UK UK- Eve Stratford, 21, Bunny @ Playboy Club, posed for mag. cover, later her mutilated & grotesquely staged body found @ home, London 18/03/75 *DNA*

[jojojaja]

I really wonder about the flowers. Were they from a known person, or a stranger? Did the others receive gifts - flowers, chocolates, etc. prior to the attacks on them? Is it just pure chance, or is it something her killer did? It just sounds like something out of fiction. The attack seems blitz like, but the posing is something that took time. I think it's easy to draw a line to Sutcliffe, despite the lack of evidence, because he did both. Posing is unusual, much much rarer than tv and film would have us believe. Most posing that happens is fake - say, a partner trying to make a domestic killing look like a stranger-attack. True posing is rare. It's something that gratifies the killer somehow. It's a signature behaviour that the killer needs but is 'unnecessary' otherwise. It takes time that a killer who doesn't need it would use to clean the scene or make their escape. It's a compulsory part of the fantasy made real. But Sutcliffe never stalked his victims beforehand that I know of - no phone calls, no flowers. He just took the first target who presented themselves to him when he was hunting. Working girls, yes, but also teens and middle aged women walking home. Anyone female was a potential target. And their identity didn't matter to him.

I think whoever this person is, they have a body count behind them bigger than we know. The seventies was a paradise for serials. Pre-DNA, post-highway system. High mobility, anonymity. A lot of successful serials were mobile - truck drivers, transients, people who travelled for work. But even those who stayed put could be successful at it in that era. Drive to the next big town or city, kill, be home in time for tea.

MOO

You obviously know a lot about these cases. I'm enjoying learning what you have to offer about them, and I hope that new technologies are going to bring these victims justice, or at least, answers.

The flowers were bought by her, in the early news stories they didn't realise that and assumed the killer brought them, maybe to pose as someone delivering them to get in. I know a witness saw her on the way home with them plus they traced where they came from. They were dried leaves / grasses rather than flowers. I do think it's possible that when posing his scene that he deliberately left them next to her.

Wikipedia stated that her face and I think neck was mutilated, I haven't found a news article stating that yet, may have missed it in my avoidance of the salacious news stories about her, they cite a book as the source. I will be keeping at eye out as the killer also mutilated Lynne Weedon. I think she was also posed in as much as he could do with limited resources.

Sutcliffe was definitely less choosy. Even attacking men. The more you let loose of the pull of Eve Stratford and look at Lynne Weedon and then the similarities between them and Elizabeth Parravicini and Sally Weeton then the more you notice what they have in common. Maybe Eve was the odd one out, partly because he had her in private.
Btw you'd be surprised how cooperative you might be if someone has a big long knife so that's why I take it with a pinch of salt that she knew the killer, I don't disbelieve that, I just don't put all my faith in it. I noticed from all my reading, I think Eve is the only one that there's no evidence that she was followed. It doesn't mean she wasn't, after all she was killed not long after returning home, just that nobody saw anyone and it's not an obvious part of her death.

If in this country we looked more at familial DNA to trace through relatives, a lot more cold cases would be solved I'm sure, so frustrating. The killer of Eve and Lynne may not even still be alive. I seriously don't think this person would stop at two. I don't understand why there aren't more people coming forward who got away. In one of the 1970s scanned press pieces I saw the police had the clever idea to appeal to women to come forward confidentially and share their stories of sexual assault, rape, attempted murder, attacks etc and at least 200 women came forward. Where is that info?! Every killer I can think of had survivors stories. Many sexual predators also started with theft, being peeping tom, taking underwear off washing lines, burglary, going through people's underwear draw etc, progression. It would be a rare person who become fully formed from the get go.

I've long taken an interest but I'm reading a lot right now so more details are fresh in my head, it'll fade.

 

[jojojaja]

I really wonder about the flowers. Were they from a known person, or a stranger? Did the others receive gifts - flowers, chocolates, etc. prior to the attacks on them? Is it just pure chance, or is it something her killer did? It just sounds like something out of fiction. The attack seems blitz like, but the posing is something that took time. I think it's easy to draw a line to Sutcliffe, despite the lack of evidence, because he did both. Posing is unusual, much much rarer than tv and film would have us believe. Most posing that happens is fake - say, a partner trying to make a domestic killing look like a stranger-attack. True posing is rare. It's something that gratifies the killer somehow. It's a signature behaviour that the killer needs but is 'unnecessary' otherwise. It takes time that a killer who doesn't need it would use to clean the scene or make their escape. It's a compulsory part of the fantasy made real. But Sutcliffe never stalked his victims beforehand that I know of - no phone calls, no flowers. He just took the first target who presented themselves to him when he was hunting. Working girls, yes, but also teens and middle aged women walking home. Anyone female was a potential target. And their identity didn't matter to him.

