UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #19

[WaxLyrical]

On the BBC lunchtime news bulletin, the reporter stated that LL "spoke quietly." Would you call that subjective? He appears to have got away with it, though, so I think it was fine.

She was told by the judge to speak up, so not subjective.

 

[Jazmania]

Sounds from the prosecution the other day, the 257 cover much of her career - i.e. not nearly every hand over from the year June 2015 - June 2016, only some are from then.

I see mention today of her diary recording her moving home, if you just shove important docs that need secure disposal (which you don't at the time have a shredder for or don't get round to doing) to one side, then like me, you probably move house and have a box of documents, or a bigger moving box containing assorted stuff that you know can't simply be thrown out (thus labelled "Keep") and needs going through at some point. I'd guess the 31 are just the ones since the last time she emptied her bag out and dealt with them. And I'd guess the 17 don't relate to 17 babies, but 17 shifts where she was caring for most likely the last few babies.

Like others, I'm struggling to picture this bag - how are the handover sheets concealed within it?

I think it was confirmed that the 257 handover notes were for the period June 15 - June 16. But may be wrong. This would be pretty pivotal. As if there were no handover notes from the period before, then she must have figured out how to dispose of them at some point.

I agree that I do often shove things into bags on moving day as typically I'm rushed and just need to get stuff out. So don't think this indicates much.

The 17 handover notes refer to 13 of the babies involved in the case I believe. I think those cases generally span the whole year so couldn't have been just left in the bag from her last few shifts. They must have been sorted into that bag.

 

[esther43]

Less uncomfortable than I would were it a Commodore 64!!!

On the last point; I don't believe that she didn't have a weird affinity to these notes. She clearly does to have that many. I'm not sure it's evidence of murder, though. I do think there is something in her that she can't address as to why she has them all. Same goes for the rest of her seemingly obsessional traits.

Yikes . I'm glad I don't have those 'man problems' :-0
It is good to keep an open mind I guess.
and .... she doesn't usually swear, which goes along way in both of our books I'm sure

 

[notsure]

She was told by the judge to speak up, so not subjective.

So those interesting snippets about voice, etc., may be acceptable after all.

 

[Becci]

If g there's more chance of her shredding the lot.
If she's as clever & cunning as it's been made to appear then shredding potential evidence would make more sense ?

 

[WaxLyrical]

This makes no sense; if she’s getting changed from work with her shoes and lunch and documents etc every time she has a shift, and those notes are in that bag (or whatever bag she is using), she would surely see those notes every time she got her lunch out, changed her uniform, shoes.. unless she is completely blindfolded everytime she puts her hand in that bag I fail to see how she could not have known.

If they are just left stuffed in the uniform pocket as she’s taken it off, it sounds like she’s emptying the pockets at home to wash it, and putting those notes back into the bag- but essentially, still wondering back and forth to work with all these documents in the same bag and it doesn’t cross her mind that while she’s grabbing her lunch or whatever, to take them to the designated waste whilst she’s on hospital site.
I’m really not buying this at all.
JMO

She was quite clearly hanging onto them in my view. For what reason is the real question though. JMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I the distinction is more between being professional/ unprofessional rather than harmless/ damaging.
Imagine you went to the Dr one day and he popped a spectrum down your penis and then Facebook searched you nine times. Would you be comfortable with that?
Re handover notes, she's already explained that she didn't have a 'weird relationship' with them.
They 'meant nothing'

If he was a penis doc I would be very concerned if it was a nurse present in the care of my baby on a NNU less so and ofc would depend on the reason. there must be thousands of maternity and NNU staff in the uk I would expect some of them to be inquisitive about the baby for At least some time after. Big difference between a baby and a penis IMO. The only person I expect to be attached to my point is me.

I think the handover notes just shows a weird attachment with the attachment simply being a unwillingness to dispose of them. Like a hoarder, no logical reason for hoarding stuff they just don’t FEEL like getting rid of it. So don’t even after they have forgotten what it was that they didn’t dispose of.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I think it was confirmed that the 257 handover notes were for the period June 15 - June 16. But may be wrong. This would be pretty pivotal. As if there were no handover notes from the period before, then she must have figured out how to dispose of them at some point.

I agree that I do often shove things into bags on moving day as typically I'm rushed and just need to get stuff out. So don't think this indicates much.

The 17 handover notes refer to 13 of the babies involved in the case I believe. I think those cases generally span the whole year so couldn't have been just left in the bag from her last few shifts. They must have been sorted into that bag.

if it transpires the 257 sheets spanned many years, with only the 30 odd in the Morrisons bag relating to the relevant period, then this is massive and really undermines the handover sheet evidence. JMO.

I was also of the understanding that the 257 related to the year in question.

Would be good to get some clarification on this.

 

[Dotta]

 

[esther43]

I wouldn't know anything about it and it's not something I waste time thinking about - but I think it's safe to presume that any doctor of an age that uses Facebook will occasionally look up patients and perhaps some of the doctors and nurses you've encountered have looked you up. You can safely presume, whether or not they are on Facebook, that you have been discussed with the doctors colleagues in a non-clinical context. These are normal human behaviours. Doctors and nurses who say this is always inappropriate and does not normally happen, might be technically correct on the first point, but are simply not being included on the second.

