Found Deceased UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4

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  • #721
I have no idea how this will go
Presumably the Jury will have a much better idea than us but it seems difficult
The defendant does not have to prove his version of events and its impossible for the prosecution to show there was no other person on the coppice at the time
I do not think they have proven beyond reasonable doubt their case but who knows

The jury can only consider the evidence presented in Court, not other scenarios.

1. Is the defendants defence of a mystery man whom he doesn't know and who asked him to move a body within the realms of possibility based on the evidence from both the prosecution and the defence?

2. If no, then is it beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant killed LB?

3. If no, then did the defendant intend to kill or cause her serious injury?

We'll don't have long to wait to find out how the Judge explains to the jury exactly the questions they must consider.

I do hope Lindsay and her family get justice.
 
  • #722
Sorry but what 16 year old goes back to his home and in the short space of time gets a bag with all the tools to conceal a body that good a sniffer dog didnt even pick up the scent? What 16 year old randomly has to hand plastic sheeting etc? He knew what he was doing and he knew how to wrap a body. He was also that sick in the head he tried sawing her leg off. This is not a opportunist , this is a man who knew what he wanted to do and was ready to do it.

accylocal you have raised some very interesting points. It’s definitely something to think about...
 
  • #723
You make some very good points and I agree that the apparent resourcefulness in which he dealt with the body and quickly acquired the necessary equipment does lend itself to a sense of premeditation.

Personally, I think that it is unlikely in one so young. He would probably have ready access to tools and plastic sheeting from the travellers site and I think he made some elementary errors, which he probably would not have done with considered premeditation.

I think he is probably extremely focussed on things that grab his attention and worryingly, maybe stalking and assaulting females is his fixation.

I also think he is very good at thinking on his feet, has very little empathy and no fear of being caught.

There was a fabulous post on the LB thread a while back from someone with professional experience of Autism Spectrum Disorders. The OP articulated the thought process as being like a manual by which many ASD individuals operate and that neuro-typical individuals would not figure it out as it was beyond their way of reasoning.

I could never do the incredible post justice so I will try and find it, copy and repost, if that is allowed.

I cant agree with you regarding it wasnt premeditation. To face everything he faced in the death of Lindsay and to stay so cool it seems he must of been thinking about this for a while. For in half an hour to come back with a bag full of equipment to wrap and hide a body is in madness for someone of that age. I wouldn't know where to start and i dont think alot of people would. For me, its in his mind, hes watched something, hes seen series and films and watched someone do this. He left the blue bin in theory with no smell and no obvious signs a body had been carried in that bin. He knew where to hide the body before cemetery. For me, he sound like he knows what hes doing and from that i think hes done alot of research or its in his mind what and how he would do it. From his teachers he sounds like someone who needed telling what to do and wouldn't just go and do it himself. He was lazy in his traces with all the cctv, so how can he be so precise as to leave no murder scene evidence and to move a body so efficiently with no mess? The whole town of Accrington was looking and he sneaked passed them all.
 
  • #724
You make some very good points and I agree that the apparent resourcefulness in which he dealt with the body and quickly acquired the necessary equipment does lend itself to a sense of premeditation.

Personally, I think that it is unlikely in one so young. He would probably have ready access to tools and plastic sheeting from the travellers site and I think he made some elementary errors, which he probably would not have done with considered premeditation.

I think he is probably extremely focussed on things that grab his attention and worryingly, maybe stalking and assaulting females is his fixation.

I also think he is very good at thinking on his feet, has very little empathy and no fear of being caught.

There was a fabulous post on the LB thread a while back from someone with professional experience of Autism Spectrum Disorders. The OP articulated the thought process as being like a manual by which many ASD individuals operate and that neuro-typical individuals would not figure it out as it was beyond their way of reasoning.

I could never do the incredible post justice so I will try and find it, copy and repost, if that is allowed.

As promised previous post on Autism Spectrum Disorders by LucyRocket on 1st March 2020. It really is well worth reading.

I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.
 
  • #725
The jury can only consider the evidence presented in Court, not other scenarios.

1. Is the defendants defence of a mystery man whom he doesn't know and who asked him to move a body within the realms of possibility based on the evidence from both the prosecution and the defence?

