UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[sceawian]

Reckless, in this context, seems almost like an understatement. This is reckless with serious knobs on.

It's so difficult to get inside the mindset of someone that could have done what LL is alleged to have done and yet appear so generally 'benign'.

If she's guilty, was she this demonstrably reckless in any other areas of her life?? She bought her own home quite young, so it seems unlikely that she was careless with money.

On the surface it would be harder to believe there WASN'T a level of recklessness on display outside of her professional life.

But if she wasn't this brazen in any other facet of her life, what could this tell us about her psychology? E.g. was factitious disorder imposed on another or some kind of hero complex the driving factor here, more than psychopathy etc.?

These patterns seem to reflect certain (alleged) compulsions IMO.

Like, when some ppl are compelled to perform some activities over and over again - however senseless they seem to others.

JMO

I wonder if it may also suggest that the victims were chosen because of their parents, and that's why so many multiples were apparently all attacked.

This focus on the parents could also tie-in with taking a picture of the sympathy card and the facebook searches, as it would be a reminder of her interaction with them, as well as seeking information about how they coped/responded afterwards.

 

[Cluedoneit]

To those who wonder why the consultants didn’t just go to the Police, we’ve just had an incident in a large city hospital trust where doctors were reported to the General Medical Council to try and remove their ability to practice medicine for whistleblowing safety concerns that were seriously harming and killing patients. They were punished for reporting things that were factually dangerous. Would you really put your whole career on the line by going against upper management based on just instinct?

Climate of fear is putting patients at risk, claim whistleblowers

Former and current medics at University Hospitals Birmingham NHS Trust, where 20,000 staff treat more than 2million patients every year, have told of a climate of fear that could lead to patient harm.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[katydid23]

How does a staff base, who is used to losing 1-3 babies a year, go to 15 deaths in one year, without everyone on the unit (including LL) thinking something weird is going on?

I think they did think something weird was going on. But jumping to 'a nurse must be attacking babies with various different lethal methods' is probably not the first explanation they'd jump to.

I'd think they'd wonder it was a viral infection or some kind of toxic substance or mold within the facility----or maybe a major staffing issue of some kind---unprepared, undereducated recruits perhaps? Or problems with medical equipment or nutritional bags, that may have been tainted somehow?

My friend worked as a caregiver in a retirement home and they had a Legionairres disease breakout which took weeks to uncover because the residents were elderly and had underlying illnesses to start with. Several died before they discovered the source.

And I think that was part of the problem here. If you have very premature fragile babies, including twins and triplets, you may first think they had something genetic or inherited that was causing sudden collapses. JMO

 

[katydid23]

I suspect she wants to remain on the ward to see any comings and goings of seniors, unusual meetings, hushed phonecalls etc... surely you would want to be there to read the atmosphere rather than at home wondering if anything has gone on behind your back. Shes sensing that people are onto her, and wants to be there (imo)

Yes, I agree. Also, if the allegations are true, it's possible that the defendant enjoys the 'aftermath' of the tragic incidents. It might be that she feeds off of the intensity and the chaos of alleged incidents and even craves the attention that comes with her being in the spotlight from it, and being a 'victim' of the fateful circumstances. . JMO

 

[ShireChe]

It’s in the title of the link that I posted. In the article, the quote was provided by Dr Ravi Jayaram
“In retrospect, I wished we had bypassed them and gone straight to the police.
“We by no means were playing judge and jury at any point but the association was becoming clearer and clearer and we needed to find the right way to do this. We were in an unprecedented situation”.

I’m sure there is a lot of sorrow and regret.

If the police had become involved some babies’ lives could have been saved, (if the consultants are correct, and LL is guilty). I believe that the consultants acted throughout in good faith (even if they are wrong, and she is innocent).

I do not underestimate the stomach-churning sheer terror of going to the police with a very serious allegation. Sometimes it is all that you can do, because the alternative is much worse.

I don't think it's a situation any consultant would expect to find themself in during their careers. It seems they raised their concerns appropriately and the people employed to deal with things (for whatever reason) decided they didn't want to take action. Of course the consultants may well now be regretting they didn't take things further, but I just don't think you can apportion blame on them. Let's not forget it took the police 3 times to even be able to charge LL

 

[katydid23]

Unsurprisingly, it turns out that Karen Rees also scooped an award from CoC in 2017

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WpP7SsNgvrQ&s=19

I wonder if it was a problem that the doctors and consultants went to a Senior Nurse to complain and accuse another nurse?

Would the Senior Nurse think they were scapegoating nurses as opposed to looking at Doctors as the problem?

 

[marynnu]

Hi folks. Sorry to go off topic, but could someone help me please? I recall someone (apologies, I can't remember who) had a link re. the "missing equipment" for Child O, namely what's needed to drill into a bone for IV access. So much has been discussed since, I can't find it. If you can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it, thank you.

