UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 7 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 6 hung re attempted #34

[cottonweaver]

Healthcare staff don't go off sick just because they're a bit ill. People drag themselves in because they can't easily be replaced.

while you're here can I ask whether you think her age and relative lack of experience made her not the ideal NNU choice?

Heard a few American nurses say it's questionable but IDK. They think that role should be filled by older, more experienced nurses just because of risks.
Have NNU nurses got younger here, over time? ( shortages?)

 

[marynnu]

while you're here can I ask whether you think her age and relative lack of experience made her not the ideal NNU choice?

Heard a few American nurses say it's questionable but IDK. They think that role should be filled by older, more experienced nurses just because of risks.
Have NNU nurses got younger here, over time? ( shortages?)

You have a point. I can only speak for where I worked. Way back, we didn't employ nurses straight from training - they were expected to have done at least a year in a more general setting first. But this gradually changed, as you say due to the difficulties in recruitment. I always felt that was a mistake, for their sakes, but not that it would make them less able in any way. Neonatal care is so unique nothing really prepares you. I'd been qualified for 4 years when I started but felt I'd gone back to square one!

 

[Anxala]

Well, it's incarcerated but a secure hospital like Rampton or Broadmoor isn't a prison in the technical sense. The daily regime is completely different as well.

Sure, but even if she ends up in a place like Rampton, she'll still live a very controlled and restricted life. For all her life. As she deserves.

Rehab/recovery is at the heart of the service within Rampton, isn't it? Is that why you feel it's inappropriate and/or a 'soft' option? I'm just interested in your thinking here.

For me the idea of being locked up for life - regardless of where that might be, prison or psychiatric hospital - is absolutely terrifying (my blood runs cold even at the thought of it, I'd really rather die) so that probably is informing my 'does it matter?' stance on where LL ends up. For me, the punishment is the permanent loss of freedom and autonomy.

 

[LadyL]

Interesting that you mention that because 'preoccupation w/one's own health' is often a precursor to Munchausen by proxy.

Munchausen is often seen in one's childhood before it turns into Munchausen By Proxy in later years.


This portion shows how phoney she can be---complains about her whiny colleague to one friend, then texts the colleAgue to say 'hope you are feeling better...'

Causes of MBPS​

MBPS is a psychiatric condition. In some cases, the perpetrators were themselves abused, physically and/or and sexually, as children.
They may have come from families in which being sick was a way to get love.

The parent's or caregiver's own personal needs overcome his or her ability to see the child as a person with feelings and rights, possibly because the parent or caregiver may have grown up being treated like he or she wasn't a person with rights or feelings.

In rare cases, MBPS is not caused by a parent or family member, but by a medical professional (such as a nurse or doctor), who induces illness in a child who is hospitalized for other reasons.

https://www.childrensmn.org/educationmaterials/parents/article/8107/munchausen-by-proxy-syndrome/

carrying a first aid kit around ...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sure, but even if she ends up in a place like Rampton, she'll still live a very controlled and restricted life. For all her life. As she deserves.

Rehab/recovery is at the heart of the service within Rampton, isn't it? Is that why you feel it's inappropriate and/or a 'soft' option? I'm just interested in your thinking here.

For me the idea of being locked up for life - regardless of where that might be, prison or psychiatric hospital - is absolutely terrifying (my blood runs cold at the thought of it, I'd really rather die) so that probably is informing my 'does it matter?' stance on where LL ends up. For me, the punishment is the loss of freedom and autonomy.

I agree with your sentiment here and although what LL has done is abhorrent, if she lands up in some 'touchy feely' mental health facility for the rest of her life, it's hardly going to be a walk in the park.

Any prisoner in the UK loses agency over their right to freedom of movement of course, but they lose so many other rights - their voting right in general elections for example. If LL ends up under psychiatry, she'll lose her right to refuse medical treatments, medications, and psychiatric interventions. She'll be used and interviewed and observed like a guinea pig by everyone from experts to trainee psychologists. I'm not even sure that such prisoners aren't even used for medication and treatment experiments.

Maybe she'll give some clues as to her processes and psyche and how society can help someone before they get to the point of murdering babies, in which case she'll serve a purpose to humanity. She may even confess her crimes in time, who knows.

But the fact she can't safely mingle with other prisoners, that she will never be free again for the rest of her life, that she will have to look over her shoulder for assaults and attempts on her life, that she has no agency or volition over any aspect of her life and could even have enforced psychiatric experimental treatments... wherever she ends up, her life will be horrific, I can't imagine and would also rather be dead. In fact it's a form of torture in its own right surely?

 

[Anxala]

I agree with your sentiment here and although what LL has done is abhorrent, if she lands up in some 'touchy feely' mental health facility for the rest of her life, it's hardly going to be a walk in the park.

Yes, which is why where she ends up and the nature of her incarceration is not an issue for me. There's no 'better' place here.