2. If no, then is it beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant killed LB?

3. If no, then did the defendant intend to kill or cause her serious injury?

We'll don't have long to wait to find out how the Judge explains to the jury exactly the questions they must consider.

I do hope Lindsay and her family get justice.

Yes I realise the Jury or any other party can't suddenly make up their own scenarios

This is the problem imo ...although this stranger is beyond logic ...the prosecution have shown us nothing to clearly disprove it or indeed anything to show with any certainty he was the killer

The jury are left with nothing but logic to make their decision which will be more difficult

The mystery man addition will be his downfall...because if he had not added the detail ,only saying he moved and hid her, the prosecution would have been completely screwed imo
 
  • #726
I am not trying to make any points that are relevant to the investigation, I am interested in the full picture that's all. I hope to see a documentary on this case in a few years so we then get the full picture of what happened from the beginning to the end.

If the lad had prior offenses would we know of such things by now? I'm just not believing he randomly woke up one morning and decided to assault/murder a random woman in a random attack. Usual psychopaths of that kind tend to start small and go big.. hurting/torturing animals, sex offenses, assaults and get some kind of enjoyment from it. A lot probably don't even resort to murder.. to start big from nothing with no previous evidence of violence seems unbelivable

Just my opinion, but I don’t think it was intentional to kill her. I think he dragged her off the path to assault her, he heard the dog walkers, the ones that saw the jacket. He knelt on her throat to keep her quite till the walkers left. I’m doing so she has died. I’m not seeing anything clever about the killing or disposal. He was in panic mode. MOO
 
  • #727
Definitely agree that there is someone else involved and he knows who they are. He's either been forced into it not knowing what's happening. Or he's been utterly set up to take the fall because of his age.

if there was someone else involved I think it was to help the defendant. He could have told someone and they have given him instructions on what to do. MOO
 
  • #728
Been following this case since it happened. I am a local man living in Accrington and was one of the many who helped looked for Lindsay. I have lived in Accrington all my life and live currently 2 minutes away from the forest and cricket club where the defendant will have walked towards the cemetery. I walk my dog along these ways nearly everyday. Just to put you in the picture.

After following this since the start and today without no new evidence i have come to my conclusion of what i think has happened. As being close to the scene i can imagine the routes and ways he has also gone around it.

My judgement is that the defendant is the person who killed Lindsay Birbeck. This person has looked for the opportunity that day to kill a woman. In his own head he has planned, looked and seized that opportunity. On the day of the murder the defendant had a bag ready with all the equipment to try and dismember and hide a body aswell as the blue bin to move the body. The only reason you would have these to hand that day is because it was a planned murder by the boy. The CCTV shows the defendant leaving the coppice and walking back to get his bag. The time states 8 to 9 minutes, with myself knowing the local area that would give him enough time to walk down past the coppice, go behind the cemetery into the woods, collect his bag and walk back up. The only way he could of been that quick is by having that bag to hand , quickly collecting it and walking back up to burnley road and then entering the coppice. Its quite a walk there and back. Just to let you all know that where the defendant has walked, there is a short path that leads up to the caravan park where he was from. He will of walked from his travellers site with his bag and maybe the bin also but certainly the bag, left it in the bushes, murdered Lindsay and then walked down to get it. The bag would of stopped him doing what he wanted to do with also the fact he didn't know if it was all going to go as it did. He also didn't know where about on the coppice this murder would occur. Why the coppice also? It could of happened in the woods behind the cemetery or even around the cemetery area.

The witness woman who saw the man on the coppice will of been the defendant. Lucky for her i really do think that she could of been his victim and he was on the look for an opportunity to murder a woman. There is no reason for him to be around there other than for that in my eyes. No walkers had seen him before and i also know a lot of people who walk the coppice daily and they have never seen him before and neither has anyone else. I think her looking at him, her taking a different route and her walking down the path has saved her life. He has then disappeared as she said in her statement and he has gone looking for another victim. Unfortunately the next victim was Lindsay. I also think he has been startled by the witness on the coppice, leading him to exit the coppice near to the crime scene behind whittakers pub and at the most unluckiest of times for Lindsay, she has walked up that way, they have crossed paths and he has murdered her. Could it of been because he was leaving the coppice and going back towards home or was he waiting for someone else to walk that way? We will never know.

