UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Ruthbullock]

What have supposed staff shortages got to do with Letby's killing spree?

Hospitals up and down the country suffer from staff shortages.

Unless you're saying if more staff were on the ward, Letby's opportunities to attack babies would have been limited.

The obvious point is if there were the appropriate levels of staffing things might have been noticed quicker and paperwork been more complete and accurate, and opportunities would have been somewhat removed- absolutely.
Another point is if there was no doctor or consultant available at points- which is an accurate depiction of what was happening, even when there was someone rotated on, they were often busy in the childrens ward and there was a delay- that constitutes poor care- it doesn’t matter where they were located at home, another ward, another hospital- they were not always available when babies were in need of resuscitation or other serious incidents- the appropriate staffing levels would have stopped staff being spread so thinly.
The consultants accepting over the bed limit and not transferring patients when the unit was at capacity and they were short staffed is also means poorer care would be available for those patients, for the same reasons above.

 

[Tortoise]

NNU manager Nurse Eirian Powell, evidence to the Inquiry about staffing numbers -

Q. Staffing issues at paragraph 28. You tell us you were doing a lot of work around staffing issues and indeed I think one of the nurses we have heard from was in the office with you at some time and realised how much time you spent on this kind of stuff, putting together data and material around staffing; was that a big thing for you?

A. Yes, yes. Because it was -- it was a --staffing issues were for different people at different times.

Q. Yes. You say: "I do not feel the staffing issues were ever fully addressed and I am aware that neonatal nursing staffing shortages was a national issue." How were you aware it was a national issue from these meetings that you went to?

A. When, when we actually go to the Neonatal Network meetings this was discussed quite often, and it was realised that a lot of us were not measuring the same things. I think the incidents were saying we are not measuring apples with apples and pears with pears, we are measuring bodies on the unit, feet on the ground, as opposed to who they are and the calibre of staff. So we did quite a bit of work with the Network with regards to that because a lot of BadgerNet doesn't actually show that, what your staffing is. Our staffing at the time I think was 60:40 ratio, of 60 qualified against 40 unqualified, but they were untrained as in trained nurses. They were qualified because they were nursery nurses but they were not registered nurses.

Q. You say: "I can, however, say that the NNU was always covered by the appropriate skill mix of staff but this was often not to the British Association for Perinatal Medicine standard."

A. Well, in its entirety.

Q. Right.

A. It wasn't actually -- through people, through staff changing their shifts to accommodate the acuity and working overtime, this is how this was met to the BAPM standards at that time. But it's, it's inevitable that burnout will happen because you can't keep doing that all the time.

[...]

Q. You say, as I have said earlier, in your view the NNU because always covered by the appropriate skill mix of staff. Does that remain your view that it was?

A. For that time. And that's only through --I mean, normally when you have a week of staffing your off-duty, most hospitals, you know what you are working from Monday to Sunday. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case on the unit but that was kind of the way it worked. When you had the busy moments things were changing and things changed anyway from people being off sick. But for the acuity, to match the acuity with the staffing, we would have to change staffing in order to accommodate that.

Q. Were you generally satisfied with the standard of care that your nurses were providing --

A. Yes.

Q. -- leaving aside what we are going to come to, but when you observed them, some were doing extra shifts but when you observed, you were content with the way it was being run?

A. I was.

Q. Did you think it was safe the way it was being run?

A. It wasn't -- I can't think of the word, it's not enduring, you can't keep doing that. It's not feasible to continue to request staff to come in to do extra, for staff to change their shifts from nights to days, days to nights. It's not in their best interests or well-being.

Q. Did you have a time when no one would come in and you were stuck or generally did you manage to get people in?

A. They were so accommodating. They were amazing.

Q. Well, from what some of them have said it felt like a family to some of them.

A. Yes.

Q. Was it quite a tight ship --

A. It was.

Q. -- in terms of them getting on and being prepared to come to work?

A. I mean, everybody has likes and dislikes but we were all very professional and we got on with the job.

Q. You say very professional. In an article in a newspaper a nurse anonymously speaking to the newspaper said that how: during night shifts nurses on the ward would pull a name out of a hat and whoever got picked would be able to leave early, despite being in charge of a baby, and they would leave a handwritten note by the infant leaving the baby without oversight for hours at a time.