 

[JosieJo]

It's not all about " a better place " though is it ..she should be where she is "meant" to be . .the thought of her "manipulating" the situation infuriates me. It appears imo she was a master of manipulating others and to allow her to continue this is wrong.
If its the appropriate place for her due to genuine problems so be it ...but that's not for "her" to decide.
The additional costs also has to be considered... plus taking a place in a facility that others may need

 

[Dotta]

It's not all about " a better place " though is it ..she should be where she is "meant" to be . .the thought of her "manipulating" the situation infuriates me. It appears imo she was a master of manipulating others and to allow her to continue this is wrong.
If its the appropriate place for her due to genuine problems so be it ...but that's not for "her" to decide.
The additional costs also has to be considered... plus taking a place in a facility that others may need

Absolutely!
Her Defence never even hinted about any kind of mental problems - except PTSD that is.

There are criminals truly insane who need constant supervision and meds.

She lived alone without any problems, worked, bought a house, drove a car - how come such a criminal can end up in psychiatric unit?

JMO

 

[cottonweaver]

It's not all about " a better place " though is it ..she should be where she is "meant" to be . .the thought of her "manipulating" the situation infuriates me. It appears imo she was a master of manipulating others and to allow her to continue this is wrong.
If its the appropriate place for her due to genuine problems so be it ...but that's not for "her" to decide.
The additional costs also has to be considered... plus taking a place in a facility that others may need

and whether she has a condition which is treatable.

Agree re simple fact that there are thousands of genuinely mentally ill convicts in prisons who ought to be in secure hospitals... where they can get treatment for their treatable conditions.
Instead they end up killing themselves


The average length of stay for patients at Rampton is around eight years. Those inmates are treatable so they can move on elsewhere after treatment
Rampton Hospital (High Secure Service) Independent Patients Advocacy Service - Together: A leading UK mental health charity.

 

[katydid23]

and whether she has a condition which is treatable.

I think that is the key question and issue here. IMO, there is no hope for any kind of rehabilitation. You cannot come back from killing 7 babies, and assaulting many more.

Agree re simple fact that there are thousands of genuinely mentally ill convicts in prisons who ought to be in secure hospitals... where they can get treatment for their treatable conditions.
Instead they end up killing themselves

I agree. There are people who can be treated and then hopefully released to have second chance at life. Nurse Letby is not one of them.

The average length of stay for patients at Rampton is around eight years. Those inmates are treatable so they can move on elsewhere after treatment
Rampton Hospital (High Secure Service) Independent Patients Advocacy Service - Together: A leading UK mental health charity.

She is just wasting space that can be given to someone that can really use that time and resources.

 

[Anxala]

It's not all about " a better place " though is it ..she should be where she is "meant" to be . .the thought of her "manipulating" the situation infuriates me. It appears imo she was a master of manipulating others and to allow her to continue this is wrong.
If its the appropriate place for her due to genuine problems so be it ...but that's not for "her" to decide.
The additional costs also has to be considered... plus taking a place in a facility that others may need

But she'll be evaluated by skilled professionals, wise to the ways of manipulation! I'm not understanding why you think she has any balls in her court as far as where she gets to spend her sentence. She can't decide anything, she's at the mercy of those who assess her. They're the ones who'll make the decisions here, not her.

Also, her manipulation of others occurred when she was an unknown quantity, when no one had any reason to feel they were being manipulated. That's not the case now. Her manipulating days are over.

 

[mrC]

thres a good acount to to follow her on the twitter https://twitter.com/LucyLetbyTrial

 

[JosieJo]

But she'll be evaluated by skilled professionals, wise to the ways of manipulation! I'm not understanding why you think she has any balls in her court as far as where she gets to spend her sentence. She can't decide anything, she's at the mercy of those who assess her. They're the ones who'll make the decisions here, not her.

Also, her manipulation of others occurred when she was an unknown quantity, when no one had any reason to feel they were being manipulated. That's not the case now. Her manipulating days are over.

I totally agree .. I was answering the point of "why worry about where she we will be as she will lose her freedom either way" point though

 

[cottonweaver]

Thoughts ?

webcam donation March 2015

Neonatal Unit manager said “ We are extremely grateful to Amanda for all her hard work in raising enough money to buy this equipment. The webcam will enable mums who are in hospital as an in-patient in the Intensive Care Unit, High Dependency Unit or maternity ward after giving birth and are unable to visit the neonatal unit to see their new born babies on screen.'

Donor Amanda who had baby on NNU in 2008 added: “I still feel very emotional now as I think about the traumatic time I had when Nieve was born, and I know how hard it is to be separated from your baby. This facility is something I would have loved to have had when Nieve was on the neonatal unit and I hope and that the webcam will be bring a lot of comfort to other Mums who find themselves in the same position.”

Mum raises funds to buy webcam for neonatal unit at Countess of Chester

Amanda Hett hopes device will help families at a traumatic time

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

Am thinking of the mums who were told to go back to their ward and the dads who were told to go home

 

[marynnu]

Thoughts ?

webcam donation March 2015

Neonatal Unit manager said “ We are extremely grateful to Amanda for all her hard work in raising enough money to buy this equipment. The webcam will enable mums who are in hospital as an in-patient in the Intensive Care Unit, High Dependency Unit or maternity ward after giving birth and are unable to visit the neonatal unit to see their new born babies on screen.'

