UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

[Marantz4250b]

theres a system for reporting suspicions of misconduct in the nhs a anonymously why the hell dident the doctors use it


a hospital boss cant sack only the gmc can do that.

A hospital boss can sack a doctor from the hospital, I'd imagine. The GMC is not the doctor's employer.

 

[Furore]

theres a system for reporting suspicions of misconduct in the nhs a anonymously why the hell dident the doctors use it


a hospital boss cant sack only the gmc can do that.

Incorrect, trusts hold the contract and can sack. The GMC can remove doctors’ licence to practice, hence why it’s so serious.

They didn’t need to use anonymous reporting they escalated the situation (even to the regional network) after the first cluster of deaths along with staffing information. The regional Paeds lead was aware there were concerns about an individual very early on.

The consultants spent a long time trying to persuade the trust and management to even get the deaths externally reviewed - Ian Harvey wasn’t having it.

The police detective said it was obvious how relieved the consultants were that someone finally believed them when he spoke to them. They actually had still gone behind the trust’s back to do so.

It’s well documented but you seem to be unaware how fraught and hostile the management were to the consultants raising concerns.

 

[Furore]

are you honestly the gmc would ignore a credeble allegation of mass murder in a hearing theres no way they would dare

Do you have direct personal experience of the GMC? As I’ve said, the medical profession does not trust them. Routinely those raising patient safety concerns have been tapped on the hand for “affecting public trust” in the profession. See: Chris day whistleblowing case, the Bawa GABA case, and also the well documented anger and mistrust of the GMC over the past few years. Please use evidence.

BMA declares it has no confidence in the GMC

The BMA’s Annual Representative Meeting has passed a no confidence vote for the GMC, and will now call for its leadership's dismissal.

www.pulsetoday.co.uk

 

[Furore]

so the doctors have said that for 2 years they turned doesn't that make them accomplices normally that would lead to you geting charged as an acomplice

and i might point out that in law fear of getting the sack is not an excuse for failing to report a crime

To be honest despite multiple bouts of evidence, and multiple attempts to engage you critically on these subjects you seem welded to your opinion - to each their own

No, the doctors in this case did exactly what should be done/the average doctor would do, and thankfully what will come of the enquiry will indeed be better protection for whistleblowers IMHO. All JMO, but one that is well informed!

 

[Marantz4250b]

they had nothing to fear from the gmc if they were telling the truth

As previously, that's assuming a perfect world. We don't live on one.

I have little doubt that any unfounded allegation against the doctor's would eventually be put right but not immediately. Surely you have some inkling as to what a complaint against a bunch of middle-aged men alleged to be harassing a relatively newly qualified young female nurse (who people referred to as "nice Lucy") would result in for these people given the age we currently live in? It would have dragged on for absolutely years and would have become extremely ugly, imo.

Entirely innocent people often have their lives utterly ruined by untrue complaints against them. Such complaints being made to the GMC or similar could potentially have been devastating to these people's lives. Also consider their families and the stress and shame they are going to be placed under and add to that the fact that no one would be able to say anything during the time the investigations were ongoing.

This isn't meant as a criticism but you and a lot of the other Letby supporters do present as being somewhat naïve at times. Life rarely goes as it should - especially when extremely serious allegations are thrown about or used as threats against people.

 

[mrC]

its not an excuse for failing to report a crime anyway you can't just ignore a crime because you think you might lose your job if you dont

 

[Marantz4250b]

its not an excuse for failing to report a crime anyway you can't just ignore a crime because you think you might lose your job if you dont

Which is easy to say - and easy to do when you live in a perfect world.

Life is shades of grey, not black and white.

 

[mrC]

so allegedly turning mas murder is a shade of grey is it i think it might be a bit more than that it certainly is in law

 

[May72031]

Mr. C, it does appear you blame everybody else except the actual murderer - Lucy Letby. You have far more venom for the doctors who testified against her, than the management who tried to protect her.

That's rather revealing.

 

[JosieJo]

The Dr's did what they are supposed to do ..put their suspicion to the trust directors for them to look into then action.
Luckily the Consultants didn't give up when the Directors didn't want to involve the police.
Sadly one Consultant has said openly he wished he had gone direct to police instead of trusting the Directors.

 

[mrC]

no thats not what there supposed if someone murdering people in front you are supposed to call the police not doing so makes you an accomplice to the crime and a man of dr js eduction should know that

 

[JosieJo]

no thats not what there supposed if someone murdering people in front you are supposed to call the police not doing so makes you an accomplice to the crime and a man of dr js eduction should know that

No ...they were not murdering in front of them ...they had suspicion something wasn't right and noticed the same nurse was always around...that's all....so they did exactly the right thing

 

[mrC]

deaths were abnormaly high new released figures show The 10 baby deaths that cast doubt on Lucy Letby’s guilt

 

[Ruthbullock]

A further point if staffing and acuity/lack of knowledge were the main issue you’d expect suspending LL to worsen the morbidity and mortality rather than improve the rates of collapse/death.

