UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[Tortoise]

I’ve added it for clarity- although apologise I can’t cut and paste, so a screenshot will have to suffice. It’s also worth noting as well as being a mentor to LL, nurse Y was also the person who collated the statistics for the ward ( again screenshot below)

She says she was involved in the care of those babies, and specifically says she was not on shift when they collapsed or died.

 

[mrC]

she was involved of those babys so knew a fair about the baby's health thn most people

 

[Tortoise]

she was involved of those babys so knew a fair about the baby's health thn most people

There was no nurse's evidence in the trial that conflicted with any of the doctors' evidence in the trial, about the health of the babies.

 

[May72031]

she was involved of those babys so knew a fair about the baby's health thn most people

Yeah, and?

 

[mrC]

so she is perfectly qualified to coment on the subject of how they deid

 

[JosieJo]

<modsnip: Quoted post was remove due to random social media>
The staffing levels was fully covered at the trial ..the jury were aware of the levels

 

[Furore]

The staffing levels was fully covered at the trial ..the jury were aware of the levels

When one reads evidence from the paediatrician (from Thirlwell) in charge of the Regional Network (that oversees standards and cases across multiple NiCUs in the region) he did not feel CoC was any lesser staffed than any other in the region - they were all suffering. The regional network was also involved in trying to establish the increase in deaths and underlying causes - paediatricians took the cases to the network for input. This was not driven by a couple of doctors either a grudge trying to cover up their deficiencies IMO - they were dealing with increased collapses and deaths and trying to work backwards to establish cause. The morbidity/mortality reviews are under the purview of physicians not the nurses so if the physicians only became suspicious after a number of collapses and the staffing logs, I don’t find it realistic for nursing staff (who again weren’t aware of allegations and not retrospectively looking for active harm) to have been on the look out for anything. The idea of a colleague harming babies must have been unthinkable - it would be like imagining your best friend is a murderer - why would your mind even go there unless it had to? JMO. I cannot imagine anyone who is trained to give fluids and medication intravenously being unaware of air embolism - it’s a known hazard - we have all seen the classic tv image of someone holding up a hypodermic syringe and tapping the air bubbles out!

A lot of these babies were NOT sick - many were above 32 weeks where survival is close to 100% - do we know all the ages of the babies exactly I can’t find them listed, but again this is a reason that all the clinicians started to become suspicious.

To be honest I don’t think anyone except maybe Dr Jay and the mother of the bleeding baby directly claimed to see her doing anything - just as no one would have seen Shipman doing anything! The nature of NICU and any other ICU is that it is 1:1 or 1:2 nursing care - nurses don’t work with each other all shift, let alone oversee what is injected etc especially in side rooms. Goes without saying no one saw her doing anything much because that’s how she got away with it - additionally many early collapses were at night when the unit is dark. JMO but I think unfortunately that nurse mentor just wanted to believe she hadn’t been duped, she is allowed to feel how she wants but she also can’t prove Lucy is innocent or offer a case by case alternative to why those babies unexpectedly collapsed on letby in particular time and time again.

The mortality jumped from 2/3 to 18 in that year 2015-2016, anyone with a brain cell can see that had to trigger concerns, regional and college input, and that ANY patient safety issue had to be placed ahead of “friendships” and this is completely the right professional thing to do - remember many of the nurses hadn’t been told why letby was suspended/moved or suspicions about patient harm - there was an investigation ongoing and it was kept circumspect. This is exactly what should have happened (and one could argue should have happened earlier!) and was absolutely not a personal betrayal. All JMO

 

[mrC]

they were all under staffed but they were not all taking such serious cases

 

[mrC]

thats the dr j whos evidence was called highly unsatisfactory by the Court of apeal being it was largely on false door swipe evdence

 

[mrC]

heres the appeal jusgement i belive fr js evdence is coverd here https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/R-v-Letby-Final-Judgment-20240702.pdf

 

[mrC]

this sort of destroys fr js credibility Evidence in first Lucy Letby trial was incorrect, CPS admits

 

[Tortoise]

thats the dr j whos evidence was called highly unsatisfactory by the Court of apeal being it was largely on false door swipe evdence

No they didn't say his evidence was highly unsatisfactory. They said his evidence could be legitimately criticised (and of course this observation was not new, it was Letby's whole defence - that he should not be believed) but the jury was sure, despite Myers KC's criticisms of Dr Jayaram.

She was convicted with the correct door swipe data.

 

[Furore]

they were all under staffed but they were not all taking such serious cases

We don’t actually know what the real
Objective acuity was like across the network - acuity rarely hits one hospital IMO, if there’s a genuine increase in demand and severity of illness and birth rate that tends to be seen across the population (with exception of geographically isolated events like a flood/festival/terrorist incident) - IMO but I’ll see what evidence I can find. Acuity and frequency of admissions has increased in general across the NHS really since 2010. I wouldn’t say everyone’s mortality had quintupled! This NHS report into increasing acuity in emergency departments covers the 2011-2016 period (it’s not NICU but you’d expect the same trend) https://www.strategyunitwm.nhs.uk/s...enting_at_Emergency_Departments_sw_170602.pdf

 

[Tortoise]

this sort of destroys fr js credibility Evidence in first Lucy Letby trial was incorrect, CPS admits

It didn't destroy his credibility. The jury found her guilty with that knowledge. Do you think Myers KC would not have appealed it if it was a legitimate issue? And that McDonald wouldn't be raving on about it now if it was a legitimate issue?

 

[Sweeper2000]

No they didn't say his evidence was highly unsatisfactory. They said his evidence could be legitimately criticised (and of course this observation was not new, it was Letby's whole defence - that he should not be believed) but the jury was sure, despite Myers KC's criticisms of Dr Jayaram.

She was convicted with the correct door swipe data.

interesting, i thought the door swipe data was more r less dismissed but it was known and acknowledged that it was also irrelevant. What happened there then? some was ok and some not so much?

 

[mrC]

no the jury found her guilty on false door swipe evidence the cps admit that ill post the link agian the door swipe evdence the first jury heard was false Evidence in first Lucy Letby trial was incorrect, CPS admits

 

[Tortoise]

no the jury found her guilty on false door swipe evidence the cps admit that ill post the link agian the door swipe evdence the jury heard was false Evidence in first Lucy Letby trial was incorrect, CPS admits

You've misread it. Quoted from your article -

During the retrial, Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, told the court that door-swipe data, showing which nurses and doctors were entering and exiting the intensive care ward, had been “mislabelled”.

The Crown Prosecution Service told the Telegraph that the discrepancy discovered was related to one door in the neonatal intensive care unit and that it had been corrected for the retrial.

A spokesperson for the Mersey-Cheshire Crown Prosecution Service said: “The CPS can confirm that accurate door-swipe data was presented in the retrial.”

 

[Tortoise]

interesting, i thought the door swipe data was more r less dismissed but it was known and acknowledged that it was also irrelevant. What happened there then? some was ok and some not so much?

I don't know Sweeper, all I know is the jury weren't bothered by the difference. I'm supposing Dr Jayaram wasn't watching the clock and estimated the time he went in the nursery and saw Letby not assisting baby K, or something similar.

 

[mrC]

but a certan doctors evidence was based around it

 

[Furore]

A further point if staffing and acuity/lack of knowledge were the main issue you’d expect suspending LL to worsen the morbidity and mortality rather than improve the rates of collapse/death.