 

[Dotta]

Hi folks. Sorry to go off topic, but could someone help me please? I recall someone (apologies, I can't remember who) had a link re. the "missing equipment" for Child O, namely what's needed to drill into a bone for IV access. So much has been discussed since, I can't find it. If you can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it, thank you.

To a bone?
But it was all in vain - He died.
His short life was only suffering.
RIP now - in Peace at last.

JMO

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

If she's convicted, I think the sentencing will be televised.

 

[katydid23]

Senior hospital executive ignored warnings about killer Lucy Letby

Karen Rees, a duty executive in urgent care in June 2016, insisted there was no evidence against Letby, and refused to take her off duty until the unexplained death of a triplet was investigated.

www.dailymail.co.uk

But when Mr Myers pressed him on why he had not gone to police, he replied: 'You're making this a little more simplistic than it actually was. It's not something anyone wished to consider: considering that a member of your staff is harming babies.

'Actually, the senior nursing staff on the unit didn't believe this could be Lucy until the point – and beyond – when O and P died. None of us (the paediatricians) wanted to believe it either'.

He said the nature of the collapses were 'exceptional', and increasingly staff noticed a failure among babies to respond to resuscitation that would normally bring them round.

'It was also noted that the majority of cases occurred at night when there were fewer staff and parents present…in the early hours…and that a lot of the deteriorations were sudden collapses'.

Despite the concerns of consultants on the unit, there were no obvious 'red flags' being raised either outside the trust or within it.

They eventually decided to bring in a colleague from the Liverpool Women's Hospital to carry out a review in February 2016.

Once that report had been completed the consultants and Ms Powell had sought a meeting with senior executives, including the director of nursing and the director of safety and quality.

Dr Brearey said there was not a single case in the February review that had highlighted a lack of staff.

Questioned again about police not being called in earlier, the registrar replied: 'The reason we didn't go to the police was we wanted to escalate it within the structure of the hospital.

'We wanted the support of the medical director and the executives of the hospital. We were acting on facts, not beliefs. We were trying to escalate appropriately with the facts we had at the time'.

He added: 'I've not been to the police over neonatal deaths and I don't think any other neonatal lead has. I needed executive support. I was doing as much as I could'.

Hospital executive warned three times about Lucy Letby, court is told

First time response of hospital chiefs has been mentioned in trial of neonatal nurse accused of killing seven babies

www.telegraph.co.uk

Dr Brearey said of Ms Rees' refusal to bar Letby from duty on the unit despite her association with the collapses: 'She believed that Nurse Letby could not have done that'.

He went on to elaborate on some of his discussion with the executive, saying: 'I had a conversation suggesting she (Letby) should have the weekend off.

'Karen Rees gave me the impression that she didn't agree and didn't think it was a reasonable request'.

He recalled Letby later walking past him, appearing 'happy and upbeat'.

'She looked me in the eye very confidently'.

 

[katydid23]

Hi folks. Sorry to go off topic, but could someone help me please? I recall someone (apologies, I can't remember who) had a link re. the "missing equipment" for Child O, namely what's needed to drill into a bone for IV access.

I found a reference to it below----but it does not include the name that you are looking for. At least it has the dates the date form was filed so maybe that can help narrow timeline down?

Here is the info on Baby O from the MEDIA INFO ONLY thread:

UK - Lucy Letby Trial - Media, Maps & Timeline *NO DISCUSSION*

Prosecution evidence, March 8th 2023, Day 69 - Tweets https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue Triplets O and P Electronic Evidence cont. We're back after a short break for lunch. Court continuing to be shown sequencing evidence for the case of Child O (these included prescriptions, door swipe...

www.websleuths.com

So much has been discussed since, I can't find it. If you can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it, thank you.

6:42am

Child P dies at 4pm on June 24, and an event for Child Q happens at 9.10am on June 25.
The doctor messages Letby on Monday, June 27 about the care for Child Q, and a Facebook conversation takes place.
A reference is made to clarify paperwork for a prescription for Child O during the resuscitation attempts.

On June 29, a Datix form is filed in which Child O 'suddenly and unexpectedly collapsed'.

Letby files a Datix form on June 30, in which it was recorded that equipment required for a procedure during resuscitation was not available on the unit.
It was clarified in July 2016 Child O did not lose peripheral access.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, March 8

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[notsure]

Even if INNOCENT, I'd think she would not want to continue as before, knowing that co-workers were beginning to talk and be suspicious.

Even if innocent, surely you would have some feeling of fear that you would be falsely accused, after so many babies in your care had sudden collapses.

