UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[marynnu]

Surely there wouldn't have been random unaccompanied children wandering round the unit?

Not generally, but they have been known to wander round a room!

 

[Marantz4250b]

but what about the 298? other sheets?

( might have been 257 sheets total)

Well, yes, that's what I was getting at in my post. Keeping one hand over sheet, from her very first shift, is totally normal, in my opinion. Yes, having a total of 257 is very abnormal but it's one of the few very abnormal things about her life, imo. In almost every other respect she is/was completely normal, it's the combination of all these factors and the hindsight we now benefit from which makes things look weird.

She's a complete puzzle to me. She's had an absolutely charmed life, clearly never wanted for anything in her life, seemingly had her whole life planned out with family, kids, etc. I just don't get it, I really don't. To be honest, I'm now even doubting the "I was one of the unpopular, geeky kids that no one liked" stories because what we now know is that she seemed to be far from unpopular.

Since her conviction we've seen plenty more photos of her socialising with friends from the time of being a teenager (think the earliest photo was a school trip when she was 14 or something) and she's always around people. There are photos of her at at least two hen do's and she hardly seems to be the unpopular one who no-one wants to associate with - in all the cases she's right in the foreground nearest the camera and right in the centre in another.

I became interested (border-line obsessed) with this case when she was charged in November 2020. The reason I was so fascinated, is because on the limited info and pics we had she did not present as any serial killer I'd ever heard about before. I made no secret of the fact that I thought she was not guilty at the time because she seemed nothing like anyone convicted of similar. All of her pictures featured other people and, what I think was significant, was that these pictures were not her pictures, they were taken, and posted on social media, by other people. That, I think, is very significant as she's not some loner who's been shunned by her classmates and colleagues all her life. People enjoyed being in her company and posting pics with her, tagging her and themselves in them is basically telling the world "this person is someone I like and want to associate myself with them".

The whole "I was one of the unpopular kids" looks very like it's just more of the Lucy Letby BS, to me. It feels like it's her cultivating her image to give some sort of impression of "overcoming adversity" in becoming the beloved nurse worshipped by her family and peers and suchlike.

She seems to have barely spent a day on her own in her life judging from the reporting of her work and social diary. She's going to spend the rest of her life doing the exact opposite and I imagine it will be utter hell for her - I almost feel sorry for her.

 

[marynnu]

Well, yes, that's what I was getting at in my post. Keeping one hand over sheet, from her very first shift, is totally normal, in my opinion. Yes, having a total of 257 is very abnormal but it's one of the few very abnormal things about her life, imo. In almost every other respect she is/was completely normal, it's the combination of all these factors and the hindsight we now benefit from which makes things look weird.

She's a complete puzzle to me. She's had an absolutely charmed life, clearly never wanted for anything in her life, seemingly had her whole life planned out with family, kids, etc. I just don't get it, I really don't. To be honest, I'm now even doubting the "I was one of the unpopular, geeky kids that no one liked" stories because what we now know is that she seemed to be far from unpopular.

Since her conviction we've seen plenty more photos of her socialising with friends from the time of being a teenager (think the earliest photo was a school trip when she was 14 or something) and she's always around people. There are photos of her at at least two hen do's and she hardly seems to be the unpopular one who no-one wants to associate with - in all the cases she's right in the foreground nearest the camera and right in the centre in another.

I became interested (border-line obsessed) with this case when she was charged in November 2020. The reason I was so fascinated, is because on the limited info and pics we had she did not present as any serial killer I'd ever heard about before. I made no secret of the fact that I thought she was not guilty at the time because she seemed nothing like anyone convicted of similar. All of her pictures featured other people and, what I think was significant, was that these pictures were not her pictures, they were taken, and posted on social media, by other people. That, I think, is very significant as she's not some loner who's been shunned by her classmates and colleagues all her life. People enjoyed being in her company and posting pics with her, tagging her and themselves in them is basically telling the world "this person is someone I like and want to associate myself with them".

