counsellor. Maybe given his violent past part of his 'corrective' theory whilst he was in proso or 'community repatriation' on his release terms.
It's not a 'common' trait.
Or its something they've devised between the two of them. Maybe after he's had an aggressive bout at JG.


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[Tortoise]

Ed Brown QC will, I am sure, be looking for his weaknesses so he can push a few buttons - the parts in his evidence where he over-talks, skirts around the questions and gets defensive.

One of those has been his relationship with JG being included in the trial - giving him an "unfair trial" - the texts show the hidden side of the man who never knew at the time he wrote them would be standing trial for murder, because his victim is dead and can't speak for her experience of life in that home. Another will be the grandparents, who they made accusations against (I've heard, haven't seen evidence of this) and ended up not on speaking terms with - a deliberate ploy there to keep them away from Ellie IMO. That is classic behaviour of abusers, isolate the victim. Another will be how he was so pressured still by the 6 years of hell he had been through, that it continued to be a problem for him, made him volatile and violent to JG, after they were reunited as a family, when he had been vindicated. Perhaps another will be what he thinks could possibly have been hidden from them by the pathologists, that would cause Ellie to suffer a crushed skull and brain. Surely he's not going to say it was her Venthouse delivery.

 

[Tortoise]

How can she not testify. Not testifying will just make her look like she's resigned to the fact that's she's guilty anyways.
I don't know how it's played out. But I know if you have a witness that's due to give evidence but unwilling for whatever to take the stand. It can be done by live link. I'm not sure if a document like a statement can be used if delivered by her QC .
Or in Very extreme cases. Shown by Video, recorded in private with her QC in attendance. But I do think she'll take the stand.. she's got a lot to say
. 

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I think she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. Jury won't like it if she doesn't. I think she has to though, but she has such a track record as a liar.

 

[Gigi-G]

Also. Something else bothers me.
Right she's in taxi home. Witness from work have said she looked/sounded worried. As did the taxi driver.
She's rushing home at a £50.00 fare mind you. (That's a hell of a fare to pay when it's probably £10 via bus or train)
Yet she hands over £50.00.

Now... As taxi driver stated. She looked/sounded uptight. Stating her child was unwell. Hence the taxi ride home.

While BB is waiting on JG coming home. He goes on a rampage thru the home. Removing letters notes anything that coukd incriminate him to DV. Tearing up her scribbled notes. Her diary. Stuffing them into bags. Grabbing the puppy putting the lead on picks up the bags. Leaves sibling alone in the house with Ellie dead or dying from inflicted seriously traumatic injuries while in BB'S care. And sets off to give the dog a quick walk in order to dispose of incriminating paperwork into dumpsters located just a bit away from home.
Which he is seen on the way back by neighbours. Who thought he was a bit odd. As he'd waved at them n smiled. He'd never done that before he's just ignored them.


During the ride home. Driver says there seemed to be a fone call where she sounded agitated/worried/upset.
(As any mother would be)
And yet mid conversation BB states they'll have Chilli for dinner tonight. Umm

Your child's 'very poorly and yr talking about food'

I couldn't get my head around that.

Now fast forward. She's got home. Says she can hear Ellie playing on her arrival. (So Ellie wasn't THAT ill then if she was playing)
And yet on going upstairs (seconds/minutes after) she finds Ellie motionless unresponsive on the floor.

Time lapse..... presumably into by now a panic.
Clothes changed and into the washing machine. Doing all this and checking their versions of events. Almost couple hours after.
Stage set.

3
2
1

Action.......

Calls 999.

Why was JGs recent fresh blood drops/spread found in Ellie's room, throughout the living room, hallway, bathroom... as Ellie's was found in mostly similar places.....
Why was JG bleeding at all?

Doesn't square up for me. To many factors. Where I can't tie together to make a collective time frame.


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[Gigi-G]

Ed Brown QC will, I am sure, be looking for his weaknesses so he can push a few buttons - the parts in his evidence where he over-talks, skirts around the questions and gets defensive.

One of those has been his relationship with JG being included in the trial - giving him an "unfair trial" - the texts show the hidden side of the man who never knew at the time he wrote them would be standing trial for murder, because his victim is dead and can't speak for her experience of life in that home. Another will be the grandparents, who they made accusations against (I've heard, haven't seen evidence of this) and ended up not on speaking terms with - a deliberate ploy there to keep them away from Ellie IMO. That is classic behaviour of abusers, isolate the victim. Another will be how he was so pressured still by the 6 years of hell he had been through, that it continued to be a problem for him, made him volatile and violent to JG, after they were reunited as a family, when he had been vindicated. Perhaps another will be what he thinks could possibly have been hidden from them by the pathologists, that would cause Ellie to suffer a crushed skull and brain. Surely he's not going to say it was her Venthouse delivery.

For me I fully expect BB to stand his ground on the old injuries cast back to 2007 were results of a bodged Ventouse delivery.
Ventouse is a terminology for a device used during labour. For a mom that's been in labour for a long while. And getting distressed. Or baby's getting distressed. Where a Caesarian can't be given. As baby is part way down birth canal. It's a suction tool. It makes a seal over the baby's head. Allowing midwife/obstetrician to gingerly ease baby out. (Not it's nothing like a Dyson!)

Another implement to use are forceps. But whereas the Ventouse is quite small. Forceps are like big vented spoons. That clamp over baby's face/ ears.
Forceps have had a bad press of late.
1 baby in America recently was decapitated thru using them.

But yes BB will use his positive result that his case that Ventouse system helped to damaging his baby girl at birth for that.

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[Gigi-G]

Got doc coming out. Not had good days yest n this morning. The Grumpy one called doc out. I. Tired so watch doc will call once I'm asleep. Sounds about right.. I'll put my mind in post ponder mode . Ttyl.x

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[cottonweaver]

Got doc coming out. Not had good days yest n this morning. The Grumpy one called doc out. I. Tired so watch doc will call once I'm asleep. Sounds about right.. I'll put my mind in post ponder mode . Ttyl.x

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Hope the doctor can do something to make you feel better soon Gigi x