UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

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  • #721
The Dr wasn't present she delayed calling him
Are we sure the delay was due to no one contacting the doctor? The mum returned to the ward and talked to a midwife and was very upset in her testimony in the Thirwell inquiry and the midwife kept coming back to her over the next 2 hours to reassure the mum, she then phoned her husband and took mum back down to the ward- this suggests at least this member of staff was also ringing the other ward and keeping in touch in the 2 hour window, did she not ask when the doctor would see the baby and question a delay? I’m not disagreeing that you heard that LL deliberately didn’t call the doctor- but I can’t find that snippet. It’s also worth remembering when the mum saw the blood on the babies mouth, Lucy Letby was at the work station (which is where you would phone for a doctor to attend)- which was in the corridor, not in the room with the baby.
 
  • #722
Are we sure the delay was due to no one contacting the doctor? The mum returned to the ward and talked to a midwife and was very upset in her testimony in the Thirwell inquiry and the midwife kept coming back to her over the next 2 hours to reassure the mum, she then phoned her husband and took mum back down to the ward- this suggests at least this member of staff was also ringing the other ward and keeping in touch in the 2 hour window, did she not ask when the doctor would see the baby and question a delay? I’m not disagreeing that you heard that LL deliberately didn’t call the doctor- but I can’t find that snippet. It’s also worth remembering when the mum saw the blood on the babies mouth, Lucy Letby was at the work station (which is where you would phone for a doctor to attend)- which was in the corridor, not in the room with the baby.

She delayed ringing the Dr for 45 minutes from what I can remember..so within that 2 hours it would depend if the ward staff phoned within the first 45 min..bearing in mind within that first 45min mum spent time on phone to husband.
If the ward did phone in first 45 min they would be directed to LL who I suppose could tell them anything.
Also I'm fairly sure letby was not in corridor but virtually next to cot doing nothing
 
  • #723
Are we sure the delay was due to no one contacting the doctor? The mum returned to the ward and talked to a midwife and was very upset in her testimony in the Thirwell inquiry and the midwife kept coming back to her over the next 2 hours to reassure the mum, she then phoned her husband and took mum back down to the ward- this suggests at least this member of staff was also ringing the other ward and keeping in touch in the 2 hour window, did she not ask when the doctor would see the baby and question a delay? I’m not disagreeing that you heard that LL deliberately didn’t call the doctor- but I can’t find that snippet. It’s also worth remembering when the mum saw the blood on the babies mouth, Lucy Letby was at the work station (which is where you would phone for a doctor to attend)- which was in the corridor, not in the room with the baby.
No the mum of baby attended at 9pm for a scheduled feeding, she walked in to find lucy letby not doing much and to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. she was obviously shocked at the sight and asked letby wth is going on and letby dismissed her with "tubes rubbing" and told her to go back to her room. which she did and immediately called her husband around 9.04 pm from memory per phone records with the call lasting a few minutes. in his own words the doctor first attendance for baby e was later in the evening and he did not remember advising to omit the 9pm feed as per letbys notes. the nurse on the mums ward would just go with what she is told and "reassure" the mom.
 
  • #724
No the mum of baby attended at 9pm for a scheduled feeding, she walked in to find lucy letby not doing much and to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. she was obviously shocked at the sight and asked letby wth is going on and letby dismissed her with "tubes rubbing" and told her to go back to her room. which she did and immediately called her husband around 9.04 pm from memory per phone records with the call lasting a few minutes. in his own words the doctor first attendance for baby e was later in the evening and he did not remember advising to omit the 9pm feed as per letbys notes. the nurse on the mums ward would just go with what she is told and "reassure" the mom.
Yes I went back and checked for my own clarity and found these quotes

The woman described how she had gone to the neonatal unit to feed them at about 9pm on 3 August 2015 when she heard Baby E’s “horrendous” screams from the corridor.

Letby was the only nurse in the room at that time and was standing by a work station near Baby E’s incubator, the jury was told.


She told the BBC: “The crying, I had never heard anything like it since.