I think whoever this person is, they have a body count behind them bigger than we know. The seventies was a paradise for serials. Pre-DNA, post-highway system. High mobility, anonymity. A lot of successful serials were mobile - truck drivers, transients, people who travelled for work. But even those who stayed put could be successful at it in that era. Drive to the next big town or city, kill, be home in time for tea.

MOO

You obviously know a lot about these cases. I'm enjoying learning what you have to offer about them, and I hope that new technologies are going to bring these victims justice, or at least, answers.

The flowers were bought by her, in the early news stories they didn't realise that and assumed the killer brought them, maybe to pose as someone delivering them to get in. I know a witness saw her on the way home with them plus they traced where they came from. They were dried leaves / grasses rather than flowers. I do think it's possible that when posing his scene that he deliberately left them next to her.

Wikipedia stated that her face and I think neck was mutilated, I haven't found a news article stating that yet, may have missed it in my avoidance of the salacious news stories about her, they cite a book as the source. I will be keeping at eye out as the killer also mutilated Lynne Weedon. I think she was also posed in as much as he could do with limited resources.

Sutcliffe was definitely less choosy. Even attacking men. The more you let loose of the pull of Eve Stratford and look at Lynne Weedon and then the similarities between them and Elizabeth Parravicini and Sally Weeton then the more you notice what they have in common. Maybe Eve was the odd one out, partly because he had her in private.
Btw you'd be surprised how cooperative you might be if someone has a big long knife so that's why I take it with a pinch of salt that she knew the killer, I don't disbelieve that, I just don't put all my faith in it. I noticed from all my reading, I think Eve is the only one that there's no evidence that she was followed. It doesn't mean she wasn't, after all she was killed not long after returning home, just that nobody saw anyone and it's not an obvious part of her death.

If in this country we looked more at familial DNA to trace through relatives, a lot more cold cases would be solved I'm sure, so frustrating. The killer of Eve and Lynne may not even still be alive. I seriously don't think this person would stop at two. I don't understand why there aren't more people coming forward who got away. In one of the 1970s scanned press pieces I saw the police had the clever idea to appeal to women to come forward confidentially and share their stories of sexual assault, rape, attempted murder, attacks etc and at least 200 women came forward. Where is that info?! Every killer I can think of had survivors stories. Many sexual predators also started with theft, being peeping tom, taking underwear off washing lines, burglary, going through people's underwear draw etc, progression. It would be a rare person who become fully formed from the get go.

I've long taken an interest but I'm reading a lot right now so more details are fresh in my head, it'll fade.

 

[dotr]

Being a secretor or nonsecretor has no impact on modern DNA techniques, only the bloodtyping techniques of the past that are no longer used. If they have a sample from the crime scene, and a sample of Sutcliffe's DNA, then they can compare them.

Coincidentally, the "Golden State Killer'' was also a non-secretor..rbbm

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/family-friends/how-dna-sample-sent-to-genealogy-website-led-police-to-golden-state-killer-suspect/news-story/5b967c892e382e47e072035951ae4723

''Forensic investigators ascertained he had Type A blood and his sperm was “non-secretor”, meaning his bodily fluids (other than blood) didn’t contain blood type antigens.

But it was only in the 1980s to 1990s that forensic samples taken from dozens of crime scenes allowed Californian police to link all the assaults to one perpetrator.''

FWIW..

How do I know if I’m a secretor or a non-secretor? - The Tech Interactive

www.thetech.org

By Olivia de Goede on May 29, 2019 rbbm
''If you’re a secretor, it means that your ABO blood type (A, B, AB, or O) is not only in your blood, but also in other body fluids like saliva and mucus. Whether you’re a secretor or not is caused by one particular gene, which you can figure out with DNA testing kits.
We actually don’t know much about how our “secretor status” affects everyday life. The most I can say is that it has been linked to some disease risks, which I’ll get into below!''

''Around 80% of people are secretors.1 For the other 20% who are non-secretors, their FUT2 gene has been interrupted by a mutation, so they can’t make the free-floating form of antigens.

