UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Ruthbullock]

Something I questioned during the trail was why did the doctors not got to LADO and report LL. The link I shared above states the the police themselves in May 2017 suggested reporting LL to them. I would love the doctors to explain why they didn’t do that themselves. The LADO is employed the local council and it is something everyone who works with children is aware of.

Allegations Management (LADO) - Cheshire West and Chester Safeguarding Children Partnership

www.cheshirewestscp.co.uk

 

[Furore]

Something I questioned during the trail was why did the doctors not got to LADO and report LL. The link I shared above states the the police themselves in May 2017 suggested reporting LL to them. I would love the doctors to explain why they didn’t do that themselves. The LADO is employed the local council and it is something everyone who works with children is aware of.

Allegations Management (LADO) - Cheshire West and Chester Safeguarding Children Partnership

www.cheshirewestscp.co.uk

Again I think you are too focused on the doctors’ actions - similarly from years of experience, they did what any average doctor would have done - trusted the whistleblowing processes and trust investigation, with Letby off clinical duties. You don’t really get much teaching on dealing with murderers in the NHS, and it’s almost religion trusts run everything in house.

The doctors didn’t have CCTV, they didn’t have witnesses - just like you guys don’t believe them. Why would they have thought the police would believe them when their own management didn’t?

And what is the alternative? They deliberately didn’t go to the police themselves because they were…lazy?…uncaring?…wanted to to keep LL out of jail? … if you follow your thought pattern to a logical conclusion it doesn’t really end anywhere that makes sense.

The good that will come out of the trial is that I think future clinicians will feel empowered to bypass obstructive trust management and go to the police.

JMOO but spending so much time trying to wrap your head around the whistleblowing processes, just reflects the state of whistleblowing in the NHS widely rather than the LL clinicians/case.

The Mid Staffs report, Bristol Heart Scandal, Nottingham maternity scandal…the theme is common. IMO the problem is trust reputations are big vote swingers and get directly involved with Whitehall when they hit the press. I’ve never thought much about it until the LL case tbh but realised how almost in their own kingdom they are (trusts) so I suppose it is hard from an external perspective not to understand why someone wouldn’t follow processes similar to an average employer.

Anyway that’s a problem for NHS as a whole, I don’t think it’s a smoking gun for clinician neglect in CoC - personally more interested in the other parties .

Wonder what will happen to the letby Liverpool cases under investigation in the mean time!

 

[mrC]

from the nursing times colleagues had no concerns Thirlwall Inquiry documents show former colleagues backed Letby | Nursing Times

 

[Furore]

Something I questioned during the trail was why did the doctors not got to LADO and report LL. The link I shared above states the the police themselves in May 2017 suggested reporting LL to them. I would love the doctors to explain why they didn’t do that themselves. The LADO is employed the local council and it is something everyone who works with children is aware of.

Allegations Management (LADO) - Cheshire West and Chester Safeguarding Children Partnership

www.cheshirewestscp.co.uk

In fairness have worked with children in medical settings for 18 years and not heard of this - would go through safeguarding for the trust. n=1 ofc!

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

The clinicians went to the police when they realized that management was going to put LL back on the unit without a real forensic investigation. Up until that point, they must have hoped that the systems already in place were going to do right by the patients and that this complex and confusing problem was going to be handled by professionals.

We also have the benefit of hindsight. They did not. They had to put the pieces together in real time and they had to overcome normalcy bias to even consider that someone was hurting the babies purposefully (rather than just incompetently). If you believe LL was justly found guilty - and I do - then she was trying to deceive everyone around her. We saw evidence of that in the trial. I'm glad the inquiry is happening because it's pretty clear that the CoCh was bureaucratically diseased (as others have put it) but it's not shocking that someone trying to conceal her criminal behaviors was successful for a time.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Again I think you are too focused on the doctors’ actions - similarly from years of experience, they did what any average doctor would have done - trusted the whistleblowing processes and trust investigation, with Letby off clinical duties. You don’t really get much teaching on dealing with murderers in the NHS, and it’s almost religion trusts run everything in house.

The doctors didn’t have CCTV, they didn’t have witnesses - just like you guys don’t believe them. Why would they have thought the police would believe them when their own management didn’t?

And what is the alternative? They deliberately didn’t go to the police themselves because they were…lazy?…uncaring?…wanted to to keep LL out of jail? … if you follow your thought pattern to a logical conclusion it doesn’t really end anywhere that makes sense.

The good that will come out of the trial is that I think future clinicians will feel empowered to bypass obstructive trust management and go to the police.

JMOO but spending so much time trying to wrap your head around the whistleblowing processes, just reflects the state of whistleblowing in the NHS widely rather than the LL clinicians/case.

The Mid Staffs report, Bristol Heart Scandal, Nottingham maternity scandal…the theme is common. IMO the problem is trust reputations are big vote swingers and get directly involved with Whitehall when they hit the press. I’ve never thought much about it until the LL case tbh but realised how almost in their own kingdom they are (trusts) so I suppose it is hard from an external perspective not to understand why someone wouldn’t follow processes similar to an average employer.