A. No. I don't know where that's coming from. But if the, if the unit was quiet, as in that you had six staff and you sent -- say, four had gone home, there was two left or three left, the one allocated would never go home.

Q. That is what Ashleigh Hudson told us.

A. Sorry?

Q. That is exactly what Nurse Ashleigh Hudson told us --

A. Yes, I'd never send an allocated -- an allocated nurse is somebody that stays with that child throughout.

Q. But it might be that someone could go, if they had done a lot of shifts or overtime, if it was quiet someone could leave a bit earlier?

A. They could leave a bit earlier at the end of the shift but that time would be minused from their total running time owing.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Thirlwall-Inquiry-17-October-2024.pdf

 

[mrC]

i think dr Jayeam Goose is truly cooked Lucy Letby could be freed after email casts doubt on court claim

 

[WaneLyrical]

Genuinely interested to hear people’s thoughts on this: an email written by Jayaram in May 2017 (so approx 2 months after the first mention of Baby K), in which he appears to be describing Event 1, and writes that Letby called him to help with the desaturation? Seems to be a very different account to that which evolved where he caught her virtually red handed?

 

[Tortoise]

Where does it specify which of the three desaturations it was?


12:42pm
The trial is resuming after a short break, with Simon Driver now prosecuting.
Giving evidence next is a nurse who cannot be named due to reporting restrictions. She was a neonatal nurse shift leader at the Countess of Chester Hospital in February 2016.
She says she has some independent memory of events that day. She was part of the day team which began the shift at 7.30am.

12:50pm
The nurse recalls there was a handover 'huddle' which took place at about 7.25am. At that point Lucy Letby gave a 'call for help' from nursery 1 and all nursing staff and Dr Jayaram went into the room.
She says Lucy Letby had her hands in the incubator, 'Neopuffing' Child K. The nurse said she didn't know the baby at all, and the handover had not taken place at this stage. She recalls other nursing staff and Dr Jayaram went to help, and had noted the ET tube had moved in Child K further than it should have gone, so the tube was removed.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, June 20 - prosecution continues case

The retrial of Lucy Letby, who stands accused of attempting to murder baby girl Child K, continues at Manchester Crown Court today (Thursday, June…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Officer Dibble]

i think dr Jayeam Goose is truly cooked Lucy Letby could be freed after email casts doubt on court claim

well if its true then it is shocking in my opinion and potentially changes a lot.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Genuinely interested to hear people’s thoughts on this: an email written by Jayaram in May 2017 (so approx 2 months after the first mention of Baby K), in which he appears to be describing Event 1, and writes that Letby called him to help with the desaturation? Seems to be a very different account to that which evolved where he caught her virtually red handed?

what are your thoughts?

 

[WaneLyrical]

Where does it specify which of the three desaturations it was?


12:42pm
The trial is resuming after a short break, with Simon Driver now prosecuting.
Giving evidence next is a nurse who cannot be named due to reporting restrictions. She was a neonatal nurse shift leader at the Countess of Chester Hospital in February 2016.
She says she has some independent memory of events that day. She was part of the day team which began the shift at 7.30am.

12:50pm
The nurse recalls there was a handover 'huddle' which took place at about 7.25am. At that point Lucy Letby gave a 'call for help' from nursery 1 and all nursing staff and Dr Jayaram went into the room.
She says Lucy Letby had her hands in the incubator, 'Neopuffing' Child K. The nurse said she didn't know the baby at all, and the handover had not taken place at this stage. She recalls other nursing staff and Dr Jayaram went to help, and had noted the ET tube had moved in Child K further than it should have gone, so the tube was removed.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, June 20 - prosecution continues case

The retrial of Lucy Letby, who stands accused of attempting to murder baby girl Child K, continues at Manchester Crown Court today (Thursday, June…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

The leaked email says the desaturation happened at 3:50am, so I can’t see how it could refer to either of the other events.

 

[WaneLyrical]

what are your thoughts?