So if you’re a secretor, there are cells in your mouth that release your blood-type antigens into saliva. And there are cells in your tear ducts that release your antigens into tears. And so on, for all of the fluids that your body makes''
Non-secretors seem to be less likely to get some stomach illnesses, like stomach flu and ulcers.2-4 The case is strongest for stomach flu: in those studies, all of the people who got sick were secretors, and none of them were non-secretors!

On the flip side, non-secretors seem to be more likely to get yeast infections.5 They also seem to be more likely to get pneumonia and meningitis.6,7

Being a non-secretor has also been connected to some autoimmune diseases. The link between being a non-secretor and having inflammatory bowel disease has the most support. But, there are also links between being a non-secretor and having psoriasis or type 1 diabetes.8-11''

 

[fred&edna]

I personally think attention should be paid more closely to her immediate social circle as well as her then boyfriends.

There wasn't a break in was there? If not this could imply she had knowledge of the person who murdered her. Get a feeling it was grudge orientated of a jilting. The ferocious nature of the attack could reflect this.

Well, since we know the killer of Eve AND Lynne was the same, I believe finding any sort of link between these two is key. Not that Lynne and Eve traveled in the same circle or locations but maybe something related to music/clubs... that was my thinking.

 

[jojojaja]

Coincidentally, the "Golden State Killer'' was also a non-secretor..rbbm

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/relationships/family-friends/how-dna-sample-sent-to-genealogy-website-led-police-to-golden-state-killer-suspect/news-story/5b967c892e382e47e072035951ae4723

''Forensic investigators ascertained he had Type A blood and his sperm was “non-secretor”, meaning his bodily fluids (other than blood) didn’t contain blood type antigens.

But it was only in the 1980s to 1990s that forensic samples taken from dozens of crime scenes allowed Californian police to link all the assaults to one perpetrator.''

FWIW..

How do I know if I’m a secretor or a non-secretor? - The Tech Interactive

www.thetech.org

By Olivia de Goede on May 29, 2019 rbbm
''If you’re a secretor, it means that your ABO blood type (A, B, AB, or O) is not only in your blood, but also in other body fluids like saliva and mucus. Whether you’re a secretor or not is caused by one particular gene, which you can figure out with DNA testing kits.
We actually don’t know much about how our “secretor status” affects everyday life. The most I can say is that it has been linked to some disease risks, which I’ll get into below!''

''Around 80% of people are secretors.1 For the other 20% who are non-secretors, their FUT2 gene has been interrupted by a mutation, so they can’t make the free-floating form of antigens.

So if you’re a secretor, there are cells in your mouth that release your blood-type antigens into saliva. And there are cells in your tear ducts that release your antigens into tears. And so on, for all of the fluids that your body makes''
Non-secretors seem to be less likely to get some stomach illnesses, like stomach flu and ulcers.2-4 The case is strongest for stomach flu: in those studies, all of the people who got sick were secretors, and none of them were non-secretors!

On the flip side, non-secretors seem to be more likely to get yeast infections.5 They also seem to be more likely to get pneumonia and meningitis.6,7

Being a non-secretor has also been connected to some autoimmune diseases. The link between being a non-secretor and having inflammatory bowel disease has the most support. But, there are also links between being a non-secretor and having psoriasis or type 1 diabetes.8-11''

He was a scary one to have on the loose, I am sure he thought he was so clever not getting caught, until he was.

 

[jojojaja]

Well, since we know the killer of Eve AND Lynne was the same, I believe finding any sort of link between these two is key. Not that Lynne and Eve traveled in the same circle or locations but maybe something related to music/clubs... that was my thinking.

Lynne hardly went out and only just finished school, I read that her parents were worried about her never going out at one point.
I have rarely read of serial killers only killing people who knew each other. I believe he killed and/or attacked others, if you look at an ordnance survey map the distance between Lynne and Elizabeth's murders is ridiculously close and the similarity in how they were attacked. The police think all of them were sexually motivated, that's their link. Also they were all blonde or fair haired and young, attractive that's a link and a type. Oddly they were all wearing jeans (Eve was wearing a denim trouser suit while out too). I really don't think Eve and Lynne knew each other imo. Or any of the other ladies. Many were returning from or worked in central London or the West End, Lynne had no link there either.

 

[dotr]

Lynne hardly went out and only just finished school, I read that her parents were worried about her never going out at one point.
I have rarely read of serial killers only killing people who knew each other. I believe he killed and/or attacked others, if you look at an ordnance survey map the distance between Lynne and Elizabeth's murders is ridiculously close and the similarity in how they were attacked. The police think all of them were sexually motivated, that's their link. Also they were all blonde or fair haired and young, attractive that's a link and a type. Oddly they were all wearing jeans (Eve was wearing a denim trouser suit while out too). I really don't think Eve and Lynne knew each other imo. Or any of the other ladies. Many were returning from or worked in central London or the West End, Lynne had no link there either.