Anyway that’s a problem for NHS as a whole, I don’t think it’s a smoking gun for clinician neglect in CoC - personally more interested in the other parties .

Wonder what will happen to the letby Liverpool cases under investigation in the mean time!

What I’m focused on is the doctors actions- why because they state they believed LL was causing unexplained deaths and then sat on it for 2 years. Their excuses for not acting sooner involve how hard done to they were. This isn’t true and nor was it part of the trial as they were not on trial. Their own clinical care failings are also being blamed on anyone but themselves- shouting loudly about inaccurate notes, being short staffed etc, despite going through university they all apparently missed the safeguarding training and only knew about sending one email and then whispering about it for a year- they have some responsibility and autonomy about their own choices within that unit. There was not one route available for them to whistleblower, it didn’t gain attention by some people as it came across as bitter and lacking any solid foundations. These aren’t people with limited skills and lacking the ability to make logical decisions- these were people who had the ability to insist the babies were seen by the pathologists, to order relevant blood tests and ensure unexplained deaths were recorded on the system- that doesn’t even come under the remit of whistle blowing, that’s just doing their job properly. The reports and investigations that were done following their initial email complaint did include the information that the trust suspected LL, they just didn’t have that information shared with them and why should they- it shouldn’t stop them being vigilant and doing further tests or investigations if deaths seemed unexplained. I don’t buy into the school of thought that if you suspect someone genuinely as much as they claimed in the trial you would just send an email, and I have yet to read anything that suggests they even tried to proactively do anything more. Are they to blame, not directly, but nor are they completely innocent victims who were overpowered by an inefficient management.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

No one suspected murder at the death of baby A. It took some time before these events repeated and congealed into suspicion and then the suspicion became stronger. No one knew what was happening. Things would go quiet. There were reviews being done. It seems someone is going to get to the bottom of things. By the time the doctors were themselves strongly convinced after the collapses of the two triplets in 206 - that something deliberate and maliciousis happening, that a particularperson is connected, that management is not acting with urgency - they got Letby off the unit within a few days. Then they believe the trust is investigating. Then in 2017, they are told LL is coming back on the unit and this catalyzes police involvement. It's not like someone saw her smothering a baby in 2015 and then did absolutely nothing for two years. It's disingenuous to represent the events that way.

Timeline of Lucy Letby’s attacks on babies and when alarm was raised

How events unfolded in neonatal unit where killer nurse worked at Countess of Chester hospital

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ruthbullock]

The clinicians went to the police when they realized that management was going to put LL back on the unit without a real forensic investigation. Up until that point, they must have hoped that the systems already in place were going to

The trust went to the police, not the clinicians. I’m not sure where you have read otherwise. The clinicians sent in their own concerns and reports to the police, several meetings down the line (the investigation was already ongoing and the trust had two meetings with the police prior to that point). The clinicians sent in an email and subsequently got admonished by the police as they didn’t copy the email to the hospital trust and the police insisted that they did that. The trust said it had no new information they weren’t aware of when they received it, the police also in this third meeting about the ongoing investigation requested that they also speak to the paediatric lead who sent the email and we all know this happened. The consultants didn’t themselves go to the police until several months into the police investigation- and by going to the police- we actually mean they sent an email.

 

[Ruthbullock]

No one suspected murder at the death of baby A. It took some time before these events repeated and congealed into suspicion and then the suspicion became stronger. No one knew what was happening. Things would go quiet. There were reviews being done. It seems someone is going to get to the bottom of things. By the time the doctors were themselves strongly convinced after the collapses of the two triplets in 206 - that something deliberate and maliciousis happening, that a particularperson is connected, that management is not acting with urgency - they got Letby off the unit within a few days. Then they believe the trust is investigating. Then in 2017, they are told LL is coming back on the unit and this catalyzes police involvement. It's not like someone saw her smothering a baby in 2015 and then did absolutely nothing for two years. It's disingenuous to represent the events that way.

Timeline of Lucy Letby’s attacks on babies and when alarm was raised

How events unfolded in neonatal unit where killer nurse worked at Countess of Chester hospital

www.theguardian.com

What I’m saying is incompetence is not ok, unexpected deaths not being sent to the coroner and no one being concerned by the overall increased number of deaths shouldn’t have been ignored- You are right the first occasion wouldn’t normally raise any red flags, maybe not the second- but how many in such close succession for most people would cause a concern (not jumping straight to suspecting there is a murderer on the unit) if we believe what we are told about the strange rash that was so memorable, whilst so unusual on child A- lots of average professionals would be curious about that and be mentioning it to colleagues and consultants to develop their own knowledge, it’s surprising that the trainee doctors who will have still had lecturers to ask questions to didn’t raise it. I use child A purely as an example, but you could pick any child prior to the triplets being on the unit.
Apathy because of the belief something is being investigated elsewhere, when part of your role is to safeguard your patients, whilst your concerns are growing as things are still going wrong, people naturally start to look for other ways to be listened to and fight a bit louder.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

The trust went to the police, not the clinicians. I’m not sure where you have read otherwise. The clinicians sent in their own concerns and reports to the police, several meetings down the line (the investigation was already ongoing and the trust had two meetings with the police prior to that point). The clinicians sent in an email and subsequently got admonished by the police as they didn’t copy the email to the hospital trust and the police insisted that they did that. The trust said it had no new information they weren’t aware of when they received it, the police also in this third meeting about the ongoing investigation requested that they also speak to the paediatric lead who sent the email and we all know this happened. The consultants didn’t themselves go to the police until several months into the police investigation- and by going to the police- we actually mean they sent an email.