I was never convinced by the Baby K case anyway, I felt it was brought simply so Jayaram could testify to catching her in the act. Wasn’t surprised to find the first jury hung, and then it came out about incorrect swipe data. Then it was discovered Jayaram had sat on it for a YEAR before telling a soul, about him seemingly walking in on someone trying to kill a 25wk baby.

So sadly I’m not even surprised to see this today. And to think this was originally a murder charge.

 

[katydid23]

so why would 25 of the world experts say there was poor when there wasnt there not being paid for any of this

That's a good question. Why would they?
Why would they work so hard trying to free a serial killer when they really don't know what they are talking about.

Nurse Letby killed and assaulted many babies. There is no doubt about that. There was obvious corroboration of her guilt during the long, involved trial.

Are these 25 'world experts' correct that NHS is understaffed and sometimes incompetent? Yes, there are some problems there.

But 2 things can be correct at the same time. There can be staffing problems and training problems at NHS AND there can be a Sociopathic Munchausen-by-proxy serial killer working as a nurse.

 

[katydid23]

The obvious point is if there were the appropriate levels of staffing things might have been noticed quicker and paperwork been more complete and accurate, and opportunities would have been somewhat removed- absolutely.
Another point is if there was no doctor or consultant available at points- which is an accurate depiction of what was happening, even when there was someone rotated on, they were often busy in the childrens ward and there was a delay- that constitutes poor care- it doesn’t matter where they were located at home, another ward, another hospital- they were not always available when babies were in need of resuscitation or other serious incidents- the appropriate staffing levels would have stopped staff being spread so thinly.
The consultants accepting over the bed limit and not transferring patients when the unit was at capacity and they were short staffed is also means poorer care would be available for those patients, for the same reasons above.

But that doesn't negate that there was a serial killer wearing a nurse's uniform on the staff. Sure, maybe she would have been caught sooner and possibly prevented from doing some of her assaults if there was more staff on duty.

It's unfair to try and portray Letby as a poor victim in order to attack NHS. It's not necessary. Both things can be true.

 

[Charlot123]

The Metro has a revealing article about how wacky some of the Letbyists are...
Inside the minds of Lucy Letby supporters who dream about her 'restraining them'

Well, there are pervs around any notorious person, I remember the woman who professed her love the moment BK was arrested, too, but I would not lump all of people following this case together. I follow archeologists and Chester cathedral is a landmark. COCH and Chester sounded familiar.

About the newspapers. They called LL “baby killer” way before the case started. If they are wrong… the press is subject to defamation lawsuits. JMO. So the press may not be too interested in opening the case.

 

[Charlot123]

That's a good question. Why would they?
Why would they work so hard trying to free a serial killer when they really don't know what they are talking about.

Nurse Letby killed and assaulted many babies. There is no doubt about that. There was obvious corroboration of her guilt during the long, involved trial.

Are these 25 'world experts' correct that NHS is understaffed and sometimes incompetent? Yes, there are some problems there.

But 2 things can be correct at the same time. There can be staffing problems and training problems at NHS AND there can be a Sociopathic Munchausen-by-proxy serial killer working as a nurse.

Honestly, I think we have to be careful about throwing diagnoses at someone who we haven’t seen, but Munchausen-by-proxy, especially. The diagnosis emerged in the 70es, was likely overused in the 90es and should probably be obsolete or very rare. A huge hospital in US is obliged to pay a compensation - not for poor treatment, but for wrongly diagnosing MBP and keeping a child away from the mother. There is another lawsuit in PA.
Here is article from UK. Even the author of the term felt it was used frivolously.

Persistent Problems With the Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy Label

After nearly 30 years of clinical and legal experience, the definition of Munchausen syndrome by proxy remains controversial. As a result, mothers who present the problems of their children in ways perceived as unusual or problematic have become entangled in legal battles that should have been...

jaapl.org

I think some of the cases of MBP will be revised.

 

[Charlot123]

Throw in a nursing shortage- that even the parents noticed

The staffing issues extended to Letby’s nursing colleagues, whose rota was a fifth below national guidelines, with few qualified to treat the sickest babies.

Gibbs said the shortage of nurses had been a “longstanding problem” on the unit – it had been identified as a risk five years earlier, in 2010 – but that staffing levels were slightly better than on comparable wards in Cheshire and Merseyside.