Because he has really planned what he was going to do he has wrapped the body very well that night, put the body into the blue bin and hidden this bin around the bushes and overgrown into the coppice behind the whittakers pub. When the time has come for him to move it because searches have gone cold and less people are around and haven't found the bin with the body he has then decided to move this into the cemetery to hide the body. Why the cemetery i thought? Why not bury the body around where he murdered her? I think there could be numerous reasons. Many people walking at night especially a lot more now with the disappearance of Lindsay and he could be caught. Maybe like a lot of killers he had a lot of remorse and a lot of days to think about it and he wanted to bury her in the cemetery. Or it was easy to move the body closer to where he knew and was easy access from where he lived and where he was used to. Maybe he saw the article regarding the police had done a search at the cemetery. Its all a mystery regarding that.

The items that have gone missing , her phone , fitbit etc and clothes he has got rid of on the day. Whether they have been burnt or whether he has just put them in a bin and its just been emptied the next day and its as easy as that. The items found in the skip will of been some of the waste he put in the bin after getting the body in the bin.

What i do find remarkable though is how he moved her. Now with her size and looking at Lindsay i would put her at around 14/15 stone. Now i have a bin outside full of garden waste, im a strong male and i tell you something its extremely difficult to pull in those bins and for someone to pull it along burnley road, where he was seen on cctv has small incline is remarkable.

The boy has serious issues. The motive i think will confuse people for a long time. Myself, i think he has alot of issues, had murder in his mind and wanted to do what he planned to do that day. He packed that bag full of essentials to hide a body that day and he was at the scene of the crime. Another reason i think he may of killed Lindsay, not for someone else but i think personally for him. Maybe he needed to prove a point to someone that he was this dangerous person to friends or to family and wanted a reputation. But my head says that he is just a cold blooded murderer like alot of people that have previously done it and Lindsay was entering the coppice while he was leaving or waiting and he has done what he wanted to do.

Regarding the gory way she was murdered, i think he has strangled her by kneeling on her neck then once she has has passed out he has made sure she is dead by stamping numerous times aggressively on her neck to make sure she was dead. Its like murderers who repeatedly stab a victim or use a hammer etc. Its never once.

I also think the husband and wife who witnessed a coat hung up in the bushes and a noise was the defendant with Lindsay. I think by then Lindsay was dead and he had taken her jacket off, put it to the side and he was planning to do something with the body or he was doing something with the body hence why the coat was taken off.

These are my views and to me i cant see it being anything else. If anyone wants to question or ask me anything about what i have said then i will answer.
Thanks Accylocal, I had wondered about the timescales quoted when he went and collected the rucksack, I am not overly familiar with that area but it did strike me that it would be a far stretch for him to get back to the traveller site in that time frame, pack a bag up and return between the times stated.
 
  • #729
Tuesday, August 11th:
*Re-Trial Continues (Day 7) (@ 10:30am UK) – UK – Lindsay Birbeck (47) (from Huncoat; last seen ~ 2:30pm on Aug. 12, 2019 & walking towards Accrington on Burnley Road @ 4:06pm on CCTV; found Aug. 24, 2019 in the area of Accrington Cemetery on Burnley Road) - *16/now 17 year old arrested (8/27/19) on suspicion of murder & charged (8/31/19) & arraigned (8/3/20) with murder & (added on 8/3/20) with manslaughter. Plead not guilty. Remanded to custody.
Re-Trial began on 8/3/20 (should last 2 weeks). Jurors: 9 women & 3 men.
Previous trial info & other court info from 6/1/20 thru 7/21/20 & retrial from 8/3/20 (Day 1) thru 8/7/20 (Day 5) reference post #517 here:
Found Deceased - UK - Lindsay Birbeck, 47, Accrington, 12 Aug 2019 *Arrest* #4

