UK - London's Burning - Tottenham Riots, August 2011

[badhorsie]

I am confused..why do you think these people have no chance of getting the " baubles"? Or that they have a lack of opportunities in education?

I live in a "well to do" hunting village in southern England. A lot of property here is owned by Londoners who come down for a few weeks each year and play at being 1950s country people with their Cath Kidston crockery and Boden retro inspired clothes, the village shops price their goods accordingly.

Yet there are people here whose children go to school in little more than rags, the school keeps a supply of clothes to give them. You don't hear much about rural poverty but it exists and we have people who don't riot, they usually die early in farm accidents, suicides, alcoholism or live on into a miserable old age.

We have good local schools, but the luckier kids who get to Uni, get good degrees end up in the same situation as the kids who never went to UNI at all. THERE ARE NO JOBS, only seasonal or restaurant work, shop jobs, mostly part time. If you are in a family with connections then things are eased, internships are available, jobs come along but most ordinary kids don't have connections like this.

At the same time, in every media they are bombarded with advertising, fashion spreads in magazines with clothes costing hundreds of pounds, expensive make up, TV adverts of electrical goods, bigger, brighter, better.
Aspirational articles, it is obscene and it disgusts me and many others and it is building a society of haves and have nots and a bubbling anger, resentment and rage and things are going to boil over, they just are.
I am NOT getting a race vibe about these riots. The behaviour is bad, yes. Deplorable, yes but there are all races and creeds rioting. This is well documented.
This, IMO, is all about hopelessness, consumerism, unfairness, and I totally agree with what Wfgodot says, they are going to break the glass to get the baubles and when this is all over they will have even less chance of getting a job, with a criminal record, bigger resentments of society and the police and they will have children and the cycle will be repeated

OK rant over

 

[badhorsie]

In the Guardian today,this was the scene in Hackney last night
"The police were hanging at the bottom of the road, hundreds of them, waiting for trouble," said one man in his early 40s, who had stood on his doorstep until 2am to protect his front windows. Like most people on the street he would not give his name.

"Their priority was to protect Mare Street … the banks, the post offices. That's what their priortity is. Not us. Taxpayers are supposed to serve and protect the community. It's a joke."

But the young rioters' grievances with the police, he and his friends agreed, were much more deep-seated. "When you have police officers jumping out of vans, calling 18-year-olds *****es and ******s; I'm a youth worker, I see it all over.

"That's what's happening. They are thinking, who the **** are you? And so it starts," he added.

"You have a generation of kids now that don't respect their parents or the police," chipped in his friend. "When we were youngsters we were made to have respect for the olders. Now if an older was to slap a youth that kid is going to pick up a hammer.

"I was one of these kids but it's bloody hard for them. There's nothing to do at all. University fees have gone up, education costs money. And there's no jobs. This is them sending out a message."

 

[wfgodot]

I am confused..why do you think these people have no chance of getting the " baubles"? Or that they have a lack of opportunities in education?

The window is wide open for those at the top, the upper and upper middle classes. Conversely, for those born into poverty, the window is very nearly shut. Yes, there are success stories for those near the bottom. Those should be celebrated as amazing achievements. Those who can push open the window by themselves - they are few.

 

[For The Kids]

I live in a "well to do" hunting village in southern England. A lot of property here is owned by Londoners who come down for a few weeks each year and play at being 1950s country people with their Cath Kidston crockery and Boden retro inspired clothes, the village shops price their goods accordingly.

I come from a small town in Cambridgeshire and we had the same problem in a way...people selling there houses in London and buying houses in our town because they was so much cheaper which then made it harder for locals to get houses. Additionally there is a problem with people from the poorer countries and taking the council housing and local people being refused it as they have to leave so many available for them which all makes it very hard for the locals.

Saying all that...there are " poorer" areas all over the country but...its the same old ones that are continually kicking off

 

[For The Kids]

The window is wide open for those at the top, the upper and upper middle classes. Conversely, for those born into poverty, the window is very nearly shut. Yes, there are success stories for those near the bottom. Those should be celebrated as amazing achievements. Those who can push open the window by themselves - they are few.

Im sorry but its a fact that most unemployed familes i know ( and there are many many on this estate) are better off than my husband and myself who dont rely on benefits . Seriously what do you think its like for those that work to see people not working with iphones? decent cars? the latest trainers? or a 3d plasma tv? My husband has actually been told by them that hes stupid to work when he could get more money for not working ( and hes a design en gineer ).