Donor Amanda who had baby on NNU in 2008 added: “I still feel very emotional now as I think about the traumatic time I had when Nieve was born, and I know how hard it is to be separated from your baby. This facility is something I would have loved to have had when Nieve was on the neonatal unit and I hope and that the webcam will be bring a lot of comfort to other Mums who find themselves in the same position.”

Mum raises funds to buy webcam for neonatal unit at Countess of Chester

Amanda Hett hopes device will help families at a traumatic time

www.cheshire-live.co.uk

Am thinking of the mums who were told to go back to their ward and the dads who were told to go home

This is obviously quite selective, aimed solely at mothers unable to visit, which I agree with.

 

[cottonweaver]

This is obviously quite selective, aimed solely at mothers unable to visit, which I agree with.

some examples here - designed for use by mums at same hospital as their babies

Babycams proving to be vital lifeline for mums and their newborn

THERE’S nothing a mum wants more than to cuddle and hold her newborn baby.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

but yes COC management obviously had no intention of using something like this when Brearey & Gibbs were demanding that CCTV would have to be used becausesLL was returning in 6 days.

 

[JosieJo]

some examples here - designed for use by mums at same hospital as their babies

Babycams proving to be vital lifeline for mums and their newborn

THERE’S nothing a mum wants more than to cuddle and hold her newborn baby.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

but yes COC management obviously had no intention of using something like this when Brearey & Gibbs were demanding that CCTV would have to be used becausesLL was returning in 6 days.

I'd imagine there would only be one or two of these that would be kept in an "equipment library " which would be signed out as they were used .
I'd imagine they would be for the sickest mums who were bed bound and unable to visit for longer periods

 

[cottonweaver]

I'd imagine there would only be one or two of these that would be kept in an "equipment library " which would be signed out as they were used .
I'd imagine they would be for the sickest mums who were bed bound and unable to visit for longer periods

yes that's what the link says & it's why I posted it. Common in Scotland for mums who're on another ward ( not at home unable to visit)

I'm not suggesting that all NNUs use them for every baby in every NNU across the UK
I posted the original 2015 Chester Standard link because it struck me that it was significant that CoC already had experience of using one but were refusing consultants call for CCTV point blank. ( Exceptional circumstances. CoC refusing any safeguards at all - despite the possibility that there was a murderer on the ward & babies were dying at a rate of knots)

 

[Anxala]

I think that is the key question and issue here. IMO, there is no hope for any kind of rehabilitation. You cannot come back from killing 7 babies, and assaulting many more.

I agree. There are people who can be treated and then hopefully released to have second chance at life. Nurse Letby is not one of them.

She is just wasting space that can be given to someone that can really use that time and resources.

With respect, you have no idea whether or not rehab could be in her future down the line. You have no idea if she can be treated or not. Until she's been evaluated, no one can say with any authority that she's beyond redemption. She, by virtue of her WoL sentences, will never be released so it's not as if we're not talking about second chances or her re-entering society here. That shouldn't mean that she's denied the opportunity to atone.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I think she has that capability. She may not. But equally, down the line, with help, she may. What I'm mainly saying is that none of us are in a position to make ^ claims that have absolutely no basis in facts.

A penal system without hope of rehab at its core, regardless of the crimes committed, is a wasted and barren one,

JMO etc etc

 

[katydid23]

With respect, you have no idea whether or not rehab could be in her future down the line. You have no idea if she can be treated or not. Until she's been evaluated, no one can say with any authority that she's beyond redemption. She, by virtue of her WoL sentences, will never be released so it's not as if we're not talking about second chances or her re-entering society here. That shouldn't mean that she's denied the opportunity to atone.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying I think she has that capability. She may not. But equally, down the line, with help, she may. What I'm mainly saying is that none of us are in a position to make ^ claims that have absolutely no basis in facts.

A penal system without hope of rehab at its core, regardless of the crimes committed, is a wasted and barren one,

JMO etc etc

I wouldn't dare to say that about many people. But I stand by my statement----Nurse Letby cannot be rehabilitated. How can she atone? There are no making amends for the cold blooded,callous torturous killings of innocent newborns.

There is nothing she can say or do that will atone for those wilful actions, in my personal opinion.

Her being in a hospital setting, where she gets 'treatment' and is treated with care and concern and gets to talk about her exploits and is doted upon by a team of experts seems wrong headed, to me.

I think my claim does have a factual basis. This woman made hundreds of cruel, calculating decisions designed to cover up the torture and murder of many innocent babies, just for her own amusement. Those are facts.

The penal system, in her specific case, has no 'hope' of rehabilitation. How could anyone look at a tiny innocent newborn and decide to crush their liver or stroke them out? Only to then hug and comfort the grieving families and send them condolence cards? There is no coming back from that kind of vile, inhuman behaviour. JMO

What kind of treatment can correct such horridly evil behaviour? I think she should be bundled up and moved to a prison cell, instead of a comfortable hospital setting. Let someone who needs treatment take her spot. JMO