“It was screaming, it was screaming and I was like ‘what is the matter with him?’

“He had blood round his mouth and Lucy was there, but faffing about, not doing anything.

 
  • #725
Mum walked in and her baby was screaming like she had never heard a baby scream...letby was alone and was stood to the side of the cot doing nothing...mum went over to cot and there was blood on babies face ...she called Dr 45min later
Datix for baby e states had a bleed at 9.40 consultant was informed and approved treatment by 10.10, there was then a subsequent bleed at 11.00- consultant again consulted, baby deteriorated at 11.40 and consultant arrived at the ward at 12.25. 3 doctors and 3 nurses were present at 12:37 when the baby crashed and still present at time of death at 1.23.

It doesn’t seem to suggest any delay in calling for advice or keeping the consultant informed.


 
  • #726
No the mum of baby attended at 9pm for a scheduled feeding, she walked in to find lucy letby not doing much and to find her baby bleeding from the mouth. she was obviously shocked at the sight and asked letby wth is going on and letby dismissed her with "tubes rubbing" and told her to go back to her room. which she did and immediately called her husband around 9.04 pm from memory per phone records with the call lasting a few minutes. in his own words the doctor first attendance for baby e was later in the evening and he did not remember advising to omit the 9pm feed as per letbys notes. the nurse on the mums ward would just go with what she is told and "reassure" the mom.
the first bleed was at 9.40
 
  • #727
Yes I went back and checked for my own clarity and found these quotes

The woman described how she had gone to the neonatal unit to feed them at about 9pm on 3 August 2015 when she heard Baby E’s “horrendous” screams from the corridor.

Letby was the only nurse in the room at that time and was standing by a work station near Baby E’s incubator, the jury was told.


She told the BBC: “The crying, I had never heard anything like it since.

“It was screaming, it was screaming and I was like ‘what is the matter with him?’

“He had blood round his mouth and Lucy was there, but faffing about, not doing anything.

forgot about the screaming tbh.

Datix for baby e states had a bleed at 9.40 consultant was informed and approved treatment by 10.10, there was then a subsequent bleed at 11.00- consultant again consulted, baby deteriorated at 11.40 and consultant arrived at the ward at 12.25. 3 doctors and 3 nurses were present at 12:37 when the baby crashed and still present at time of death at 1.23.

It doesn’t seem to suggest any delay in calling for advice or keeping the consultant informed.


The delay is inferred by the fact that lucy had written in baby e notes to omit the 9 pm feed which s/he does not remember doing. so if the baby is bleeding at 9 pm and letby has falsified notes it infers that the doc was not told about he bleed and he remembers only seeing this baby well after the 9 pm feed. per letbys notes the doc told them to omit the feed which in his words she made up which means she did not tell him about the 9 pm bleed.

quote from baby e mum about what letby said.

"She said the registrar was on his way and if there was a problem, someone would ring up to the post-natal ward."


9.40 is too longer time period as that doc would have been there immediately and was supposed to be there at 9 anyway according to letbys feed notes.

I think the "work station" means two different things here as well, the workstation the mum refers to is simply the table that nurses would prepare stuff on rather than the "work station" referred to officially and the one with the phone on.

if im understanding correctly.

heres chester standards live reporting on Baby E.


JUST A HEADS UP IN BOLD, Baby E case was one of the most harrowing so be aware if and when you read through these articles.
 
  • #728
Datix for baby e states had a bleed at 9.40 consultant was informed and approved treatment by 10.10, there was then a subsequent bleed at 11.00- consultant again consulted, baby deteriorated at 11.40 and consultant arrived at the ward at 12.25. 3 doctors and 3 nurses were present at 12:37 when the baby crashed and still present at time of death at 1.23.

It doesn’t seem to suggest any delay in calling for advice or keeping the consultant informed.


The bleed was there at 9pm when mom was there ..she said to mom she would inform Dr straight away but informed him 9.40 time of Datix. Prosecution claimed she purposely delayed 40 min
 
  • #729
forgot about the screaming tbh.