 

[badhorsie]

Im sorry but its a fact that most unemployed familes i know ( and there are many many on this estate) are better off than my husband and myself who dont rely on benefits . Seriously what do you think its like for those that work to see people not working with iphones? decent cars? the latest trainers? or a 3d plasma tv? My husband has actually been told by them that hes stupid to work when he could get more money for not working ( and hes a design en gineer ).

Well my experience is different. I regularly drive through a large council estate on my way to my mothers, there is also a small estate in the village.
Yes, you see the sky satellite discs but the houses are falling apart, even the ones that you can tell are owned by someone with pride. Old cars, kids hanging around, using public transport. I have never seen expensive cars.
I know that a lot shop using catalogues, probably paying weekly for these TVs, fancy phones and designer clothes, and suffer the consequential debt problems as a result.
Or they are obtained illegally...
People living on huge benefit payments are mostly myths perpetuated by the likes of the Daily Mail, have you tried to get benefits? not easy.
I have been unable to work since Jan 2010 (I am a RN) I got £65.00 a week for about 6 months, then I was deemed fit to work, even though I had two huge surgeries after that 6 months.
We are living on next to nothing atm. Today we are eating dinner that was reduced in price to 80p and stored in the freezer for two weeks. 1 lb of pork shoulder that I will eke out with veggies to feed four of us.
And I consider ourselves lucky

Will stop now as this is turning into a four yorkshiremen sketch, sorry

 

[For The Kids]

Well my experience is different. I regularly drive through a large council estate on my way to my mothers, there is also a small estate in the village.
Yes, you see the sky satellite discs but the houses are falling apart, even the ones that you can tell are owned by someone with pride. Old cars, kids hanging around, using public transport. I have never seen expensive cars.
I know that a lot shop using catalogues, probably paying weekly for these TVs, fancy phones and designer clothes, and suffer the consequential debt problems as a result.
Or they are obtained illegally...
People living on huge benefit payments are mostly myths perpetuated by the likes of the Daily Mail, have you tried to get benefits? not easy.
I have been unable to work since Jan 2010 (I am a RN) I got £65.00 a week for about 6 months, then I was deemed fit to work, even though I had two huge surgeries after that 6 months.
We are living on next to nothing atm. Today we are eating dinner that was reduced in price to 80p and stored in the freezer for two weeks. 1 lb of pork shoulder that I will eke out with veggies to feed four of us.
And I consider ourselves lucky

Will stop now as this is turning into a four yorkshiremen sketch, sorry

Yea but thats sickness benefit and not unemployment and for the record i think it sucks the situation your in I know of people that can play football and walk perfectly fine..and yet get DLA at the highest rate because they fake it when it matters. Its like people who need it cant get it and those that do have to jump through hoops to get it

And no ive not tried to get benefits or not lately but most of my family are on it and jeez they seem to know every loop hole out for getting more money which again sucks My cousin is unemployed and riding around in a 2011 car cause he claims he cant walk...and yet he goes on them quad things And no i dont think its fair when people get all that who ARE well and able to work and for that matter I dont like it when my husband is told hes a mug for working

Actually about the iphones..even if you buy them from a catalogue you would then have to take a contract out for it on top of the cost of it...and this is gonna be £30 + a month if they havent any money...well maybe not having the latest phones would help them

 

[Herding Cats]

What is a concern for me is that if this is a class warfare sort of thing, and about the economy and youth anger at lack of jobs and opportunities and training/education, it will not be getting better any time soon.

Greece had the riots because of the same sort of issues; and I know that England recently started cutting back on some things. So if the cause is the same, then we here in the US will be subject to this sort of issues when it finally comes down to cutting entitlements.

I am concerned for the future of the youths of the world, not just those in my neighborhood. But I honestly think that it's time to get tough, to pull it back together, and to get on about changing the future; not destroying the present.

There are a lot of components to this whole thing, a whole host of reasons that can be used to explain why this sort of thing is happening. None of them are easy fixes. All of the fixes 'leave someone out'. But we need to fix the problems, not throw more entitlements at it, more money at it. We need to address the issues, or we're all just circling the drain.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[For The Kids]

What is a concern for me is that if this is a class warfare sort of thing, and about the economy and youth anger at lack of jobs and opportunities and training/education, it will not be getting better any time soon.

Greece had the riots because of the same sort of issues; and I know that England recently started cutting back on some things. So if the cause is the same, then we here in the US will be subject to this sort of issues when it finally comes down to cutting entitlements.