The whole "I was one of the unpopular kids" looks very like it's just more of the Lucy Letby BS, to me. It feels like it's her cultivating her image to give some sort of impression of "overcoming adversity" in becoming the beloved nurse worshipped by her family and peers and suchlike.

She seems to have barely spent a day on her own in her life judging from the reporting of her work and social diary. She's going to spend the rest of her life doing the exact opposite and I imagine it will be utter hell for her - I almost feel sorry for her.

Speaking as an unpopular loner, it seems to me that sociable, popular people struggle with this the most as they are more needy and rather naive. They are inclined to judge someone by superficial charm & how they are seen by others, which for me is completely irrelevant. It's a big mistake as this is how some of the most noxious people in our society are allowed to get away with terrible things.

 

[cottonweaver]

Well, yes, that's what I was getting at in my post. Keeping one hand over sheet, from her very first shift, is totally normal, in my opinion. Yes, having a total of 257 is very abnormal but it's one of the few very abnormal things about her life, imo. In almost every other respect she is/was completely normal, it's the combination of all these factors and the hindsight we now benefit from which makes things look weird.

She's a complete puzzle to me. She's had an absolutely charmed life, clearly never wanted for anything in her life, seemingly had her whole life planned out with family, kids, etc. I just don't get it, I really don't. To be honest, I'm now even doubting the "I was one of the unpopular, geeky kids that no one liked" stories because what we now know is that she seemed to be far from unpopular.

Since her conviction we've seen plenty more photos of her socialising with friends from the time of being a teenager (think the earliest photo was a school trip when she was 14 or something) and she's always around people. There are photos of her at at least two hen do's and she hardly seems to be the unpopular one who no-one wants to associate with - in all the cases she's right in the foreground nearest the camera and right in the centre in another.

I became interested (border-line obsessed) with this case when she was charged in November 2020. The reason I was so fascinated, is because on the limited info and pics we had she did not present as any serial killer I'd ever heard about before. I made no secret of the fact that I thought she was not guilty at the time because she seemed nothing like anyone convicted of similar. All of her pictures featured other people and, what I think was significant, was that these pictures were not her pictures, they were taken, and posted on social media, by other people. That, I think, is very significant as she's not some loner who's been shunned by her classmates and colleagues all her life. People enjoyed being in her company and posting pics with her, tagging her and themselves in them is basically telling the world "this person is someone I like and want to associate myself with them".

The whole "I was one of the unpopular kids" looks very like it's just more of the Lucy Letby BS, to me. It feels like it's her cultivating her image to give some sort of impression of "overcoming adversity" in becoming the beloved nurse worshipped by her family and peers and suchlike.

She seems to have barely spent a day on her own in her life judging from the reporting of her work and social diary. She's going to spend the rest of her life doing the exact opposite and I imagine it will be utter hell for her - I almost feel sorry for her.

I do understand where you're coming from and she's also a puzzle to me but we still don't know a lot about her. ( Public didn't find out about BAllitt's childhood personality change or Shipman's drug addiction til much later. ( This is still only week 2 for LL, reporting restrictions lifted. Nobody's talking, even off the record. Most of colleagues who are speaking are retired consultants. Her closest pals in Hereford unlikely to go to press when they feel she's victim of a police conspiracy )

Re that first handover sheet. Look at it another way. She's brand new, freshly trained and - according to her NNU manager E. Powell- always pursuing training opps, an eye for detail, willing to whistle-blow on anyone else's mistakes or bad practice etc.
Being freshly trained she will have known from Univ & from CoC why it's illegal, unethical and risks discipline ( also NMCouncil) but she did it anyway.
( She's not an older nurse who practised before law changed or somebody who just got sloppy over time)

ETA Re the other paras, don't forget that the loner, non-integrated SK is a stereotype & as for the FBook group photos, maybe she puts herself at the centre? That might link to your interesting point in bold, above.
+ has she ever said that she was one of the unpopular kids? I could've missed it having not followed case since outset or maybe am taking you too literally on that point.
BTW re how busy she was, or wasn't, she said to Myers that she had lots of hobbies but all I ever heard about was going to dance class nights w Minna.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I imagine God would be hiding in a cupboard.

