VERDICT WATCH UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #24

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  • #581
Are there sleuthers who believe that by leaving LS in the area, inside or outside the park, following the sexual encounter (rape) - PR is responsible for her death, however that may have occurred whether by misadventure, misfortune or suicide (but definitely NOT by injuries sustained during the attack) and therefore that should be a ‘guilty’ for manslaughter?

Is PR liable for her welfare in this scenario and how?

Did he owe LS a specific legal duty at this point? (We know he owed her a moral one)

I am just trying to understand how the law applies.
I think he directly caused her death. I do not think he left her alive inside or outside the park. I respect everyone’s opinions and every time I try to considered anything else I just cannot imagine Libby going into the park alone or staying in the park after. And I know I may be rationalizing her behavior but it is where my head is on this one. MOO
 
  • #582
I must admit this has really shaken my faith in the legal system. Libby's while private life was up for speculation when she hadn't done anything wrong and had been discharged from the mental health services. Yet any psych assessments of PR weren't allowed.

And I'm really wondering if this system of trial by jury is the best if the law is so complex. I can't think of anything else fair but there's got to be a less combatative way of finding the truth rather than twisting it to suit.


I've seen a few people mention the fact she'd been discharged from the MH services (I assume CAHMS) and that must mean she's fine.
From what I've read/has been reported it seems that actually yes, she was in a good place and her angst was behind her.
Don't be fooled that CAHMS only discharge well people though. Far from it.
The service is massively underfunded and arguably not fit for purpose.
 
  • #583
I've just been reading up on the CPS legal guidance on unlawful act manslaughter. [ Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service ]

Relevant parts (IMO):

"The offence is made out if it is proved that the accused intentionally did an unlawful and dangerous act from which death inadvertently resulted.

An objective test must be applied to the question as to whether an accused's unlawful act, from which death results, was dangerous - DPP v Newbury (Neil) [1977] Crim. L.R. 359. In judging whether the act was dangerous the test is not did the accused recognise that it was dangerous but would all sober and reasonable people recognise its danger. The jury has to decide whether D's unlawful act exposed V to the risk of "some' harm - Church [1966] 1 QB 59; R v JM and SM [2012] EWCA Crim 2293.

Unlawful act manslaughter requires proof that the defendant committed a relevant crime, with the mens rea for that crime. The unlawful act must therefore be criminal in nature and must also be dangerous - R v Larkin [1943] KB 174.

The prosecution must establish that the unlawful act was a cause of the death without an intervening act to break the chain of causation – R v Lewis [2010] EWCA Crim 151 "

"Offences which are criminal only because of the negligent manner of their commission cannot be relied on to prove unlawful act manslaughter - Andrews v DPP [1937] A.C. 576)."


The unlawful act was rape - I don't see the inherent danger to life. Maybe I'm looking at it too literally. I think that danger would be the act of asphyxiation, the prosecution's case, which would be murder.

MOO

The unlawful and dangerous act is the sexual assault/rape, which you can see as an ongoing transaction. So if she died trying to escape him - i think you can say his intentional criminal attack directly caused it, even though he did not intend or foresee it.

This is the same as if he were chasing her down the street following a rape, and in her drunken state, she tripped over, banged her head and died. He is constructively responsible because a reasonable person ought to have known he was placing her in danger

I agree that if he left and she ended up falling in the river much later then the chain of causation might be broken

It feels tenuous because we are really speculating when/how she died in this scenario

Overall I feel he is guilty of manslaughter at least because having terrorised the poor girl, and best case, abandoned her in the cold in a remote location, he should have realised she might come to harm.
 
  • #584
Duplicate post
 
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  • #585
Duplicate post
 
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  • #586
If I assume that the witnesses to the screams were right with their timing and SA did see PR leaving the park I think the following happened.

He raped her by the green shed. She then used what strength she had through panic and adrenaline and ran off into the park - her nearest escape route. She went towards the pond and after a few seconds PR followed her as he's not sure what to do. She screamed then and these are probably the screams that SA heard. PR tried to get her to come back and she backed away from him again heading into the park and more in the direction of the river.

At this point PR realised he was in trouble and needed to get out of there so left quickly so she couldn't follow him. This is when SA saw him leaving the park.

Libby realised shortly afterwards that he had gone and she doesn't know where she is. Starts roaming the park slowly and in distress. Screams again and these are what the second witnesses heard.

Eventually, after getting more and more disorientated and upset she ends up at the river and either falls in or in desperation decides the river is a better option than dealing with what just happened and puts herself in.

He goes back later to relive his sexusl joy and see if there is any trace of her. Sees he can't see her in the park so assumes she went home. No police in the area so she can't have reported him. Feels off the hook. Goes about his business on a sexual high for the rest of the evening.
I do not see PR chasing her in the park if he raped her near the green shed. I think at that point he would have just got in his car and left. Why chase after her, he got what he came for. If she ran in before he raped her, I think he would chase but not after the rape. MOO
 
  • #587
I do not see PR chasing her in the park if he raped her near the green shed. I think at that point he would have just got in his car and left. Why chase after her, he got what he came for. If she ran in before he raped her, I think he would chase but not after the rape. MOO
Yes. I agree with this. I can't see any reason why he would chase her, having raped her. I don't see how he would be worried he'd be done for rape either. He's stupid enough to think he can lie his way out of everything.
 