The delay is inferred by the fact that lucy had written in baby e notes to omit the 9 pm feed which s/he does not remember doing. so if the baby is bleeding at 9 pm and letby has falsified notes it infers that the doc was not told about he bleed and he remembers only seeing this baby well after the 9 pm feed. per letbys notes the doc told them to omit the feed which in his words she made up which means she did not tell him about the 9 pm bleed.

quote from baby e mum about what letby said.

"She said the registrar was on his way and if there was a problem, someone would ring up to the post-natal ward."


9.40 is too longer time period as that doc would have been there immediately and was supposed to be there at 9 anyway according to letbys feed notes.

I think the "work station" means two different things here as well, the workstation the mum refers to is simply the table that nurses would prepare stuff on rather than the "work station" referred to officially and the one with the phone on.

if im understanding correctly.

heres chester standards live reporting on Baby E.


JUST A HEADS UP IN BOLD, Baby E case was one of the most harrowing so be aware if and when you read through these articles.
Letby "lied" in court and said it was 10pm when mom visited not 9pm ...said mum must be mistaken...but phone records backed up mum ..as did dad's statement
 
  • #730
Thats it JJ. memory prompt appreciated.
 
  • #731
The bleed was there at 9pm when mom was there ..she said to mom she would inform Dr straight away but informed him 9.40 time of Datix. Prosecution claimed she purposely delayed 40 min
But that doesn’t fit with mum being asked repeatedly at the inquiry how long/ what time elapsed- she did two visits that evening, there was 2 hours between the visits, the second one she was taken up by the midwife who she had told about the bleeding earlier on in the evening after returning from her first visit when she was upset ( it was confirmed by both people it was two hours). When they returned two hours after mum had first seen the bleeding earlier, all the staff were working on baby e. So if the bleed happened at 9 and LL just didn’t record it, they returned about 11- before baby e collapsed and long before the consultant was there at 12.25- one of those timelines is inaccurate. There is also a discrepancy as whilst the mum does bring up and discuss the phone records and being certain it was before 9.00 that the bleed occurred- when she returned to the ward she sat in the corridor for 15 minutes before she went into the room, watching through the window and she experienced the doctors spending about 45 minutes on the resuscitation efforts- which again fits with the latter time of the bleed and not pre 9.00 with LL delaying, unless they also falsified the time of death.

 
  • #732
remarmable to never be cought on cctv as well funny there was no cctb footage to back up any of this
CCTV in hospitals is in public entrances, hallways, waiting rooms etc it is never where there are inpatients and especially not intensive care areas. That really is not a strange thing whatsoever, and definitely not something to attach weight to?
 
  • #733
so if a doctor was in the room with her how could she have done anything and why didn't he stop her this is comlete crock doctors aperantly while nurses harm babys do they why dident he call the police
Which murder are you referring to?

She did not attack babies while doctors were present. However a couple of times, people walked in just as she had finished, and they saw the results.
 
  • #734
actully its not 14 eperts its 50 More than 50 experts ready to defend Letby, says her lawyer

thats one medical expert with a ery dubious history
Respectfully, it was at least six experts in the initial trial (strange defence couldn’t find any at the time isn’t it, just like to present them at press conferences), in addition to the testimony of multiple doctors, parents and individuals at the time who witnessed events unfold. JMO but well babies don’t “suddenly collapse” - they deteriorate, with their observations changing over hours. For example if they have pneumonia their respiratory rate goes up, their oxygen requirement goes up; it isn’t stable one hour and seriously deranged the next - especially in intensive care where they’re continuously monitored. JMO

Most of the info the press conference panel of experts presented isn’t new - the same issues were identified at post mortem in a number of cases - it was only as things seemed to spiral or centre on letbys patients that clinicians went back and reviewed the notes. I’ve worked in healthcare a decade and not once been even remotely close to considering a serial killer present, or heard anyone with cumulatively thousands of years of experience (eg every doctor I’ve ever met) been suspicious of a colleague. This is so unusual. Whilst I would worry about trusts wanting to cover up poor care, I don’t feel an entire consultant body would unanimously come to the conclusion there was a malign presence - clinicians flag safety issues, staffing, unsanitary estates continuously, as do nurses. The chances of all these collapses always being the same nurse….are so remote. My personal opinion is we have found a murderer, and thankfully put her away to keep others from harm.