Well, yes, that's what I was getting at in my post. Keeping one hand over sheet, from her very first shift, is totally normal, in my opinion. Yes, having a total of 257 is very abnormal but it's one of the few very abnormal things about her life, imo. In almost every other respect she is/was completely normal, it's the combination of all these factors and the hindsight we now benefit from which makes things look weird.

She's a complete puzzle to me. She's had an absolutely charmed life, clearly never wanted for anything in her life, seemingly had her whole life planned out with family, kids, etc. I just don't get it, I really don't. To be honest, I'm now even doubting the "I was one of the unpopular, geeky kids that no one liked" stories because what we now know is that she seemed to be far from unpopular.

Since her conviction we've seen plenty more photos of her socialising with friends from the time of being a teenager (think the earliest photo was a school trip when she was 14 or something) and she's always around people. There are photos of her at at least two hen do's and she hardly seems to be the unpopular one who no-one wants to associate with - in all the cases she's right in the foreground nearest the camera and right in the centre in another.

I became interested (border-line obsessed) with this case when she was charged in November 2020. The reason I was so fascinated, is because on the limited info and pics we had she did not present as any serial killer I'd ever heard about before. I made no secret of the fact that I thought she was not guilty at the time because she seemed nothing like anyone convicted of similar. All of her pictures featured other people and, what I think was significant, was that these pictures were not her pictures, they were taken, and posted on social media, by other people. That, I think, is very significant as she's not some loner who's been shunned by her classmates and colleagues all her life. People enjoyed being in her company and posting pics with her, tagging her and themselves in them is basically telling the world "this person is someone I like and want to associate myself with them".

The whole "I was one of the unpopular kids" looks very like it's just more of the Lucy Letby BS, to me. It feels like it's her cultivating her image to give some sort of impression of "overcoming adversity" in becoming the beloved nurse worshipped by her family and peers and suchlike.

She seems to have barely spent a day on her own in her life judging from the reporting of her work and social diary. She's going to spend the rest of her life doing the exact opposite and I imagine it will be utter hell for her - I almost feel sorry for her.

Regarding her socialising, I should say she seemed to have a very active and lively social life - something that was openly stated by the judge in court.

She must have had a lot of friends and she still even has the loyal ones who refuse to believe she's guilty to the point where they're so fond of her they openly speak to the press.

It has always been my constant bafflement that extreme Narcissistic people have tons of really amazing friends and a whirlwind social life. It is the opinion of most experts that Narcissists are totally 'Co-dependent' in this regard too as they can't spend any time alone and have to be constantly in the mechanism of engaging and utilising others.

I don't think it could be accurate for anyone to say she was some weirdo loner singleton as much as it would be an easier to accept proposition. She was clearly perfectly socially adept and had a wide friendship circle.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Speaking as an unpopular loner, it seems to me that sociable, popular people struggle with this the most as they are more needy and rather naive. They are inclined to judge someone by superficial charm & how they are seen by others, which for me is completely irrelevant. It's a big mistake as this is how some of the most noxious people in our society are allowed to get away with terrible things.

As an introverted loner, I wholly agree with your sentiment.

I keep wondering when I'm going to switch and suddenly murder a bunch of people as apparently I've got the right profile for something dreadful, according to the movies.

I agree with you that the extreme Cluster Bs (Antisocial Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder) are 'winning' in our western culture and society at the moment. They're manipulative, charming, over-confident, machiavellian, exploitative, and have zero conscience.

 

[Dotta]

Not generally, but they have been known to wander round a room!

Kids are kids
Don't I know? hahaha

 

[marynnu]

As an introverted loner, I wholly agree with your sentiment.