Been trying to find an appropriate news or police link to start a thread for Elizabeth too, maybe Italian papers might have more info?

 

[iamshadow21]

Lynne hardly went out and only just finished school, I read that her parents were worried about her never going out at one point.
I have rarely read of serial killers only killing people who knew each other. I believe he killed and/or attacked others, if you look at an ordnance survey map the distance between Lynne and Elizabeth's murders is ridiculously close and the similarity in how they were attacked. The police think all of them were sexually motivated, that's their link. Also they were all blonde or fair haired and young, attractive that's a link and a type. Oddly they were all wearing jeans (Eve was wearing a denim trouser suit while out too). I really don't think Eve and Lynne knew each other imo. Or any of the other ladies. Many were returning from or worked in central London or the West End, Lynne had no link there either.

I think, like Sutcliffe's blitz attacks on people just passing by, we're dealing with someone who didn't know his victims, who lurked, waited, watched for someone who looked like his preferred victim to walk on by. I think he prowled a lot. Walked the streets. Kept his eyes open for women walking alone. May have had a fetish for women in jeans. Women with light hair. Makes it hard - if he was truly opportunistic, there won't be a social or community connection between the victims, or if there is, it's going to be coincidental.

Hard... but solvable with DNA.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

Lynne hardly went out and only just finished school, I read that her parents were worried about her never going out at one point.
I have rarely read of serial killers only killing people who knew each other. I believe he killed and/or attacked others, if you look at an ordnance survey map the distance between Lynne and Elizabeth's murders is ridiculously close and the similarity in how they were attacked. The police think all of them were sexually motivated, that's their link. Also they were all blonde or fair haired and young, attractive that's a link and a type. Oddly they were all wearing jeans (Eve was wearing a denim trouser suit while out too). I really don't think Eve and Lynne knew each other imo. Or any of the other ladies. Many were returning from or worked in central London or the West End, Lynne had no link there either.

I don't think they knew each other either. I'm not explaining my thinking very well. The only thing we know for certain that even slightly connects the cases (aside from "type" of victim... blonde, etc) is possibly music... one was walking home from a music venue... the other was involved with a band/music. That was my only point... and while a "loose" connection, it is a connection, nonetheless.

 

[Pinkizzy]

Sally Shepherd was clubbed and sexually assaulted in 1979

Woman raped and murdered before Indian takeaway dumped over body

Sally Shepherd was walking through Peckham when she was dragged into a builder's yard

www.mylondon.news

 

[jojojaja]

Sally Shepherd was clubbed and sexually assaulted in 1979

Woman raped and murdered before Indian takeaway dumped over body

Sally Shepherd was walking through Peckham when she was dragged into a builder's yard

www.mylondon.news

Yes, I think we have discussed her over a few threads as a possible

I don't think they knew each other either. I'm not explaining my thinking very well. The only thing we know for certain that even slightly connects the cases (aside from "type" of victim... blonde, etc) is possibly music... one was walking home from a music venue... the other was involved with a band/music. That was my only point... and while a "loose" connection, it is a connection, nonetheless.

It can be difficult trying to be clear and concise on here while trying to also consider the rules...

 

[jojojaja]

I think, like Sutcliffe's blitz attacks on people just passing by, we're dealing with someone who didn't know his victims, who lurked, waited, watched for someone who looked like his preferred victim to walk on by. I think he prowled a lot. Walked the streets. Kept his eyes open for women walking alone. May have had a fetish for women in jeans. Women with light hair. Makes it hard - if he was truly opportunistic, there won't be a social or community connection between the victims, or if there is, it's going to be coincidental.

Hard... but solvable with DNA.

MOO

I agree and he may have followed them on public transport.

I used to think people stopped killing or had breaks due to incarceration, moving away or death, I think it was the Golden State Killer and other things I've heard or read since he was caught which made me realise that people sometimes stop because they get in a relationship, have kids or a steady job. Hard to imagine someone like this with a wife, but other sickening men did it.

 

[jojojaja]

Been trying to find an appropriate news or police link to start a thread for Elizabeth too, maybe Italian papers might have more info?

Exactly, it's hard to find things about her and the name I don't think helps? Sometimes it's spelt differently. I'm fairly new too so rather you than me start one ; ) I'm scared of all these rules!