All JMO.
 
  • #735
Which murder are you referring to?

She did not attack babies while doctors were present. However a couple of times, people walked in just as she had finished, and they saw the results.
Agreed, also hospitals don’t work like public spaces, they’d appropriately escalated their concerns to line managers and nursing directors - there came the push back. I don’t think it’s a massive crock, I think it’s an unthinkable thing to suddenly start believing there is a serial killer operating in a children’s intensive care unit, it’s so evil. Of course you’d go to your colleagues and line managers to escalate things with due process.
 
  • #736
But that doesn’t fit with mum being asked repeatedly at the inquiry how long/ what time elapsed- she did two visits that evening, there was 2 hours between the visits, the second one she was taken up by the midwife who she had told about the bleeding earlier on in the evening after returning from her first visit when she was upset ( it was confirmed by both people it was two hours).
RIGHT---she had told her husband AND the midwife about the baby bleeding before her 2nd visit. That is not inconsistent with her testimony.
When they returned two hours after mum had first seen the bleeding earlier, all the staff were working on baby e. So if the bleed happened at 9 and LL just didn’t record it, they returned about 11- before baby e collapsed and long before the consultant was there at 12.25- one of those timelines is inaccurate.

NO, not inaccurate. The baby was bleeding slightly from his mouth at 9 pm. The bleeding at 11 pm was a massive internal hemmorage.

Letby told the mom that a doctor was already on his way to that the baby. THAT WAS A LIE. Letby did not contact a doctor until 10 pm.

How do your above comments make mom untruthful or incorrect?
There is also a discrepancy as whilst the mum does bring up and discuss the phone records and being certain it was before 9.00 that the bleed occurred- when she returned to the ward she sat in the corridor for 15 minutes before she went into the room, watching through the window and she experienced the doctors spending about 45 minutes on the resuscitation efforts- which again fits with the latter time of the bleed and not pre 9.00 with LL delaying, unless they also falsified the time of death.
NO, the above is not a discrepancy. Mom saw the bleeding at 9 pm. We know that because she called her husband, crying about it at 9:15 and the phone records corroborate that time.

How does any of what is said in the above paragraph nullify what Mom has testified to?

She expressed her milk about 8:30 pm, brought it to the room for a SCHEDULED 9 pm feeding.

THAT^^^^ is evidence right there, that she is correct with her timeline. She was told to feed her 2 sons at 9 pm, and she arrived at 9 to do so. And her call to her husband at 9:15 is more corroboration.

She then did what she was told and waited in her room, until the midwife called hours late and told her to come to the nursery quickly.
Please don't forget---Letby falsified her medical logs in order to try and pretend the 9 pm feed was cancelled. The Doctor called her out on that lie. He never cancelled that scheduled feeding. Letby wrote in her notes that he cancelled it. He denied doing so and showed that there was nothing in his medical log to show that he had any info about that child until Letby called about the collapse.
 
  • #737
remarkable luck isnt to be able to do that many murders in a busy with nobody seeing you do anything
Or maybe she is cunning?

And it's not true that nobody saw her do anything. The mother of Baby E saw her in the act.
 
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  • #738
remarkable luck isnt to be able to do that many murders in a busy with nobody seeing you do anything
There are very few people in the infant's nursery. Only one or 2 nurses at various intervals, and a doctor only comes when called by a nurse. And parents can come at certain times, but Letby usually worked that overnight shifts, which are past visiting hours.

It is very easy for a nurse to be alone with an infant. In fact, they are almost always alone with the babies. And the attacks only take seconds. It does not take remarkable luck to secretly harm babies.