I keep wondering when I'm going to switch and suddenly murder a bunch of people as apparently I've got the right profile for something dreadful, according to the movies.

I agree with you that the extreme Cluster Bs (Antisocial Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder) are 'winning' in our western culture and society at the moment. They're manipulative, charming, over-confident, machiavellian, exploitative, and have zero conscience.

Good job we've never met, God only knows where that would lead.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I do understand where you're coming from and she's also a puzzle to me but we still don't know a lot about her. ( Public didn't find out about BAllitt's childhood personality change or Shipman's drug addiction til much later. ( This is still only week 2 for LL, reporting restrictions lifted. Nobody's talking, even off the record. Most of colleagues who are speaking are retired consultants. Her closest pals in Hereford unlikely to go to press when they feel she's victim of a police conspiracy )

Re that first handover sheet. Look at it another way. She's brand new, freshly trained and - according to her NNU manager E. Powell- always pursuing training opps, an eye for detail, willing to whistle-blow on anyone else's mistakes or bad practice etc.
Being freshly trained she will have known from Univ & from CoC why it's illegal, unethical and risks discipline ( also NMCouncil) but she did it anyway.
( She's not an older nurse who practised before law changed or somebody who just got sloppy)

I absolutely appreciate all that and hear what you're saying.

This isn't week two as far as the reporters and media are concerned, though - it's week two hundred and seventy since she was arrested on 3rd July 2018. They've had more than five years to dig up every piece of dirt they could possibly find on her; they will have approached her entire family including any distant, extended family members they can find; everyone she was at school and collage with; her teachers and lecturers; everyone she's ever interacted with on FB - and certainly everyone in all the FB photos - and literally everyone they thought had the slightest connection to her.

In all that time they've reported the words of one chap who was the ex-boyfriend of her friend who says she was "a bit socially awkward", which for an early 20's woman these days is not uncommon, and her friend Dawn who was in the BBC documentary* who seems to be the source of the "we were were known as the mis-match crowd" (or however she put it) comments. I am completely convinced that, were there some tragic back story to her life, a childhood of abuse or her being an abuser, or her exhibiting deeply weird or disturbing behavior then we'd have heard about it in some form or other. Given the propensity of the British press the ramp up even the slightest negative thing about someone to ridiculous levels there genuinely appears to be no one with any bad story about her anywhere that the press can exaggerate as click-bait. It really is very, very bizarre, in my opinion.

I do get what you're saying about the first hand-over sheet. Obviously, I have no experience of the profession, but it doesn't sound to me like something really egregious. Thinking about it, perhaps that first one really was a genuine mistake, a brain fade given the inevitable nervousness and stress of your very first real shift as a proper employee? If it was then perhaps she saw it as "fate" (she seems to like that word) and thought she'd keep getting away with it in future?



*As I think I mentioned at the time, I think that Dawn was somewhat stitched up by the BBC in that documentary. Her interview where she said that she'd never believe that Lucy did it unless she told her herself was almost certainly recorded before the verdicts and she hadn't attended any of the trial. LL was, I think, intentionally trying to keep her friends in the dark as much as possible.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Good job we've never met, God only knows where that would lead.

Should we start a thread now and archive it for a few years? That way we'll be off to a running start as soon as the first media reports are published!

 

[Marantz4250b]

It's been mentioned by a few people that she seems to have a lot of supporters who are standing by her and refuse to believe in her guit. I'm not actually seeing a great deal of evidence for that, tbh. As mentioned above, her friend Dawn said something to that effect on the BBC programme but that was almost certainly recorded prior to the verdicts and she hadn't attended the trial. It's anyone's guess what her feelings are now.

There is apparently a group in the US who seem to be ramping her innocence but they seem to have no connection to her at all and it smells very much like a click-bait scam or similar. Probably the same lot who were running lucyletby.com which was a short-lived site proclaiming her innocence a while back which, again, appeared to be completely unconnected to her.

I don't see any evidence that there are swathes of people who are totally convinced of her innocence, tbh.