Noone can say that it doesn't happen. But in my experience chat about parents in the NICU staff room among drs would usually be around things the parents had told them in clinic etc.. not what they found out from Facebook.

 

[Sweeper2000]

It would be interesting to hear the length of time between ll having access to her house and her belongings and the police interview. I can totally see someone forgetting about something one had bought two years after not seeing it and two years before being asked about it. The bank statements shredded doesn’t mean much necessarily. We get bank statements once a month that might be the first and last time she had used it and maybe was bought specifically for the bank statements.

 

[ConcernedThirdParty]

I think it was confirmed that the 257 handover notes were for the period June 15 - June 16. But may be wrong. This would be pretty pivotal. As if there were no handover notes from the period before, then she must have figured out how to dispose of them at some point.

I agree that I do often shove things into bags on moving day as typically I'm rushed and just need to get stuff out. So don't think this indicates much.

The 17 handover notes refer to 13 of the babies involved in the case I believe. I think those cases generally span the whole year so couldn't have been just left in the bag from her last few shifts. They must have been sorted into that bag.

That would probably be more than she worked shifts in that time - normal 5 day week is at most 232 shifts a year in the UK. Nurses work 12 hour shifts normally, so fewer days total. Unless you get more than one "handover note" per shift.

Sounds then like the 31 notes are post-Ibiza and cover most of the year, with the remaining 226 most likely being older going back several years. 10 in her bedroom cupboard at her parents home - I'd guess the other 216 are not all together but scattered in groups throughout boxes and piles of paperwork from different times she emptied out her bag or potentially started but didn't finish sorting through it - that's what my filing system looks like anyway.

 

[esther43]

If he was a penis doc I would be very concerned if it was a nurse present in the care of my baby on a NNU less so and ofc would depend on the reason. there must be thousands of maternity and NNU staff in the uk I would expect some of them to be inquisitive about the baby for At least some time after. Big difference between a baby and a penis IMO.

I think the handover notes just shows a weird attachment with the attachment simply being a unwillingness to dispose of them. Like a hoarder, no logical reason for hoarding stuff they just don’t FEEL like getting rid of it. So don’t even after they have forgotten what it was that they didn’t dispose of.

Maybe you think like this because you are unaware that the neonatal mother sits by the cotside expressing milk from her naked breasts, often whilst bleeding and crying simultaneously.

 

[WaxLyrical]

That would probably be more than she worked shifts in that time - normal 5 day week is at most 232 shifts a year in the UK. Nurses work 12 hour shifts normally, so fewer days total. Unless you get more than one "handover note" per shift.

Sounds then like the 31 notes are post-Ibiza and cover most of the year, with the remaining 226 most likely being older going back several years. 10 in her bedroom cupboard at her parents home - I'd guess the other 216 are not all together but scattered in groups throughout boxes and piles of paperwork from different times she emptied out her bag or potentially started but didn't finish sorting through it - that's what my filing system looks like anyway.

Just to clarify, are you just guessing that the 257 notes spanned several years? Or have you seen this within the evidence. My understanding is they all relate to the period 2015-16.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Maybe you think like this because you are unaware that the neonatal mother sits by the cotside expressing milk from her naked breasts, often whilst bleeding and crying simultaneously.

After that image (unwanted) I would agree but the attachment isn’t to the mother, it’s to the baby and the family. Everyone loves babies and cares for them and that’s what the attachment is. Potentially and imo.

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

I don't think she's going to cope well with the prosecution's questioning.

 

[Sundial]

After that image (unwanted) I would agree but the attachment isn’t to the mother, it’s to the baby and the family. Everyone loves babies and cares for them and that’s what the attachment is. Potentially and imo.

I disagree. Maternity and neonatal care is predominantly mother birthing and then her child. Mother is typically in most cases the primary caregiver. Family (extended beyond that) is secondary.
JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

I don't think she's going to cope well with the prosecution's questioning.

I don’t think she will struggle at all. For instance the fb searches 9 times over many months is nothing even approaching obsessive. If she hasn’t done anything wrong she’s got nothing to fear and that’s why I think she has taken the stand.

 

[Anxala]

On the BBC lunchtime news bulletin, the reporter stated that LL "spoke quietly." Would you call that subjective? He appears to have got away with it, though, so I think it was fine.

It was also reported that she spoke clearly. Quietly and clearly are perfectly legit objective descriptions of how someone is coming across. Subjective would be more if the reporter went on to suggest what her 'quiet and clear' delivery might mean.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I think it was confirmed that the 257 handover notes were for the period June 15 - June 16. But may be wrong. This would be pretty pivotal. As if there were no handover notes from the period before, then she must have figured out how to dispose of them at some point.

I agree that I do often shove things into bags on moving day as typically I'm rushed and just need to get stuff out. So don't think this indicates much.

The 17 handover notes refer to 13 of the babies involved in the case I believe. I think those cases generally span the whole year so couldn't have been just left in the bag from her last few shifts. They must have been sorted into that bag.

I'm wondering (thinking out loud, really) but did something change in the way these sheets we produced or distributed at the time of the earliest ones she had which meant it was easier for her to keep hold of them if she does indeed have some sort of compulsive issue going on? I mean something like more of them being printed - maybe changing from a central one posted on a board to giving out individual copies? Perhaps a change in the way they were disposed of or something?