UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #20

[Winterbells]

You can walk straight into the river in my local town. Steps down to it in many places and footpaths with no railings. Luckily the night life in my town is dead (even without covid) so not been any accidents.

Not relating this to Libbys case by the way just an observation on rivers.

Yep - it's the same in London and Durham, and probably everywhere, I agree. I was definitely wrong about safety and rivers, I can see that, but trying to imagine @wilkela's scenario and couldn't think it was feasible really.

 

[LucyRocket]

Hello to everybody on this thread I am a new poster writing my very first post although I have been browsing through Websleuths for a few years now. I am from Poland. I am just wondering how come police got hold of PR? Did someone inform them about their suspicions about him? Or was he a person of interest because of his earlier incidents?

I believe that when Libby went missing CCTV highlighted PR and his car led them to his address. They searched his car and found the trophies from his previous crimes. I'm not certain, but it appears this is how it may have unfolded

 

[mrjitty]

One suspects the defence will have few or no witnesses.

So I am looking forward to closing.

So far as we know, the defence won't put manslaughter on the table - so that removes versions where he chases her into the river. So either he put her in there, or she went in there under her own power. Those are the questions for the jury

My problem with her putting herself in there is it is a hell of a way to go out. Drowning yourself is not an easy thing to do unless you are in over your head and can't find an exit.

So wouldn't she just get out?

I can't really see her throwing herself in the river in a suicide attempt at that point of the river. Off a high bridge maybe.

 

[elliefant]

Re river sides, this is the photo the Hull Daily Mail is carrying of the area.

 

[mrjitty]

Previous convictions represent a character picture, not whether he’s guilty of murder.

This is too simplistic.

Similar fact evidence can be used to explain what he was doing out there that night for example. He says running, but the convictions prove he was out there to continue his spree of sex offences. This is critical to motive, and disproving his statements rather than mere "bad character"

 

[mrjitty]

View attachment 280725

Re river sides, this is the photo the Hull Daily Mail is carrying of the area.

I mean call me crazy, but this doesn't look like a river you jump in for a suicide attempt.

Even if she went in by accident, she can easily get out.

 

[stephaniejanes]

One suspects the defence will have few or no witnesses.

So I am looking forward to closing.

So far as we know, the defence won't put manslaughter on the table - so that removes versions where he chases her into the river. So either he put her in there, or she went in there under her own power. Those are the questions for the jury

My problem with her putting herself in there is it is a hell of a way to go out. Drowning yourself is not an easy thing to do unless you are in over your head and can't find an exit.

So wouldn't she just get out?

I can't really see her throwing herself in the river in a suicide attempt at that point of the river. Off a high bridge maybe.

I agree. Suicide is not reasonable in my opinion. Women after a traumatic rape don't typically immediately commit suicide, perhaps days, weeks, or months later. But not immediately after. In that moment you're in survival mode. My thought is, had she been conscious and alive, she would have left the park and scene of the attack - not went to the waters edge and passed out.

I discussed this with my sister who is a traumatic rape survivor (similar situation - she had also been drinking to same extent as Libby, was similar age, and it was mid winter and snowy) to help me understand frame of mind in such a terrifying time.

 

[wilkela]

I mean call me crazy, but this doesn't look like a river you jump in for a suicide attempt.

Even if she went in by accident, she can easily get out.

she was drunk ,confused and hypothermic it is not that easy to get out if you hardly can walk in straight line
i don't think so she was able jump into river if anything she fell in it. it happened very often to drunk people that they end in dangerous locations because they don't know where they going(she couldn't even find her own house it says a lot)

 

[Dotta]

Well I have a feeling that there are more people involved in this crime. Maybe PR was caught in drug dealing hence his cruising the streets and going to the park at ungodly hours. Maybe he started with Libby and others finished and disposed of her body

 

[Winterbells]

I watched a crime docco called 'Outcry' a while ago (really good) in which a bloke who'd been on the jury had been one of a minority who was voting not guilty during the debating. Those who believed he was guilty were really pressuring the not-guilty jurors to change their minds. The judge wanted a unanimous verdict. Finally, he became the last dissenting voice. He said he was bullied and pressured and in the end he put his hand up and voted guilty because they'd been stuck there in the hotel for days and everyone around him just wanted to go home. I felt really sorry for the guy. He cried when he recounted the story. I just pray I'll never be asked to be on a jury, especially if it's a case of this nature, where it's clear the bloke is guilty, but hard to follow the rules of justice when making that decision. The experience of being on this forum is probably the closest thing I'll get to being on a jury and I always think of that juror when I post or read other's posts. I think we're all striving to be as careful as we can be to respect others' views, and have only felt my hackles go up a couple of times either on behalf of others or myself.

 

[Winterbells]

View attachment 280725

Re river sides, this is the photo the Hull Daily Mail is carrying of the area.

I can see it wouldn't be hard to push or throw someone into that. *shudder*

 

[mrazda71]

Well I have a feeling that there are more people involved in this crime. Maybe PR was caught in drug dealing hence his cruising the streets and going to the park at ungodly hours. Maybe he started with Libby and others finished and disposed of her body

I'm almost certain that there was drug dealing talk and others perhaps being involved in the early days of the case but then, the prosecution started and said that PR and Libby are seen going into the park and then only PR leaving so, I would imagine that anyone else going in afterwards would also be seen at some point.

 

[wilkela]

I can see it wouldn't be hard to push or throw someone into that. *shudder*

and it wouldn't be difficult go there on your feet both options equally possible

 

[Dotta]

I'm almost certain that there was drug dealing talk and others perhaps being involved in the early days of the case but then, the prosecution started and said that PR and Libby are seen going into the park and then only PR leaving so, I would imagine that anyone else going in afterwards would also be seen at some point.

I see

 

[Alyce]

I still look regularly for the inquest results of the fireman but not found any still

From memory, I think the results were due round about January 2021 - will have to do another check

 

[Skigh]

I can see it wouldn't be hard to push or throw someone into that. *shudder*

I agree that it looks easy to throw someone in,especially if you are a butcher used to carrying and lifting dead animals.It looks far harder to fall in.
The ground is uneven and would have been muddy or slippery with snow or ice. There are also reeds at the edge which would prevent a stumble into deeper water.I also think forensic teams would have found evidence of broken reeds if she fell into them.

 

[JosieJo]

I agree that it looks easy to throw someone in,especially if you are a butcher used to carrying and lifting dead animals.It looks far harder to fall in.
The ground is uneven and would have been muddy or slippery with snow or ice. There are also reeds at the edge which would prevent a stumble into deeper water.I also think forensic teams would have found evidence of broken reeds if she fell into them.

Just to play devils advocate really but there are edges with no reeds just a direct drop

 

[Miss_French]

Well I have a feeling that there are more people involved in this crime. Maybe PR was caught in drug dealing hence his cruising the streets and going to the park at ungodly hours. Maybe he started with Libby and others finished and disposed of her body

PR didn't avoid being caught on CCTV entering the park with Libby or leaving alone, so how did anyone else get in and out without a trace?

 

[JosieJo]

In theory (and not saying this will be the case at all ) if she had fell in partial reeds having already being hypothermic etc this may have held her head out of water and account for the case of no signs of drowning ..and a subtle rise in the water may have taken her into the free flowing areas

 

[Vera_dci]

PR didn't avoid being caught on CCTV entering the park with Libby or leaving alone, so how did anyone else get in and out without a trace?

The croda cctv showed four people.
The key CCTV which could hold clues to Libby's homicide investigation