It takes remarkable luck for someone to catch her doing so.
 
  • #739
Are we sure the delay was due to no one contacting the doctor?

YEs, we are sure. In the trial, they showed the medical logs of all the attending doctors. Letby did not call about the bleeding infant until 9:45 pm.
The mum returned to the ward and talked to a midwife and was very upset in her testimony in the Thirwell inquiry and the midwife kept coming back to her over the next 2 hours to reassure the mum, she then phoned her husband and took mum back down to the ward- this suggests at least this member of staff was also ringing the other ward and keeping in touch in the 2 hour window, did she not ask when the doctor would see the baby and question a delay? I’m not disagreeing that you heard that LL deliberately didn’t call the doctor- but I can’t find that snippet.
It was shown during the trial that Letby did not contact the doctor about the bleeding baby, even though she told the mom that she had already called for the doctor at 9 pm. That was a lie and it was proven to be a lie in court.

Both parents testified about the bleeding crying baby, and showed phone records corroborating the call at 9 pm.

The mother told her husband about the baby crying pain, being inconsolable, and about Nurse Letby demanding that mom leAve the room because the doctor was on his way.

Letby denied that in court, and she denied that the mother came to the nursery at 9 pm with her expressed milk. But it was shown in court that there was a hospital feeding schedule showing that the mom was scheduled for a 9 pm feed appointment and the mom had expressed her milk at 8:30 pm.

So it makes perfect sense that mom would go to the nursery at 9 pm, AS SCHEDULED.

Letby tried to say that the doctor cancelled the Feed, but the doctor denied doing so, and showed the court his medical logs. They did not corroborate Letby's claim that he cancelled the feeding.

Letby FALSIFIED her own medical logs in order to pretend that the mom never arrived with milk at 9 pm. But she was caught in a lie during court.

Both of the parents, the midwife and the attending doctors denied Letby's claims.

This was the turning point in the trial, in my opinion. Once the jury heard the grieving, sincere testimonies from the parents, who had corroboration from phone records and the feeding schedule, they realised Letby was lying.

Why would a nurse lie about that timeline if she was innocent?
It’s also worth remembering when the mum saw the blood on the babies mouth, Lucy Letby was at the work station (which is where you would phone for a doctor to attend)- which was in the corridor, not in the room with the baby.
Lucy was the only person in sight and she was within a few feet of the crying, screaming infant. She was doing nothing to comfort or attend to the child, and she did not phone for a doctor to attend.

You have to understand that during the trial, there were 26 incidents, much like this one.

Also, whenever Lucy went on her 2 week holiday, no babies collapsed or died. On her last holiday vacation, a baby died on the day she left for vacation, then no collapses for 14 days, and then on the very day she returned, one died that morning and his twin collapsed that afternoon. That was a the day she was finally taken off the floor.
 
  • #740
But that doesn’t fit with mum being asked repeatedly at the inquiry how long/ what time elapsed- she did two visits that evening, there was 2 hours between the visits, the second one she was taken up by the midwife who she had told about the bleeding earlier on in the evening after returning from her first visit when she was upset ( it was confirmed by both people it was two hours). When they returned two hours after mum had first seen the bleeding earlier, all the staff were working on baby e. So if the bleed happened at 9 and LL just didn’t record it, they returned about 11- before baby e collapsed and long before the consultant was there at 12.25- one of those timelines is inaccurate. There is also a discrepancy as whilst the mum does bring up and discuss the phone records and being certain it was before 9.00 that the bleed occurred- when she returned to the ward she sat in the corridor for 15 minutes before she went into the room, watching through the window and she experienced the doctors spending about 45 minutes on the resuscitation efforts- which again fits with the latter time of the bleed and not pre 9.00 with LL delaying, unless they also falsified the time of death.

Baby E collapsed at 11 ..Dr's were called then they phoned the ward for mum

Parents were there before consultant that's correct as registrar was on site leading and was in phone only contact with Consultant prior...consultant wasn't present for some time after collapse.

 
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