GUILTY UK - Helen Bailey, 51, Royston, 11 April 2016 #3

[LozDa]

Hello Wolfcub



If Helen had suffered something like an epileptic fit and it was a natural death, I can't see how he would have been in any trouble. Coincidences like that do happen, unfortunately.

I think Wolfclub was inferring that the Zopiclone may have caused another unexpected fit. So.... if IS had killed his first wife in the same way, it would not be possible for him to get away with it twice by a presumption of unexpected epileptic fit. It would be looked into more if Helen had died the same way as his wife.

I don't think (s)he was meaning that if they had both died from natural causes...

That's what I took away anyway! Might be wrong...!

 

[Cherwell]

I think Wolfclub was inferring that the Zopiclone may have caused another unexpected fit. So.... if IS had killed his first wife in the same way, it would not be possible for him to get away with it twice by a presumption of unexpected epileptic fit. It would be looked into more if Helen had died the same way as his wife.

I don't think (s)he was meaning that if they had both died from natural causes...

That's what I took away anyway! Might be wrong...!

Well, "natural causes" as far as it wasn't directly by his hands, iyswim.

It would have to be proved that she was not knowingly taking Zopiclone, and I'm not sure how easy that would be.
And we know that Helen had problems with high blood pressure, which could have been seen as a contributory factor.
So I don't think Helen suddenly dropping dead would have caused him to panic and go to all those lengths to cover it up.

 

[snoopydog]

I think Wolfclub was inferring that the Zopiclone may have caused another unexpected fit. So.... if IS had killed his first wife in the same way, it would not be possible for him to get away with it twice by a presumption of unexpected epileptic fit. It would be looked into more if Helen had died the same way as his wife.

I don't think (s)he was meaning that if they had both died from natural causes...

That's what I took away anyway! Might be wrong...!

I agree. I think the statistical probability of two partners dying of unexpected epileptic fits must be huge. Especially both are reasonably young ages. He'd have opened a can of worms and I think both deaths would be being looked at from the outset especially once the zopiclone had been traced.

I'd love to know if the police found the tablets or remaining tablets in the house anywhere and if they have done a drug test of his hair also....


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[Cherwell]

Wolfcub actually said "something major like an epileptic fit", so I was including the possibility of other sudden CODs such as heart attack or stroke.

 

[wolfcub]

Hello Wolfcub



If Helen had suffered something like an epileptic fit and it was a natural death, I can't see how he would have been in any trouble. Coincidences like that do happen, unfortunately.

...Except that it wouldn't be a natural death, and would not be considered just a coincidence, as this time round they would probably have been able to prove that it was caused by the drug he was giving her...(or withdrawal from, etc.) The fact that his previous wife died of an epileptic fit would mean that more thorough investigations would be carried out this time round and he would likely not get away with that twice...
I agree with the idea of other posters that he may well have intended for her to have some sort of accident (e.g. driving) whilst under influence of the drug or similar, which, given her dislike of driving and nervousness about it, would be more plausible than another wife dying of an epileptic fit...

 

[Alyce]

I agree. I think the statistical probability of two partners dying of unexpected epileptic fits must be huge. Especially both are reasonably young ages. He'd have opened a can of worms and I think both deaths would be being looked at from the outset especially once the zopiclone had been traced.

I'd love to know if the police found the tablets or remaining tablets in the house anywhere and if they have done a drug test of his hair also....


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wonder how many hair cuts he had between April and July

 

[Alyce]

I know that a person who does not ( or has not previously ) suffered from epilepsy can have an epileptic fit for the first time in their 40s or 50s - but from what I have read, I understand that in order for a death to be classed as SUDEP ( as in the case of ISs wife ) then the person has to have some previous history of epilepsy.

Nothing has been said about Helen having such a history, so an epileptic fit would have to have been her first time. Would they not be able to find this from the PM ? I dont know, am just asking the question.


Adding a :welcome: to Wolfcub

 

[wolfcub]

Thanks DollyDiamond,
Yes, those poor sons. It is bad enough that they lost their own mother, but now to have to sit through this court case, with, more likely than not, the dawning realization of their father's guilt in an unimaginably horrible murder, and then the unspeakable possibility that if he could be responsible for this, he might even be implicated in their mother's early death. To lose two parents, effectively, in such awful circumstances, I hope that they have strong people around them to offer them support.

 

[Pollyana]

Dumbass in tinfoil!! Had me laughing... so apt and useless!

 

[hayaletcatcher]

I'm not 100% caught up yet but having just read the post about the sons on the stand and the Monday missing vs Tuesday's note, it made me remember something I now can't find. Wasn't there some differing stories about what happened in the previous days, over the weekend? One story was they was all there and Helen was cooking Shepherds Pie on Sunday but one person wasn't there that Sunday and it was actually Saturday? I can't remember seeing if that had been cleared up? Or did i completely get the wrong end of the stick?
*going to catch up no so if this is now a moot point please ignore*

 

[Squamous]

Also, if that had happened I think he would go for that story as his murder defence rather than going to the trouble of creating Ant and Dec.