I don’t think it makes much difference, because you make a very valid point- but there are an awful lot of the junior doctors and agency nurses who moved on at a similar point in time by sheer coincidence due to placements ending and the unit being downgraded.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Sometimes hindsight can make one recall things that wouldn’t have the same poignance in a different context. For example, when one partner I had as an adolescent cheated, a bunch of things I remembered that didn’t strike me before!

I think hospital notes can be often written retrospectively (especially in an emergency if no separate scribe) because obviously you’re not writing whilst resuscitating etc

It’s why for something like this case, the totality of complex evidence required - hence why only a trial is the appropriate forum - any why any new real evidence should be submitted to court of appeal. Trying to manipulate the public is beyond the pale really. All JMO

There are witness statements of one baby that I have seen where a doctor has said that they were the person keeping notes during resuscitation, so it does appear that it is an allocated role during these periods. The note keeping in general seems haphazard, which is again a bigger issue that hopefully will be addressed through the inquiry, although times have moved on and you now see laptops being pushed around to keep notes in real time compared to years ago.

 

[Ruthbullock]

This is just getting more and more into the realms of the unrealistic; I mean, yes, she probably could be but if that was a reasonable likelihood then surely the defence would have investigated that possibility?

Also, what diseases are out there which can be carried asymptomatically which, coincidentally (conveniently) only manifest in pre-term babies, only whilst the carrier is the only other human nearby and which often disappear leaving no trace when resus is performed?

With the greatest of respect, what you appear to be doing here is simply looking for random answers which might make her innocent rather than actually looking at the evidence we currently have and weighing that against guilt or innocence. Conformation bias, essentially.That is not the way that murder investigations are carried out.

Some of the parents did complain and pick up on hygiene and hand washing practices being poor.
You make a point about this isn’t the way a murder investigation should be carried out- the way the investigation was carried out didn’t really reflect how a murder investigation should be carried out either. As soon as doctors had suspicions, why did they not request proper autopsies, why did they not mention their suspicions- I get the fact that maybe they wanted to be proved wrong (not wanting their worries to be confirmed) when they did have post mortems- but the people who conducted the few that were done have said themselves they would have looked deeper if asked or were at least kept in the loop about suspicions. Who was the person blocking that happening, if anyone? At that point they didn’t even have to identify a person, just state it was an unexplained death and medically they needed answers to improve their practice - but that didn’t happen.

 

[Ruthbullock]

As previously, that's assuming a perfect world. We don't live on one.

I have little doubt that any unfounded allegation against the doctor's would eventually be put right but not immediately. Surely you have some inkling as to what a complaint against a bunch of middle-aged men alleged to be harassing a relatively newly qualified young female nurse (who people referred to as "nice Lucy") would result in for these people given the age we currently live in? It would have dragged on for absolutely years and would have become extremely ugly, imo.

Entirely innocent people often have their lives utterly ruined by untrue complaints against them. Such complaints being made to the GMC or similar could potentially have been devastating to these people's lives. Also consider their families and the stress and shame they are going to be placed under and add to that the fact that no one would be able to say anything during the time the investigations were ongoing.

This isn't meant as a criticism but you and a lot of the other Letby supporters do present as being somewhat naïve at times. Life rarely goes as it should - especially when extremely serious allegations are thrown about or used as threats against people.

I agree with your post, but the irony is your middle paragraph is also the reason LL was not investigated earlier- so something is very wrong with the system.

 

[mrC]

seems to be going global now A Kiwi champion for Lucy Letby

 

[Sweeper2000]

side topic but im interested in gauging what everyone's opinion is on the medical expertise presented at Dr Lee's press conference? Its probably the strongest counter to the prosecutions narrative to date considering there really wasn't one at the trial itself.

Spose first of all im looking at it from the legal perspective is it even admissable at a court of appeal? if its found they simply looked for reasons no matter how obscure, how rare and how likely hten its not going to get far is it? is mcdonald towing the line there so to speak?

i actually would like to see how it is that they discounted what was found at the initial trial itself. if it does get somewhere i would also like to see if it got picked apart by what i would presume would be the prosecution.

 

[joltz]

they had nothing to fear from the gmc if they were telling the truth

They were telling the truth but they didn't have the benefit of a years long police investigation and the depth of knowledge we now possess. What they had was a series of deaths and collapses for which there was no reasonable explanation and a member of staff who was present at every single incident.
They expressed their concerns through the correct channels as they should have done and were told there was nothing wrong. They were then forced to write written apologies to Letby and had their careers threatened.

Instead of focusing on the consultants, instead ask yourself if the management behaved appropriately.