8/10/20 Day 6: The defendant attended Preston Crown Court today & appeared in the dock. The Judge & defense barrister Mark Fenhalls QC are discussing some preliminary matters due to a discussion around some of the agreed facts in the case before the jury are brought into court. The jurors were taken through some agreed facts between the prosecution & defense. They have also been asked to make some corrections to statements in their jury bundles. Regarding: "There are police reports that say Mrs. Bibby said 'fabric' or 'material', and I will tell you her response, but it is not an agreed fact that she said 'jacket, or that 'there was a jacket there'." Mr. McLachlan QC told the jury: "There is following further evidence - the blue Hyndburn council wheelie bin, there's further DNA evidence of blood stains - three small airbone spots were identified on the inside of the bin. "The DNA obtained is from a male individual - to this date this has been referred to as 'unamed male two' but cannot be determined from who it came. "In relation to the Skechers trainers, a mixture of DNA from at least three individuals was obtained. The major DNA profile matched the defendant's profile, and Lindsay's is a minor. "There was some DNA from someone else which is unknown. "If we go to the gloves, which were found at the deposition site - the forensic scientist found DNA matching the defendant's & another person, so two individuals. "The final agreed fact is that on August 3 this year the defendant pleaded guilty to assisting an offender."
Defense barrister Mark Fenhalls QC took the jury through more agreed facts. These include: details on the defendant’s height, age & weight & family details; Lindsay’s height & weight; No DNA from Lindsay was found on the defendant’s clothes recovered at his home; No evidence of sexual contact & no DNA from the defendant; No clothing attributed to Lindsay found at the defendant’s home; No pairs of trainers at the defendant’s home with a ‘blue flash logo’ as identified by Zoe Braithwaite from the lone male figure she saw at the Coppice. Det. Sgt. David Bowler took the witness box & is discussed the police search & the 3,000 hours worth of CCTV that was analysed. And cross examined by Mr. McLachlan. David McLachlan QC formally closed the case for the prosecution. Mr. Fenhalls told the jury the defendant will not be called to the stand to give evidence. Mr. Fenhalls will not be calling for any more evidence to be brought before the jury. The case for the defense has now closed. The case against the defendant has now concluded. Mrs. Justice Yip directed the jury on legal directions. Mrs. Justice Yip: "You are only considering counts one & two (murder & manslaughter) as the defendant has already pleaded guilty to count three (assisting an offender)." The Judge concluded her legal directions to the jury. Prosecutor David McLachlan QC did his closing arguments. The Judge adjourned the case to 10.30am tomorrow, 8/11 and the jury was sent home. The defendant will appear on video link tomorrow instead of appearing in the dock.
 
  • #730
Just my opinion, but I don’t think it was intentional to kill her. I think he dragged her off the path to assault her, he heard the dog walkers, the ones that saw the jacket. He knelt on her throat to keep her quite till the walkers left. I’m doing so she has died. I’m not seeing anything clever about the killing or disposal. He was in panic mode. MOO

I totally agree...I think the disposal was not at all as "clever and carefully planned" as the prosecution claimed in closing ..( as the good as the prosecution was) ...I think it was more luck than judgement he got away with it as long as he did

The line that caught my eye was the prosecution claim he hid the body so well a trained police dog and handler didn't find her ..as a juror that particularly statement may have annoyed me ...as a Joe public dog found her and its owner felt her underfoot
 
  • #731
Yes I realise the Jury or any other party can't suddenly make up their own scenarios.This is the problem imo ...although this stranger is beyond logic ...the prosecution have shown us nothing to clearly disprove it or indeed anything to show with any certainty he was the killer.The jury are left with nothing but logic to make their decision which will be more difficult
The mystery man addition will be his downfall...because if he had not added the detail ,only saying he moved and hid her, the prosecution would have been completely screwed imo

I agree, the story is so far fetched it would not even be considered by a fiction writer.
But I guess the people who wrote his statement for him felt that they had to provide some kind of excuse for him moving LBs body.
Without the Mr Mystery reason, him moving and hiding her body just sounds ridiculous, if he didn't actually have anything to do with her murder.
 
  • #732
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As promised previous post on Autism Spectrum Disorders by LucyRocket on 1st March 2020. It really is well worth reading.

I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.
Thanks Whitehall, I remember reading this post on the original thread and thinking Wow, this person would be on my dinner party list. Very interesting and articulate in how she narrated her thoughts and explanation. I enjoyed it just as much the second time around. I would be interested to hear their thoughts now more about the defendant is known
 
  • #733
Can I just ask what happens if more evidence came out? Would they look at this after the conviction? I believe there is cctv footage going around of other individuals on the area at the same time.
 