  • #588
Hamg on, I thought we could see two headlights in the yeast factory footage? Which would suggest he was parked at the end of Beresford ie facing the park, not side on. No?
I agree @CoverMeCagney The CCTV footage showing the headlights was from two cameras. The yeast factory and a house. I think the house is actually in the other side of Beresford. I will try to look for the video and the picture someone posted of which house may be the CCTV footage house.
 
  • #589
  • #590
I have to confess- I must remember UK murder only has one option? Am I correct. The state in the US I live has three murder verdicts. 1st degree, 2nd degree, and 3rd degree. Not all states have 3rd degree. We also have voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. I do not know all the details but here is a brief - 1st degree- premeditated. 2nd - not premeditated days or months ahead of time. More like moments ahead of time. Two men in a bar fight and one goes to his car, gets a gun and kills the other. 3rd- killing someone during the act of another felony, such as burglary or rape. I will have to look up manslaughter.
 
  • #591
  • #592
I have to confess- I must remember UK murder only has one option? Am I correct. The state in the US I live has three murder verdicts. 1st degree, 2nd degree, and 3rd degree. Not all states have 3rd degree. We also have voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. I do not know all the details but here is a brief - 1st degree- premeditated. 2nd - not premeditated days or months ahead of time. More like moments ahead of time. Two men in a bar fight and one goes to his car, gets a gun and kills the other. 3rd- killing someone during the act of another felony, such as burglary or rape. I will have to look up manslaughter.
You certainly have a large *menu* for criminals to choose from!
 
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  • #593
You certainty have a large *menu* for criminals to choose from!
Note the gun aspect in the US puts it at murder level 2! That would put you at level murder full stop here.
 
  • #594
My interpretation of the law is that unless she died as a direct result due to injuries sustained during the attack, then no, it wouldn’t be manslaughter.

I think if the injuries were caused during the course of the attack even if not directly by his hand, then that would constitute manslaughter also. If, for example, the rape took place on the bank of the river and she fell in whilst defending herself and drowned.

I am thinking that once he has left the scene, unless she is suffering from injuries caused during the attack at that moment, manslaughter cannot be applied.

but I do accept that I could be completely wrong and I would be grateful for someone to put me right!
I think this scenario is close to what I now think may have happened. I think PR silenced her early on, the rape took place close to the river, in a secluded hidden spot previously 'scoped'. PR may have part-suffocated her during the assault, and she could have passed out as a result of this - combined with drunkenness and exposure and fear.
PR left in a panic before he had intended to, and went home. Libby was left there for 2 hours, unconscious and freezing at the very least. If I recall correctly, the pathologist said that one third of her body had been exposed to temperature of minus 2 degrees at some point, so that might fit with PR having removed her coat and top? PR went back at 2.30am perhaps unsure of what he may or find - or perhaps he knew what he would find, either way his own intentions were worked out.
She was still where he had left her and not moving, he put her in the water without hesitating or checking her condition and left again as fast as he could.
So I think she may have died of hypothermia, or suffocation, or drowning but I think this would place all the blame on PR.
 
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  • #595
I did not follow this case closely, but I believe that the defendants actions directly caused PC Harper’s death. The manslaughter vs murder was based upon whether or not they intended to cause his death (were aware that they were causing his death)

You're right but they later even appealed (unsuccessfully) the manslaughter arguing misdirection by the judge over what that required. They were saying that his death wasn't a sufficiently foreseeable consequence of the theft. The appeal court however was happy with the judge's direction. Part and parcel of the actual physical theft itself was an agreement to drive at speed (or do what it takes) to get away and that rather than the physical act of theft in isolation would foreseeably result in someone coming to harm.
 
  • #596
I have to confess- I must remember UK murder only has one option? Am I correct. The state in the US I live has three murder verdicts. 1st degree, 2nd degree, and 3rd degree. Not all states have 3rd degree. We also have voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. I do not know all the details but here is a brief - 1st degree- premeditated. 2nd - not premeditated days or months ahead of time. More like moments ahead of time. Two men in a bar fight and one goes to his car, gets a gun and kills the other. 3rd- killing someone during the act of another felony, such as burglary or rape. I will have to look up manslaughter.

A bit of light reading for you!

Basically murder is murder is murder.
Manslaughter can be voluntary or involuntary.

Life imprisonment in England and Wales - Wikipedia

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.u...-Manslaughter-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf
 
  • #597
Note the gun aspect in the US puts it at murder level 2! That would put you at level murder full stop here.
Yes! The only difference in 1st and 2nd here is how long you thought about it!
 
  • #598
  • #599
Just curious, do you have vehicular and involuntary vehicular homicide? That is used here for example if a drunk person runs over and kills a person.
 
  • #600
Yes! The only difference in 1st and 2nd here is how long you thought about it!
That makes sense - 2nd degree murder in the heat of the moment and 1st for real cunning psychopaths planning in advance.
 
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