I'd be wondering if someone was trying to frame me, or if I was having a real bad run of luck. But I wouldn't want to continue putting myself in a position of looking like the guilty party.

Why not take a break, so if the spike in collapses continues, she'd not be the scapegoat anymore?

Alternatively, if innocent, she might think: I did nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, and even if I'm openly accused, I'm confident that no evidence will be found, as I haven't done anything. As for taking a break, I prefer to stay here and care for these babies as I'm highly trained to do.

 

[katydid23]

Alternatively, if innocent, she might think: I did nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, and even if I'm openly accused, I'm confident that no evidence will be found, as I haven't done anything. As for taking a break, I prefer to stay here and care for these babies as I'm highly trained to do.

That^^^ sounds very noble unless I am looking at it in context of babies O, P and Q.

If she is loudly proclaiming that she is a highly trained nurse that prefers to stay and care for these fragile newborns, but they are allegedly dropping like flies, with unexplained collapses, THREE NIGHTS IN A ROW----then it is not quite as noble a proclamation on her part.

Wouldn't she want to take a step back and try and figure out why these babies under her care are inexplicably collapsing?
Even if she did nothing wrong, wouldn't she want to find out the cause of this alleged spike in deaths?

Surely she knew it wasn't a normal pattern usually seen in a neonatal unit.

 

[Tortoise]

Hi folks. Sorry to go off topic, but could someone help me please? I recall someone (apologies, I can't remember who) had a link re. the "missing equipment" for Child O, namely what's needed to drill into a bone for IV access. So much has been discussed since, I can't find it. If you can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it, thank you.

think it was this post, but it's not a link, it's a description

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

or go to thread 13, page 38, post #758

 

[JosieJo]

Hi folks. Sorry to go off topic, but could someone help me please? I recall someone (apologies, I can't remember who) had a link re. the "missing equipment" for Child O, namely what's needed to drill into a bone for IV access. So much has been discussed since, I can't find it. If you can point me in the right direction I'd really appreciate it, thank you.

It was an IO (intraosseous) imo

 

[marynnu]

think it was this post, but it's not a link, it's a description

UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #13

or go to thread 13, page 38, post #758

x

Thank you x

 

[marynnu]

It was an IO (intraosseous) imo

That's exactly it, thanks!

 

[marynnu]

It was an IO (intraosseous) imo

That's exactly it, thanks!

 

[katydid23]

Dan O'Donoghue
@MrDanDonoghue


The trial of nurse Lucy Letby continues at Manchester Crown Court today. Jurors will hear from doctors and medical experts in relation to the death of a baby boy, referred to as Child O, in June 2016. Here's a recap of yesterday's evidence

Lucy Letby: Doctor asked for nurse to be taken off shift - court

A doctor raised concerns about nurse Lucy Letby's presence and the deaths of babies, her trial hears.

www.bbc.com

Dr Brearey, who was head of the hospital's neonatal unit, asked for Ms Letby to be stood down after the deaths of two baby boys, who were part of a set of triplets, in June 2016.
The court has previously heard that the first boy, referred to as Child O, was in good condition and stable up until the afternoon of 23 June when he suffered a "remarkable deterioration" and died.

His brother, Child P, died just over 24 hours later after also being attacked by Ms Letby, it is alleged.
The prosecution claims Ms Letby murdered the boys by injecting air into their bloodstreams.



Mr Myers put it to Dr Brearey that if there had been a basis for his suspicions he would have gone to the police.
Dr Brearey said he and his colleagues had been trying to "escalate appropriately" and had needed "executive support" to decide the "correct plan of action going forward".

The doctor added: "It's not something anyone wanted to consider, that a member of staff is harming babies.

"The senior nursing staff on the unit didn't believe this could be true."
He said with every "unusual" episode of baby collapse between June 2015 and June 2016 there had been "increasing suspicion" about Ms Letby, which led him to eventually escalate his concerns and request she be taken off shift.

Ms Letby, 33, originally from Hereford, denies a total of 22 charges.

 

[Cardgame]

Also just in general regarding the doctors' actions, lets not forget that day-to-day these doctors are day-to-day engaged in treating and life saving ALL of their other patients.

One reason for passing the problem to management is because they don't have time to 'watch' a nurse who may or may not be causing a problem. There's no budget available to just 'give' someone the job of 'watching' someone else. And who would that be? Everyone's role is already critical. These are high intensity surroundings where people are working twelve hour exhausting shifts making life/death decisions every single day.

I honestly think it's extremely unfair to say that the doctors or frontline medical staff 'should have done more'. IMO they were on the front line, and relying on those who sit in offices all day to come up with the solution to the problem they had been presented with. If that isn't the job of those in management positions, then what are they getting paid for? Just to turn a blind eye?!