 

[snoopydog]

I know that a person who does not ( or has not previously ) suffered from epilepsy can have an epileptic fit for the first time in their 40s or 50s - but from what I have read, I understand that in order for a death to be classed as SUDEP ( as in the case of ISs wife ) then the person has to have some previous history of epilepsy.

Nothing has been said about Helen having such a history, so an epileptic fit would have to have been her first time. Would they not be able to find this from the PM ? I dont know, am just asking the question.


Adding a :welcome: to Wolfcub

I've just been googling SUDEP.... I hope the police go over this after the case. From what I looked at it's rare enough for someone with epilepsy to have this never mind someone who never had it. It's also most common in people with severe epilepsy or untreated epilepsy who are asleep on their stomachs when it happens.

Probably best not to speculate too much on this just now mind you. Just can't help wondering if he's got a track record though.... :-/


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[Cherwell]

...Except that it wouldn't be a natural death, and would not be considered just a coincidence, as this time round they would probably have been able to prove that it was caused by the drug he was giving her...(or withdrawal from, etc.) The fact that his previous wife died of an epileptic fit would mean that more thorough investigations would be carried out this time round and he would likely not get away with that twice...
I agree with the idea of other posters that he may well have intended for her to have some sort of accident (e.g. driving) whilst under influence of the drug or similar, which, given her dislike of driving and nervousness about it, would be more plausible than another wife dying of an epileptic fit...

OK, it's your scenario, but in your first post you didn't specify an epileptic fit, you said "something major like an epileptic fit", using it as an example, so that is what I responded to. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[Cherwell]

I know that a person who does not ( or has not previously ) suffered from epilepsy can have an epileptic fit for the first time in their 40s or 50s - but from what I have read, I understand that in order for a death to be classed as SUDEP ( as in the case of ISs wife ) then the person has to have some previous history of epilepsy.

Nothing has been said about Helen having such a history, so an epileptic fit would have to have been her first time. Would they not be able to find this from the PM ? I dont know, am just asking the question.

That's why I considered sudden death from a more common cause, eg stroke or heart attack, especially given the high blood pressure diagnosis.

btw I'm guessing that SUDEP is Sudden Unexpected Death from Epilepsy, is that right?

 

[Tortoise]

wonder how many hair cuts he had between April and July

Jumping off this post, OS said -

.[FONT=&quot]“I was told about a note dad said Helen had left. He mentioned there was a note left saying she had gone for a break in Broadstairs”, he tells jurors.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“Dad said he was having his hair cut in Royston before he came home and the note was found.”

Then under cross examination it's reported -

"Oliver said he could be wrong about his dad going for a haircut on April 11, 2016."

Now doesn't this also confirm the probability that IS made out to OS he'd found the note on Tuesday! We know he hasn't told anyone he went for a haircut on Monday, and I'm sure he would have slipped a haircut in if it gave him another alibi for being out of the house on Monday afternoon.

I think it unlikely that OS would have had that idea if IS hadn't actually told him that.

So the issue of which day it was that he said he'd found the note very nearly came out in court! I bet IS was having palpitations.

Anyway, yes, I'd like to know how short he had his hair cut. And sprucing himself up after such a deed makes me think he was feeling quite pleased with himself.
[/FONT]

 

[snoopydog]

Jumping off this post, OS said -

.[FONT=&quot]“I was told about a note dad said Helen had left. He mentioned there was a note left saying she had gone for a break in Broadstairs”, he tells jurors.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
“Dad said he was having his hair cut in Royston before he came home and the note was found.”

Then under cross examination it's reported -

"Oliver said he could be wrong about his dad going for a haircut on April 11, 2016."

Now doesn't this also confirm the probability that IS made out to OS he'd found the note on Tuesday! We know he hasn't told anyone he went for a haircut on Monday, and I'm sure he would have slipped a haircut in if it gave him another alibi for being out of the house on Monday afternoon.

I think it unlikely that OS would have had that idea if IS hadn't actually told him that.

So the issue of which day it was that he said he'd found the note very nearly came out in court! I bet IS was having palpitations.

Anyway, yes, I'd like to know how short he had his hair cut. And sprucing himself up after such a deed makes me think he was feeling quite pleased with himself.
[/FONT]

I just thought why on earth Didn't IS just text himself from Helens phone to say she was going away for a break?


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[Tortoise]

I just thought why on earth Didn't IS just text himself from Helens phone to say she was going away for a break?


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Maybe because his phone was in the same location as Helen's?

 

[snoopydog]

Maybe because his phone was in the same location as Helen's?

He could have left it somewhere else, jeez he's so stupid!


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[snoopydog]

Was looking at IS wife FB memorial page there. Note IS didn't join the group 7 years ago like some of the others. He was ADDED 5 years ago by his sister in law..... [emoji35]


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[snoopydog]

Oh dear, just been digging...... IS admits on the FB widow page that the doctors admitted to him the real cause of his wife's death is unknown although it was said by the coroners report to be SUDEP. I'm going to leave it at that. I feel bad I'm even going down this route of thinking...


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