  • #734
The facts are is that he had all the equipment to conceal and try and dismember a body. The fact that in a very small timescale he crossed the road at whittakers pub, went down the side of the cemetery which is on a slope, walked down towards that way which leads you across a small railway bridge and into the forest and then walked back up in such a short time shows you the bag was around that area. He couldnt of gone any further than that timescale. It make senses as he knows that area and its easy to hide a bag. He couldn't of hidden it on the road as people had cctv and he would of been spotted, he couldn't of hidden it in the cemetery as they also had cctv so must of been somewhere in the wooded area. He was captured on cctv going through the brambles behind a company called isofirm i think it was called. Not sure what time that was but if it was between the times of when he left Lindsay and came back with a bag then he would of hidden it around that wooded area.

So to conclude all that he has certainly planned it. What 16 year old buys very good quality plastic sheeting to wrap a body if its not planned. A bag with gloves, a saw etc hes planned what to do and hes planned how hes going to deal with it. In my eyes hes planned the bin also as in a strange way its not the worst idea. In this area alot of kids carry and mess around with bins moving either stolen goods etc.


Hi Accy, Thanks for all the local knowledge, it really helps give perspective to this case. Just wanted to ask, I don't know if you know this lad or know of him, but do you think that someone with his learning difficulties would be capable of meticulously planning this on his own. I mean from the start right through to buying/acquiring good plastic sheeting. I don't know what his diagnosis is. I work with students from a main stream school who are statemented. One has Aspergers and one has Autism. I get not all people with these conditions are the same. The Aspergers boy is very chatty but cannot retain information. If you send him a message he gets lost of goes and does something he wants to do first. The Autism girl is much like the description of the boy. She doesn't make eye contact and after 2 years will come and talk but look everywhere but at you. She is good a one thing but she only works until she doesn't want to and will just down tools and say she is tired. In the first trial, it ended early because the defendant was tired. Going by the evidence he is fit and so I think they meant he got mentally tired and couldn't follow proceedings. It just seems to me a lot of complex planning for someone with low iq.
Sorry this has gone into the body of your post, I made a mistake and didn't put it after Quote
 
  • #735
As promised previous post on Autism Spectrum Disorders by LucyRocket on 1st March 2020. It really is well worth reading.

I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.
Thanks for seeking this out and reposting. It is enlightening, particularly with the ref to Jonty Bravery.
 
  • #736
I agree, the story is so far fetched it would not even be considered by a fiction writer.
But I guess the people who wrote his statement for him felt that they had to provide some kind of excuse for him moving LBs body.
Without the Mr Mystery reason, him moving and hiding her body just sounds ridiculous, if he didn't actually have anything to do with her murder.

Yes I agree ..I was thinking more along the lines of ...I moved her someone else killed her ...I'm saying nothing more about who and why ...type scenario
 
  • #737
As promised previous post on Autism Spectrum Disorders by LucyRocket on 1st March 2020. It really is well worth reading.

I'm not quite sure how to write this, so bear with me while I try and get started.

I can't join in with any of the theorizing because it's been reported that the youth has autism.

Everything I see posters theorizing seems to be around the thinking of someone not on the spectrum. When apparently he is. We have no idea of his range of autism, all I can tell is that he has speech. That's it.

I'm trying to recall some of the things that stand out to me.

1. Him spending so much time alone on the coppice being unusual. No it isn't. All of the male youths I with with spend nearly all of their time alone, having as little communication with other people as possible. Some spending all of their time on a computer, and some spending equal time on a computer and outdoors. Whether on a computer or outdoors, their thoughts are completely solitary. For those that have speech, even at times when they are having conversation with others, the other party has to follow the conversation as it plays out in the mind of the person with autism, or they can't continue with the conversation.

(I mean no disrespect by using 'they', by 'they' I am referring to my recollection of each time I have supported young males who have autism, in a criminal investigation).