I am concerned for the future of the youths of the world, not just those in my neighborhood. But I honestly think that it's time to get tough, to pull it back together, and to get on about changing the future; not destroying the present.

There are a lot of components to this whole thing, a whole host of reasons that can be used to explain why this sort of thing is happening. None of them are easy fixes. All of the fixes 'leave someone out'. But we need to fix the problems, not throw more entitlements at it, more money at it. We need to address the issues, or we're all just circling the drain.

Best-
Herding Cats

If you mean the Greek riots last year they were about a cop killing a 15 year old boy though I have a lot of friends in Greece ( I play a online game) and some of the idiots were involved in that. It scares me how lawless they appear to be there ie one was mad cause he said he had to work one day there was a riot on and he was worried he was missing the chance to hit a cop

 

[wfgodot]

Im sorry but its a fact that most unemployed familes i know ( and there are many many on this estate) are better off than my husband and myself who dont rely on benefits . Seriously what do you think its like for those that work to see people not working with iphones? decent cars? the latest trainers? or a 3d plasma tv? My husband has actually been told by them that hes stupid to work when he could get more money for not working ( and hes a design en gineer ).

It sounds as if many on the estate are obtaining "extra benefits" by criminal means.

People cheating a system? No, I've never heard of it! Of course some do. Some will. Some always will. Shame on them.

But I've heard such stories here for fifty years - Reagan was famous for his "welfare Cadillac" mothers, abusing those food stamp benefits. And all I can say is, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow.

 

[hockeymom]

I heard a Brit interviewed today and he was explaining that under Blair and Brown entitlements increased. and now its draining the system and they are being cut back so people are angry. That is the gist I got ,correct me if I'm wrong. I hate to say it,but I think we will see that happening in more countries,including the US. We all have become countries who overspend ,mostly on non essentials( fancy cars,bigger TVs ,cell phones,etc.),and have lost our values and sense of common decency because we want more "things". Maybe we need to go back to a simpler time,when what was important was a roof over our heads,food and family. If things continue the way they are,we may be forced into that.

PS I bet the people in Somalia would think they were Royals if they lived in the worst conditions these rioters are in!!

 

[For The Kids]

Well, sounds as if no one on your estate need riot then, at least.

It also sounds as if many are obtaining "extra benefits" by criminal means.

People cheating a system? No, I've never heard of it! Of course some do. Some will. Some always will. Shame on them.

But I've heard such stories here for fifty years - Reagan was famous for his "welfare Cadillac" mothers, abusing those food stamp benefits. And all I can say is, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to grow.

True...maybe the people here who work should riot because we dont get what the jobless people are getting Ok for eg m y husband is a design engineer which supposedly is a good job. He earns £260 after stoppages but pays his daughters CSA on top of that. Our rent is £90 a week. He spends £45 a week in petrol getting to work. In addition I am on a lot of medication for what i have to pay for. That leaves us around £80 for food, council tax, gas. electric, water, food, clothes, telephone and ofc the internet. If my husband gave his job up we would definetly be better off

As for why people arent rioting here..honestly its not because people dont need the money..i just saw a face page book dedicated to not rioting in Hull..and someone said that whilst this isnt the prettiest city in the country...they do care and look after where they live and they are there for each other. People here across the city ARE tight knit and a couple of events lately really have proved that and here the richer and poor do try and help each other and look after each other. In a couple of weeks we are moving back to my home town which is more "affluent" but seriously i will miss the people and spirit in this city

 

[For The Kids]

I heard a Brit interviewed today and he was explaining that under Blair and Brown entitlements increased. and now its draining the system and they are being cut back so people are angry. That is the gist I got ,correct me if I'm wrong. I hate to say it,but I think we will see that happening in more countries,including the US. We all have become countries who overspend ,mostly on non essentials( fancy cars,bigger TVs ,cell phones,etc.),and have lost our values and sense of common decency because we want more "things". Maybe we need to go back to a simpler time,when what was important was a roof over our heads,food and family. If things continue the way they are,we may be forced into that.

PS I bet the people in Somalia would think they were Royals if they lived in the worst conditions these rioters are in!!

This is a status i just saw on facebook and one i totally agree with

"RIP Broken Britain.. You went soft on discipline!.. You went soft on immigration! Parents were told.. 'No you can't smack the kids'....Teachers were prevented from chastising kids in schools.. The police couldn't clip a troublemaker round the ear.. Kids had rights blah blah blah.. Well done Britain..You shall reap what you sow.. We have lost a whole generation!!"

