UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Tortoise]

This is big news! I am not as well informed about the British legal system as I would like to be. Those who are, can you share what your thoughts are on this development?

My thoughts are a few people are probably sweating right now.

IMO they are easy to spot, as the ones at the inquiry who offered qualified apologies to the families, couldn't give straight answers to the questions, and didn't adequately acknowledge their serious failings.

 

[Tortoise]

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

 

[Parker Knoll]

An extra DM podcast episode has just dropped about this new development. They were actually working on a new podcast that’s coming next week on this case and it sound pretty damning. It’s looking at the CoC in depth.

 

[Sweeper2000]

 

[Tortoise]

My thoughts are a few people are probably sweating right now.

IMO they are easy to spot, as the ones at the inquiry who offered qualified apologies to the families, couldn't give straight answers to the questions, and didn't adequately acknowledge their serious failings.

There's also the matter of Dr Brearey's emails that went missing, which came up in Susan Gilby's evidence to the inquiry. IMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

that podcast is interesting. the people who have been identified as potential suspects have been notified although he investigation is in early stages. I'm sure some are sweating buckets.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

I don't know i'm definitely no expert on the results fo the enquiry but im wondering if the five conditions are met?

"a) the defendant owed an existing duty of care to the victim;

b) the defendant negligently breached that duty of care;

c) it was reasonably foreseeable that the breach of that duty gave rise to a serious and obvious risk of death;

d) the breach of that duty caused the death of the victim;

e) the circumstances of the breach were truly exceptionally bad and so reprehensible as to justify the conclusion that it amounted to gross negligence and required criminal sanction."

I can see the first four seem solid enough but the fifth? maximum sentence is life imprisonment, recomended is 3 to twenty years. Its going to be very very difficult to argue that their previous experience with docs blaming nurses was enough ground to not take action in regard to letby. someone is going to prison im almost certain of it.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Police start manslaughter inquiry into senior individuals at Letby hospital

Officers say they have widened investigations despite questions over nurse’s convictions for killing babies

www.theguardian.com

"Letby’s new barrister, Mark McDonald, told the Guardian: “The timing of this is of real concern. Is this really an attempt again by the police to control the narrative right before submissions are being made to Thirlwall for it to pause.

“Why are they doing this now? Is this another attempt to control the narrative? Particularly when there is substantial expert evidence that points the finger in a different direction.”

McDonald said the development raised “serious question marks” about the force’s decision making."

I hear maccie d say that and wonder how it applies to himself with his loud press conference of uninformed individuals.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Breaking news

Lucy Letby: Police investigation into hospital widened to include gross negligence manslaughter

An investigation into corporate manslaughter was launched in October 2023 following the trial and conviction of the ex-nurse - but Cheshire Constabulary have now widened their probe.

news.sky.com

Wow! That is pretty huge!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

I don't know i'm definitely no expert on the results fo the enquiry but im wondering if the five conditions are met?

"a) the defendant owed an existing duty of care to the victim;

b) the defendant negligently breached that duty of care;

c) it was reasonably foreseeable that the breach of that duty gave rise to a serious and obvious risk of death;

d) the breach of that duty caused the death of the victim;

e) the circumstances of the breach were truly exceptionally bad and so reprehensible as to justify the conclusion that it amounted to gross negligence and required criminal sanction."

I can see the first four seem solid enough but the fifth? maximum sentence is life imprisonment, recomended is 3 to twenty years. Its going to be very very difficult to argue that their previous experience with docs blaming nurses was enough ground to not take action in regard to letby. someone is going to prison im almost certain of it.

The police haven't said who they're looking at in this investigation so it's not really possible to give much comment on how likely actual charges may be.

I suspect that any prosecution is going to be very difficult to pursue. Has there ever even been a case where charges like these have been brought where someone else has already been convicted of murder, I wonder?

 

[Sweeper2000]

The police haven't said who they're looking at in this investigation so it's not really possible to give much comment on how likely actual charges may be.