 

[Parker Knoll]

https://x.com/mrdandonoghue/status/1698722672572592258?s=61

Progress -

 

[Parker Knoll]

Government confirms it is launching statutory inquiry into Lucy Letby

Health Secretary Steve Barclay said the inquiry, which will be led by the experienced judge Lady Justice Kathryn Thirlwall, will be given the power to compel witnesses to give evidence.

news.sky.com

 

[Marantz4250b]

https://x.com/mrdandonoghue/status/1698722672572592258?s=61

Progress -

Good!

 

[Parker Knoll]

IIRC she was the trial judge for that utter waste of space Mick Philpott.
8 hours blissful for Tony, Karen et al looking unlikely again tonight.

 

[CS2C]

I don’t suppose anyone has to hand the first day of Lucy Letby’s cross examination by the defence ?

 

[Parker Knoll]

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 9 - cross-examination continues

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, is…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[CS2C]

Thank you Parker !

 

[cottonweaver]

It's been mentioned by a few people that she seems to have a lot of supporters who are standing by her and refuse to believe in her guit. I'm not actually seeing a great deal of evidence for that, tbh. As mentioned above, her friend Dawn said something to that effect on the BBC programme but that was almost certainly recorded prior to the verdicts and she hadn't attended the trial. It's anyone's guess what her feelings are now.

There is apparently a group in the US who seem to be ramping her innocence but they seem to have no connection to her at all and it smells very much like a click-bait scam or similar. Probably the same lot who were running lucyletby.com which was a short-lived site proclaiming her innocence a while back which, again, appeared to be completely unconnected to her.

I don't see any evidence that there are swathes of people who are totally convinced of her innocence, tbh.

agree

re Dawn Howe's status - Telegraph checked in with her last week and she replied that she ' stands behind ' her previous statement

 

[cottonweaver]

I absolutely appreciate all that and hear what you're saying.

This isn't week two as far as the reporters and media are concerned, though - it's week two hundred and seventy since she was arrested on 3rd July 2018. They've had more than five years to dig up every piece of dirt they could possibly find on her; they will have approached her entire family including any distant, extended family members they can find; everyone she was at school and collage with; her teachers and lecturers; everyone she's ever interacted with on FB - and certainly everyone in all the FB photos - and literally everyone they thought had the slightest connection to her.

In all that time they've reported the words of one chap who was the ex-boyfriend of her friend who says she was "a bit socially awkward", which for an early 20's woman these days is not uncommon, and her friend Dawn who was in the BBC documentary* who seems to be the source of the "we were were known as the mis-match crowd" (or however she put it) comments. I am completely convinced that, were there some tragic back story to her life, a childhood of abuse or her being an abuser, or her exhibiting deeply weird or disturbing behavior then we'd have heard about it in some form or other. Given the propensity of the British press the ramp up even the slightest negative thing about someone to ridiculous levels there genuinely appears to be no one with any bad story about her anywhere that the press can exaggerate as click-bait. It really is very, very bizarre, in my opinion.

snipped just for that topic.

- Look at socially integrated SKs then it might seem less weird and bizarre. Then look at the ones who have no tragic back story either. It happens

- As Dr Gibbs said in the last DM podcast - many of the colleagues on ward are only now - post verdict - coming to terms w fact that she IS guilty ( 2 weeks)
- Plus you'll have others who've been told by CoC that they can't talk to media, others who are worried about backlash & career implications.
- Re friends. She had a tight crew at school & DH claimed ( 1week pre sentence?) that none believed her guilty. 5 years later, as you pointed out. Dawn Howe obviously wasn't stitched up, as you put it.
- Re her family. We had her mum literally railing at reporters during trial. Why would a close family m now sit down with a Sun/any reporter and say well, yes after listening to Dr Holmes on every TV channel, I agree with him that high grade psychopathy is hard to detect, especially when you're not objective.
- Consider that a school teacher or college lecturer might not speak to press about their former student but might have no issue speaking to LE