There have been nine and ten year old kids rioting!! Where the heck was there parents and why were they even allowed out that time of night especially in these dangerous times? What are these kids doing with the stuff they loot? its ok saying its kids upset with the system or not having a job but...at 9 or 10 years old?? I am sorry but something is seriously wrong there

As for the benefits under the new government..yes there was a uproar because they was going to take benefits off some people. The one i did agree with was taking family allowance off those that earn a lot. I know there is a new sickness one called Employment something for people that are sick and that actually pays more than Incapacity Benefit did or after a while but i dont know how hard it is to get it though.

I actually totally agree with your post though. I think a lot of people now just want things without working for it and that in some kids cases they simply expect to get the latest items.

 

[hockeymom]

True...maybe the people here who work should riot because we dont get what the jobless people are getting Ok for eg m y husband is a design engineer which supposedly is a good job. He earns £260 after stoppages but pays his daughters CSA on top of that. Our rent is £90 a week. He spends £45 a week in petrol getting to work. In addition I am on a lot of medication for what i have to pay for. That leaves us around £80 for food, council tax, gas. electric, water, food, clothes, telephone and ofc the internet. If my husband gave his job up we would definetly be better off

As for why people arent rioting here..honestly its not because people dont need the money..i just saw a face page book dedicated to not rioting in Hull..and someone said that whilst this isnt the prettiest city in the country...they do care and look after where they live and they are there for each other. People here across the city ARE tight knit and a couple of events lately really have proved that and here the richer and poor do try and help each other and look after each other. In a couple of weeks we are moving back to my home town which is more "affluent" but seriously i will miss the people and spirit in this city

Your post says it all. How sad that hard working people would be better off financially if they didn't work. I think its the increasing dependency on government that has created a monster because as we are seeing,the governments are running out of money and can't afford to pay people and then people are completly at a loss.I like that the city you are in is close knit and people of all walks of life help each other. In my opinion,thats how it should be.People helping each other ,not government always helping.Best of luck with your move.

 

[wfgodot]

Chuckleworthy DM headline about an unchuckleworthy subject:

Mr Moron torches Miss Selfridge: The moment set fire to dress and caused
High Street inferno (... a man is now helping police with their inquiries) (Daily Mail)

I posted the video of the incident last night @ #231. Looks like a white guy to me. Article at DM link above.

 

[wfgodot]

Blaming immigration is pandering to the lowest common denominator and suggests blind ethnocentrism.

Patriotism is not static: as Orwell wrote,

Patriotism has nothing to do with Conservatism. It is actually the opposite of Conservatism, since it is a devotion to something that is always changing and yet is felt to be mystically the same. It is the bridge between the past and future.

It's from his great essay "The Lion and the Unicorn," in which he also noted that England was a family, but.....

It is a family in which the young are generally thwarted and most of the power is in the hands of irresponsible uncles and bedridden aunts. Still, it is a family. It has its private language and its common memories, and at the approach of an enemy it closes its ranks. A family with the wrong members in control - that, perhaps, is as near as one can come to describing England in a phrase.

Relying on anecdotal accounts and received wisdom only blocks one's view of the real problem, both in England and here in the United States.

 

[wfgodot]

Paul Lewis, excellent observations in the Guardian:

Who are the rioters? Young men from poor areas ... but that's not the full story

The crowd gathered outside Chalk Farm tube station at 1am on Tuesday morning was representative of those who had been at the frontline of other riots over the previous 72 hours.

Anyone who has witnessed the disturbances up close will know there is no simple answer to the question: who are the rioters? Attempts to use simple categorisations to describe the looters belies the complex make-up of those who have been participating.
---

the rest at link above

 

[UFO]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...mingham-people-forced-strip-naked-street.html

Wow! Stealing clothes off of peoples backs! Even for riotors, this has got to be a new low.

 

[wfgodot]

According to Twitter accounts, many police are working 36 hour stretches. Pray God protect them.

 

[wfgodot]

Sample Twitter comments:

LOL! #UKriots #Humor: New logo for the 2012 London Olympics: http://yfrog.com/h4zxxxp

God gives us people to love and things to use, not things to love and people to use. #prayforlondon

Is it bad that I'm looking at everyone's feet to check out their new shoes #UKRiots