I suspect that any prosecution is going to be very difficult to pursue. Has there ever even been a case where charges like these have been brought where someone else has already been convicted of murder, I wonder?

thats such a good question. we do know murders, harm and attempted murders were made after the management decided to not act on the docs suspicions and thus can in part be attributed to them and thats when the charges come in. I am at least sure that i know of no other cases where a already convicted murderers murders can be directly attributed to other people though. The prosecution will have to make a strong case that the docs concerns should ahve been acted on, I think senior management not related to the units management also said any unexplained deaths have to be investigated right? so thats a start right off the bat and I think baby A fits that profile. wow this thing just keeps unravelling doesnt it? a solid decade or more might be this things timeframe, wow.

 

[Parker Knoll]

The police haven't said who they're looking at in this investigation so it's not really possible to give much comment on how likely actual charges may be.

I suspect that any prosecution is going to be very difficult to pursue. Has there ever even been a case where charges like these have been brought where someone else has already been convicted of murder, I wonder?

I don’t think so … I can’t find anything anywhere.

 

[May72031]

Dr. Phil Hammond continues to humiliate himself.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1900272827166498916

 

[Furore]

all JMO

- wow tortoise has the memory bank of an elephant !!
- I think Ian Harvey and the nursing manager were grossly negligent because they had a duty of care to the infants, and a duty of care to provide candour, instead they actively obstructed investigation and actively obstructed whistleblowing and actively obstructed notifying further agencies
- moreover there were unexplained deaths that absolutely should have been investigated formally and with forensic detail and safeguarding members should have nailed these early
- the Letby lawyer is playing the press and the media, not the law - it is not his place to comment on corporate/gross negligence manslaughter for those not his client, and knowing the police will charge managers with not stopping letby, he has to spin the press narrative now before more evidence against her is heard at their trials
- these investigations will have taken months and time to proceed to charges, and the police certainly haven’t invented them in the last month since the press conference ; a certain bar is required to press charges especially given they are more nebulous
- Phil Hammond is an idiot IMO - he needs to remember people’s children died in awful circumstances and we owe them as a society to ensure a) this cannot happen again b) managers are accountable to whistleblowers c) you cannot make a series of catastrophic decisions that lead to further harm or deaths - like insisting Letby be allowed back on clinical duties, when no investigation had cleared her, or letting her be on the patient safety team (where she had access to certain records, data and the value of a well worded Datix) - the very team investigating some of her missteps…and then skip off to France or wherever or get a job at a new trust, like some managers did - there have to be consequences. People can and do die because of a) individual’s actions - be it neglect or malice and b) poorly managed systems that should detect such individuals So Letby murdering and failure by those in positions of power failing to take patient safety concerns seriously, killed more children than Letby alone in a functioning system would have been able to.
- convicting such managers to be honest is the only way to make future managers take whistleblowers seriously, and provide wider assurance in the NHS that patient safety concerns are valued - it would have a seismic effect on the culture the NHS trying so hard to build

IMOO

 

[JosieJo]

Police start manslaughter inquiry into senior individuals at Letby hospital

Officers say they have widened investigations despite questions over nurse’s convictions for killing babies

www.theguardian.com

"Letby’s new barrister, Mark McDonald, told the Guardian: “The timing of this is of real concern. Is this really an attempt again by the police to control the narrative right before submissions are being made to Thirlwall for it to pause.

“Why are they doing this now? Is this another attempt to control the narrative? Particularly when there is substantial expert evidence that points the finger in a different direction.”

McDonald said the development raised “serious question marks” about the force’s decision making."

I hear maccie d say that and wonder how it applies to himself with his loud press conference of uninformed individuals.

Pot kettle and black spring to mind

 

[JosieJo]

So presumably the CP are taking no notice what so ever of the new defence PR campaign

 

[joltz]

I can think of at least 3-4 of the management who should be sweating. I think they will be charged. The evidence is right there for all to see at thirlwall.

 

[mrC]

the investigation may not come to anything

 

[Marantz4250b]

Dr. Phil Hammond continues to humiliate himself.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1900272827166498916

This guy is a complete idiot - as another poster has pointed out.

He completely misses the point of what gross negligence manslaughter constitutes. It doesn't mean that another person or persons were attacking babies - it means that other people who owed a duty to them negligently failed to pritect them - that failure could be in the form of not protecting them from a serial murderer!

It's not a particularly difficult concept to grasp but, yet again, we have people trying to muddy the waters with the whole "probabilities" malarkey.

 

[Marantz4250b]

the investigation may not come to anything

Agreed.

For the first time, I think.