 

[Luxee]

I posted two sections covering the 2 definite and 3 possible on either side of London, it just missed Sally Shepherd in Peckham.

I added the two missing ladies to this one as it covers the area of London needed, added the years they died too.

Police hunting bunny girl killer make fresh appeal 40 years later

Police investigating the historic murders of Eve Stratford (pictured), a 22-year-old who worked at London's Playboy club and schoolgirl Lynne Weedon, 16, have launched a fresh appeal for information.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If it’s possible to lay a tube map on this map too, it may show a pattern of which tube line(s) run closest to these locations.
On one of the upthread maps you have posted it looked like the district line was a common factor?

 

[Pinkizzy]

The killer may killed in other areas of the country, like Tobin.

 

[dotr]

Elizabeth P, 27, is referenced in this book, she is an Englishwoman who lived in Italy with her Italian husband and two children and was on holiday in the UK when attacked.

Yorkshire Ripper - The Secret Murders

In 1981, Peter Sutcliffe, the 'Yorkshire Ripper', was convicted of thirteen murders and seven attempted murders. All his proven victims were women: most were prostitutes.Astonishingly, however, this is not the whole truth. There is a still-secret story of how Sutcliffe's terrible reign of terror...

books.google.ca

 

[jojojaja]

The killer may killed in other areas of the country, like Tobin.

Except we have no proof of that, since the only two known victims are in London, there's a few possibles as mentioned within London, but many further North are more probably Sutcliffe. It's one thing to link people when you already know the killer, but very difficult when you have no idea. Tobin's cases seemed unconnected before more was understood about how ruddy horrible he was.
I have tried looking at Wikipedia's unsolved murders of the 1970s to see if any 'feel' like this guy's work. It doesn't help that some have little written about them anywhere.

 

[jojojaja]

C

Elizabeth P, 27, is referenced in this book, she is an Englishwoman who lived in Italy with her Italian husband and two children and was on holiday in the UK when attacked.

Yorkshire Ripper - The Secret Murders

In 1981, Peter Sutcliffe, the 'Yorkshire Ripper', was convicted of thirteen murders and seven attempted murders. All his proven victims were women: most were prostitutes.Astonishingly, however, this is not the whole truth. There is a still-secret story of how Sutcliffe's terrible reign of terror...

books.google.ca

Yep, referenced back in post #14 may have more links on other threads, like the newshopper one that has a short piece on her and the drama group obituary, from The Questers, they refer to her as Liz and it was the first time I found out her maiden name was Graham, I think her theatrical friends were important to her.

 

[jojojaja]

If it’s possible to lay a tube map on this map too, it may show a pattern of which tube line(s) run closest to these locations.
On one of the upthread maps you have posted it looked like the district line was a common factor?

Not sure how to do that unless I just manually find the location on the map to mark used stations.
Lynne caught a bus, no trains involved. My knowledge of trains going west from central London as Elizabeth caught, and I found and posted something which said she travelled so far home with one of her theatrical friends before changing to get a train going in the direction of Hounslow, therefore she must have started on a district line and changed to the piccadilly line. However one of the connections between Lynne and Elizabeth is how close they were to each other geographically, suggesting that the killer found them closer to home perhaps.

Eve would have caught the central line to get off at Leytonstone.

I have a feeling that Sally caught the bus, I read she left work around 7ish in central London and then went to visit friends in Essex and travelling home very late because of that. Will have to check. I was reading something yesterday where the police suspected the perp may have been on the bus with her and that she would never have usually walked down the road she was found on, a suggestion was made that she may have been taken down it against her will. Nothing was mentioned about whether she may have had a drink when visiting her friends, sometimes drink will make you more foolhardy to be walking down a road you'd usually avoid.
I can certainly recall in my teen years taking shortcuts I shouldn't have taken because I was tired and just wanted to get home (like Lynne) one time when crossing the very very large empty and dark grounds of a school and being very on edge about it, but the safer route was ridiculously far to go, a policeman suddenly popped out of a dark recessed doorway and frightened me half to death, I'm sure purposefully....phew I shrieked. Anyway thankfully nobody bad, but it can only take one time and one bad meeting.

 

[jojojaja]

Incidentally some people have mentioned how this person may have gotten around. I'm not convinced it was this hitchhiker though.

Man recalls unsolved killing

Police statements taken from a man stopped by a hitch-hiker 32 years ago, yards from where Hounslow teenager Lynne Weedon was murdered are being…

www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk