GUILTY UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #8

[LadyEdgeworth]

Hang on, PMs said ’natural causes’ ? On all the babies or just some?

I think just some, as we know at least one baby did not have a PM as it was discussed in court and apologised for.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe it is she who is stupid? Seriously. Maybe she's one of those types who is pretty gormless and makes tons of errors but doesn't stand out enough for anyone to notice until it's all gone horribly wrong. The whole 'standing there doing nothing' etc. Could it be fairly well masked incompetence, ignorance, error, and shoddy careless reckless workmanship?

I don't think so. JMO

She was highly regarded and well respected and had been promoted to a higher level and was a higher rank then most of the others. Doctors were quoted as saying they had confidence in her experience and competence, which is why she was usually designated to room 1, caring for the sickest and most fragile babies.

I don't think it can be labeled shoddy workmanship or incompetence to sneak insulin into the lines to poison babies. Or to push air into the hoses, multiple times. I think these alleged actions were purposeful and sneaky as opposed to being accidental or sloppy. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Yes but I’m trying to figure stuff out that people haven‘t raised so far and I wonder, regardless off her academic studies if at work she simply doesn’t perform, gets stuff badly wrong, makes poor calls, doesn’t listen, messes up, is clumsy, as opposed to being a cruel and heartless cold blooded killer.

If a nurse or a doctor begins making clumsy mistakes and poor calls, the next shift makes note of the errors. And she would not have been promoted to rank 6 and given the responsibility of the most fragile, critical newborns if she had been making clumsy, poor decisions during the previous years. JMO

 

[Kemug]

If LL is found innocent (I doubt she will be, but it's possible), I wonder what she will do? I can't imagine she would want to go back to nursing, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to employ her as a nurse to be honest.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

If LL is found innocent (I doubt she will be, but it's possible), I wonder what she will do? I can't imagine she would want to go back to nursing, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to employ her as a nurse to be honest.

She'd have to change her name, and move as a minimum I think. I wouldn't have her back as a nurse even if she is entirely innocent purely from all the weird unprofessionalism and obsessive behaviour we've heard about her. Would anyone want to be treated by a nurse who will still be facebook stalking them two years later?

 

[katydid23]

If guilty, it's astonishing that no suspicions were followed up at this time, which would have prevented further incidents from happening.

This baby was given only a 5% chance of surviving because she was so premature and so tiny. So I think when the medical issues began, it might have been somewhat expected. She had a chronic lung condition and needed full time oxygen, when she first arrived.

When life threatening issues are happening, each shift of nurses and doctors are just focused on resuscitation and battling the urgent situation, rather than doing an over all investigation of the staff and protocol. JMO

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Can't find a live report today, you'd think since we had basically nothing last week they might want to have someone there every day this week?

 

[Supernovae]

Can't find a live report today, you'd think since we had basically nothing last week they might want to have someone there every day this week?

Looks like it's Dan O'Donoghue:

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/with_replies

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Looks like it's Dan O'Donoghue:

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue/with_replies

Ah I can't go on twitter at work I'm afraid so no updates from me today

 

[Dotta]

It seems Jurors will still hear evidence about the collapse/s of Baby G.

 

[Jazmania]

Yes but I’m trying to figure stuff out that people haven‘t raised so far and I wonder, regardless off her academic studies if at work she simply doesn’t perform, gets stuff badly wrong, makes poor calls, doesn’t listen, messes up, is clumsy, as opposed to being a cruel and heartless cold blooded killer.

Perhaps some of the stuff could be viewed as incompetence - standing by not doing anything when babies are getting ill, not knowing how to calculate drug doses etc. But from her texts it certainly seems she believes she is extremely competent, and perhaps more so than her colleagues. Offering diagnoses of babies when no such diagnoses had been presented by a doctor, shouting at and reprimanding junior nurses for seeking help, ignoring senior nurses instructions and doing her own thing, as if she thinks she knows better...

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

At Manchester Crown Court again today for the trial of nurse Lucy Letby. Jurors will continue to hear evidence about the collapse(s) of Child G - who the Crown say Ms Letby tried to murder on three occasions in 2015

Medical expert Dr Sandie Bohin is continuing to give evidence today. She tells the court that it was 'extraordinary' for a baby the size of Child G - she was 2kg - to vomit as far as she did.. Reminder of yesterday's evidence Lucy Letby: No natural cause for baby's vomiting, doctor tells trial

She said: 'She would have had to have exerted a huge amount of force to vomit over the side of the cot and onto the floor and chair…that's surprising given she was only 2kg'

Dr Bohin is taking the court back through Child G's medical notes and spelling out the infant's early feeding history and how that developed. The notes show that through summer 2015 she was gradually improving

Dr Bohin makes the point that medics were considering giving Child G immunisations around the time of her collapse. She said the baby 'must have been well and stable' as medics 'wouldn’t consider giving immunisations unless a baby is absolutely stable'

On the incident of 7 September, Dr Bohin tells the court that Child G 'must at some point have been given an excessive amount of milk to projectile vomit and have a residual 45ml in stomach'

Ben Myers KC, defending, is now questioning Dr Bohin. He is taking the court back over Child G's medical notes from June 2015. Dr Bohin agrees at this time the premature girl was as 'sick as you could possibly be'

Mr Myers is looking notes that she had a discoloured abdomen. Dr Bohin says that at this stage the girl would have weighed just 500g and there would be no subcutaneous fat - so could see blood vessels (hence discolouration normal)

We're continuing to view notes on Child G from the first few weeks after her birth. They show she was on steroids (as she was having trouble with ventilation). Bleeding noticed at one point was put down to a 'probable pulmonary haemorrhage'

Dr Bohin notes that Child G had a low platelet count, which could explain the bleeding. She says 'certainly in a baby this fragile' a pulmonary haemorrhage could be lethal - states if it was indeed such a haemorrhage it was 'very mild'

Mr Myers is taking the court through a note from the end of July 2105 which showed a 'significant' desaturation before Child G was due to travel from Arrowe Park to the Countess of Chester.

Dr Bohin agrees that the infant was not well at this stage, 'she was still very young, still very vulnerable and prone to all sorts of complications due to her prematurity'

Mr Myers is making the point that, as an expert witness, Dr Bohin is allowed to hear all the evidence as it is presented to the court. She rejects suggestion that her conclusions have 'come from a dialogue with Dr Evans' (the other medical expert in this case)

Court has just been read a statement from Countess of Chester medical engineer Stuart Eccles. This was on the ventilation equipment at the hospital. Yesterday we heard doctors believed there could have been a problem with a machine as Child G was struggling to breath

Service records show that there was no such issues reported on 7 September 2015. He said the machines on the unit were 'very reliable'

Police intelligence analyst Kate Tyndall is now back in the witness box. She is taking the court through sequencing evidence.

After Child G fell ill, she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital where she recovered over a number of days. On 16 September she was transferred back to the Countess of Chester. On 21 September, the Crown say there was second incident involving Ms Letby

 

[Dotta]

"After Child G fell ill, she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital where she recovered over a number of days. On 16 September she was transferred back to the Countess of Chester. On 21 September, the Crown say there was second incident involving Ms Letby."

Why didn't Baby G stay there???
What was the point of driving her to and fro?

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

"After Child G fell ill, she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital where she recovered over a number of days. On 16 September she was transferred back to the Countess of Chester. On 21 September, the Crown say there was second incident involving Ms Letby."

Why didn't Baby G stay there???
What was the point of driving her to and fro?

Arrow Park is an acute hospital, basically they're made for short-term care if you've got a severe injury or illness or recovering from surgery. They're not made to stay long-term, so Baby G was sent there to try help her get better quickly and then she theoretically would be stable back at CoC and stay longer term until she could go home

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Perhaps some of the stuff could be viewed as incompetence - standing by not doing anything when babies are getting ill, not knowing how to calculate drug doses etc. But from her texts it certainly seems she believes she is extremely competent, and perhaps more so than her colleagues. Offering diagnoses of babies when no such diagnoses had been presented by a doctor, shouting at and reprimanding junior nurses for seeking help, ignoring senior nurses instructions and doing her own thing, as if she thinks she knows better...

Exactly all of this stuff is what I'm talking about - I'm sure at some time we've all worked with a manager or colleague who displayed all these traits and was completely impossible to work with. The sort of person who when you realise what they're doing really really badly gets under your skin. As much as it's explained by narcissism and fronting situations out, sitting behind it is profound lack of capability and skills. With those type of people I mean. The sort of person who when something serious goes down stands still doing nothing as if in a daze instead of doing what you're trained to do - pull a lever or push an alarm or whatever it is. The sort of person who when directly asked if they're comfortable with taking responsibility or job roles will say absolutely yes I'm trained and experienced because they're delusional. With LL we don't know enough yet, I'm just floating the idea of incompetence and horrifically poor performance.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

Exactly all of this stuff is what I'm talking about - I'm sure at some time we've all worked with a manager or colleague who displayed all these traits and was completely impossible to work with. The sort of person who when you realise what they're doing really really badly gets under your skin. As much as it's explained by narcissism and fronting situations out, sitting behind it is profound lack of capability and skills. With those type of people I mean. The sort of person who when something serious goes down stands still doing nothing as if in a daze instead of doing what you're trained to do - pull a lever or push an alarm or whatever it is. The sort of person who when directly asked if they're comfortable with taking responsibility or job roles will say absolutely yes I'm trained and experienced because they're delusional. With LL we don't know enough yet, I'm just floating the idea of incompetence and horrifically poor performance.

You've got to be extremely incompetent to inject insulin into a TPN bag (allegedly) or allegedly inject air, or feed babies so much milk they projectile vomit. Then continue to be so incompetent you do it more than once, then say you didn't.

MOO

 

[Dotta]

You've got to be extremely incompetent to inject insulin into a TPN bag (allegedly) or allegedly inject air, or feed babies so much milk they projectile vomit. Then continue to be so incompetent you do it more than once, then say you didn't.

MOO

It was even reported that 1 baby was (allegedly) smothered (with a pillow??)

Well, if true, it is altogether another level.

Moo

 

[Tortoise]

https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

After Child G fell ill, she was transferred to Arrowe Park Hospital where she recovered over a number of days. On 16 September she was transferred back to the Countess of Chester. On 21 September, the Crown say there was second incident involving Ms Letby

The Crown actually say there were two incidents on 21st Sep.

Count 7

Charged with attempted murder of baby G on September 7 2015

Count 8

Charged with attempted murder of baby G on September 21 2015

Count 9

Charged with attempted murder of baby G on September 21 2015

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

You've got to be extremely incompetent to inject insulin into a TPN bag (allegedly) or allegedly inject air, or feed babies so much milk they projectile vomit. Then continue to be so incompetent you do it more than once, then say you didn't.

MOO

I agree but in the absence of knowing more I'm holding space for the notion that someone who doesn't follow instruction, goes 'off piste', thinks they know better, takes their own instruction, doesn't ask for help, doesn't refer to management guidelines, is delusional about their own knowledge and skills, is trying to appear perfect and getting it all wrong, is in denial about their lack (usually backed up with possibly unconscious profound feelings of shame and inferiority), might be the same sort of person who makes bizarre and disastrous decisions that leave a trail of destruction. No right minded person can relate as they think well 'I would never do that' and 'we've been trained not to do that'.

I've worked with people like that and I had an ex-friend like it, when you suss out what they're doing you can never unsee it but they really fly under the radar in many situations and circumstances. There's people all around them doing mop up jobs for the insanity they leave in their wake and yet no-one seems to confront them. It's mind-blowing. My ex-friend took her own life in the end. Nobody ever did confront her to the bitter end. But are those type of people doing it 'on purpose' in order to cause harm, no. Harm is not their end goal at all, it's collateral damage to the fake image. They're profoundly mentally unwell with denial, delusion, narcissistic problems.

Was LL really 'faking it' and absolutely terrible at her job but nobody called it until Dr J bravely spoke out like the little boy in the Emporers New Clothes?

JMO MOO

 

[Tortoise]

It was even reported that 1 baby was (allegedly) smothered (with a pillow??)

Well, if true, it is altogether another level.

Moo

No pillows, I would think, in a neonatal cot.

opening speeches say

Baby J -
He said that it was “of concern and consistent with some form of obstruction of her airways, such as smothering”.
The symptoms of a seizure suggested oxygen deprived to the brain.

Baby M -
Medical expert Dr Dewi Evans said the rapid recovery would not have meant infection or a lung problem was likely. His conclusion was airway obstruction or air embolus.