2. Trying to rationalise his actions. A person with autism has their own 'manual' that they live by. By 'manual', this is how I refer to their understanding of how life should be. You can't tell them any different. They will just think you are wrong. Autism is very matter-of-fact and most people on the spectrum don't have the capacity to accept that there are different ways for different people. Eg. A person who is noisy is wrong. They will not accept that that person is happy, or excited in that moment. They are just a bad person for being noisy. Noise is not acceptable according to the manual. This is one example, but it applies to their thinking about all aspects of human behaviour. You can add to their manual, but you can't change it.

3. Jonty Bravery being used as an example of a person with autism understanding the consequences of his actions, because he had reportedly said he wanted to kill someone, and had specifically said that he wanted to push someone off a high structure. This only shows that he had a plan of action. He knew what actions he wanted to carry out, but there is nothing that's been reported on that case which indicates he had any connections to the emotions or consequences on victims. Which most people on the autistic spectrum wouldn't.

4. It's very difficult to question someone with autism. You know the questions that you looking for answers to, but they don't understand why you are questioning, and due to the point I made about a conversation having to follow their own thoughts, don't cope well with questioning. They don't understand why you would be asking, because of course, the logical answers are all in the 'manual', which as far as they are concerned, we know. They would want to escape from a situation of being questioned. It's about one of the most anxiety- inducing situations they face.

To try and cover these points with a specific example, I'll tell you about the most recent arrest I have been part of. A young man with autism I know very well. Functions fairly independently. I have as good a relationship with him as anyone. He goes out for hours during the night. I don't know what he's doing for these hours. In the morning he'll show me pictures of the moon, pictures of car lights in the fog. So I can see some of the places he's been. I'll ask him what was he doing out late at night and he'll say something like "I mustn't cross the road when it's foggy Lucy because the car might not see me and bang" and then he'll walk away, because I've asked a question. He will go out for hours during the day and I know he is spending a lot of time in the bushes at the primary school. He tells me that there are often balls in the bushes and that's why he goes there, to look for them. He'll spend hours in there watching the children. You can imagine what people think when they see this, and he doesn't 'look' disabled. I ask him if he has a girlfriend and he says when he has a wife he will let me know, that there are lots of girls in the primary school and lots of girls in the college and who knows which one will be his wife. I try to explain to him that he mustn't look at the girls in the school because he is a man, so they can't be his wife, but again he walks away, as my opinion is nonsense according to his manual.

I know this has no relevance to this case, I just thought maybe for some who might not have been in a position to have experience of autism it might be a little helpful. I still can't give any answers though because each person has slight variations, and as I said, all I think I know about the person you are discussing in this case is that he has autism and speech. All the wondering about why he cut her shoes, you'll never come up with an answer. Because you're looking at it from your reasoning. He will have, what is to him, the perfectly logical answer as to why he did that, but I can guarantee you that no matter how long you think about it you are NEVER going to come up with what that is. Unless he tells us. It's in the manual. The one we don't have.

I notice that the other person on this forum who I know has a good insight into autism has gone very quiet also, they've probably been feeling as up against a wall as I have.

I’m not sure what the level of autism is in this case, but based on this insight of the condition, can we rule out that he didn’t just stumble on the body or witness another’s crime, and in his mind think, “a body should be buried in a cemetery”, and he then followed his “manual” to do all he could to straighten this problem out.

The nonsense mystery man may have been his way of justifying the movement of the body in his own head.

In all likelihood, he has probably been involved from the start, but I couldn’t rule out the above.

I don’t think there will be anything much from the defence summing up, so the judges summing up and direction will be key.
 
  • #738
I think you could be onto something there. That really could of been a possibility.

I thought this all along. That voice she heard and the red garment was the exact time she was being killed I think. 2 minutes earlier he might have been caught in the act. Moo all really sad.
 
  • #739
I’m not sure what the level of autism is in this case, but based on this insight of the condition, can we rule out that he didn’t just stumble on the body or witness another’s crime, and in his mind think, “a body should be buried in a cemetery”, and he then followed his “manual” to do all he could to straighten this problem out.

The nonsense mystery man may have been his way of justifying the movement of the body in his own head.

In all likelihood, he has probably been involved from the start, but I couldn’t rule out the above.

I don’t think there will be anything much from the defence summing up, so the judges summing up and direction will be key.


I said the same thing about the cemetery. "Well I've a dead body here, dead bodies go in the cemetery so if I take her there then it's ok"
 
  • #740
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