Yes you are correct. I was thinking of the email they sent to the police once the investigation had been opened.

I'm curious- what do you think happened at the CoCh from 2015 to 2017? Not what should the consultants have done but what do you think happened that explains both the collapses and everyone's behavior?

 

[joltz]

from the nursing times colleagues had no concerns Thirlwall Inquiry documents show former colleagues backed Letby | Nursing Times

And? No one saw Letby committing the murders, so that's not really surprising. It doesn't really mean anything at all. It took 10 months of evidence collated over several years, with thousands of manhours to piece together what actually happened.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

The trust went to the police, not the clinicians. I’m not sure where you have read otherwise. The clinicians sent in their own concerns and reports to the police, several meetings down the line (the investigation was already ongoing and the trust had two meetings with the police prior to that point). The clinicians sent in an email and subsequently got admonished by the police as they didn’t copy the email to the hospital trust and the police insisted that they did that. The trust said it had no new information they weren’t aware of when they received it, the police also in this third meeting about the ongoing investigation requested that they also speak to the paediatric lead who sent the email and we all know this happened. The consultants didn’t themselves go to the police until several months into the police investigation- and by going to the police- we actually mean they sent an email.

Tony Chambers first wrote to the police on 2nd May 2017.

Dr Jayaram wrote his email (with reports) to the police eight days later, on 10th May 2017. I don't know where you get several months into the police investigation from.

I would be interested to see this police admonishment you refer to. Please would you link to it.

The consultants met with the police on 15th May 2017.


All of this was linked in the last thread. UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

 

[mrC]

from the gaurdion why did the remove jane hutton from the investigation Lucy Letby: police and CPS handling of case raises new concerns about convictions

 

[Ruthbullock]

Tony Chambers first wrote to the police on 2nd May 2017.

Dr Jayaram wrote his email (with reports) to the police eight days later, on 10th May 2017. I don't know where you get several months into the police investigation from.

I would be interested to see this police admonishment you refer to. Please would you link to it.

The consultants met with the police on 15th May 2017.


All of this was linked in the last thread. UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #36

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0107036.pdf

 

[Sweeper2000]

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0107036.pdf

you need to post a page reference, big document.

 

[mrC]

why was rgis statement kept from the defence that definite grounds for appeal? Statement supporting Lucy Letby's innocence 'was kept from her team'

 

[Charlot123]

Again I think you are too focused on the doctors’ actions - similarly from years of experience, they did what any average doctor would have done - trusted the whistleblowing processes and trust investigation, with Letby off clinical duties. You don’t really get much teaching on dealing with murderers in the NHS, and it’s almost religion trusts run everything in house.

The doctors didn’t have CCTV, they didn’t have witnesses - just like you guys don’t believe them. Why would they have thought the police would believe them when their own management didn’t?

And what is the alternative? They deliberately didn’t go to the police themselves because they were…lazy?…uncaring?…wanted to to keep LL out of jail? … if you follow your thought pattern to a logical conclusion it doesn’t really end anywhere that makes sense.

The good that will come out of the trial is that I think future clinicians will feel empowered to bypass obstructive trust management and go to the police.

JMOO but spending so much time trying to wrap your head around the whistleblowing processes, just reflects the state of whistleblowing in the NHS widely rather than the LL clinicians/case.

The Mid Staffs report, Bristol Heart Scandal, Nottingham maternity scandal…the theme is common. IMO the problem is trust reputations are big vote swingers and get directly involved with Whitehall when they hit the press. I’ve never thought much about it until the LL case tbh but realised how almost in their own kingdom they are (trusts) so I suppose it is hard from an external perspective not to understand why someone wouldn’t follow processes similar to an average employer.

Anyway that’s a problem for NHS as a whole, I don’t think it’s a smoking gun for clinician neglect in CoC - personally more interested in the other parties .

Wonder what will happen to the letby Liverpool cases under investigation in the mean time!

So why couldn’t they install CCTV? I am sorry but Lucy wasn’t there all the time. They could have done it, it costs little.

 

[JosieJo]

why was rgis statement kept from the defence that definite grounds for appeal? Statement supporting Lucy Letby's innocence 'was kept from her team'

She wasn't charged with anything for this baby was she ?

 

[mrC]

no but why was it kept from the defense there supposed to disclose statements like that

 

[mrC]

if jane hattan is so clueless why did the police contact her in the first place and there is also the matter of failing to disclose it to the defence