Powell, the ward manager, told the inquirythey lost two of their most qualified nurses – advanced neonatal practitioners (ANNPs) – some years before the spike in deaths for “financial reasons”. Other NHS trusts regard ANNPs as an “integral part” of neonatal units but the Countess of Chester was without one, even though it was treating a growing number of vulnerable premature babies.

Parents could tell the unit was stretched. “There was a board on the wall that said how many staff should be on duty and how many staff were actually on duty,” said the mother of Child N, a newborn boy whom Letby was convicted of attempting to kill. “The board said five or six should be working, but there were usually three or sometimes four.”

What we’ve learned so far from the Lucy Letby inquiry: ‘cold’ character, missed opportunities and staff shortages

The Thirlwall inquiry has uncovered new details about Letby and the neonatal unit on which she worked

www.theguardian.com

When I hear about shortages of staff, I immediately have questions about finances.

There should be transparency about:

Did the funds allocated to COCH increase annually commensurate with inflation?

If there was an increase in service area, was it reflected in the funds allocated to the hospital?

What was the annual CEO salary? How did it grow from 2012 to 2016?
Same for: consultants salaries?
Same for: nurses salaries?

This is where no one has looked. If they fired ANNPs and hired younger nurses, of course it could have led to the fall in the quality of care. Lucy who was invested in the house and picking up more shifts could have been overworked.

How did they allow firing ANNPs without lowering the level of the unit acuity?

I am far from blaming Tony Chambers for immediately jumping on “the babykiller” bandwagon, but I suspect he was not the best CEO.

 

[Charlot123]

well if its true then it is shocking in my opinion and potentially changes a lot.

It is shocking. Here is how he positioned himself in 2023.

It went so far as being republished in major Indian newspapers. I often go to them as they give rather unbiased and broad view of the world,

To be honest, I always felt that Dr. Jay possessed a regular British mentality, it is where you are raised and live that matters.

But essentially, he was deceiving two countries, the one that bore him and the one that raised him. Not to say, British judiciary system.

"Complete Betrayal": Indian-Origin Doctor Who Raised Alarm Over Killer UK Nurse

A UK-born Indian-origin consultant paediatrician at a hospital in northern England is among those who raised concerns and helped convict a nurse found guilty of killing seven babies by a UK court on Friday.

www.ndtv.com

 

[mrC]

thats just one email There is more to come

 

[Charlot123]

What have supposed staff shortages got to do with Letby's killing spree?

Hospitals up and down the country suffer from staff shortages.

Unless you're saying if more staff were on the ward, Letby's opportunities to attack babies would have been limited.

Any unit can potentially suffer from staff shortages.

But no one has yet done a study, all other factors controlled for, how would mortality in NICU change if, say, instead of “one nurse per one bed (cot)” allocation, it changes to “one nurse per two cots”? Or “one nurse per three cots”?

I know that in other areas (ATC) shortage of ATC on staff let to horrible catastrophes. I expect that the same holds true for medicine.

And the nurse working there said they pulled out papers with names of who could leave earlier. Not that I don't understand them, they were tired, but that might have led to drop in attention in the remaining staff.

That's a good question. Why would they?
Why would they work so hard trying to free a serial killer when they really don't know what they are talking about.

Nurse Letby killed and assaulted many babies. There is no doubt about that. There was obvious corroboration of her guilt during the long, involved trial.

Are these 25 'world experts' correct that NHS is understaffed and sometimes incompetent? Yes, there are some problems there.

But 2 things can be correct at the same time. There can be staffing problems and training problems at NHS AND there can be a Sociopathic Munchausen-by-proxy serial killer working as a nurse.

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think that they knowingly accused innocent person, but I can't put it behind overworked and underslept doctors that one of them became unduly suspicious and the rest...shared the flawed thinking, so to say?

 

[Ruthbullock]

But that doesn't negate that there was a serial killer wearing a nurse's uniform on the staff. Sure, maybe she would have been caught sooner and possibly prevented from doing some of her assaults if there was more staff on duty.

It's unfair to try and portray Letby as a poor victim in order to attack NHS. It's not necessary. Both things can be true.

I have stated numerous times both things can be true. Letby wasn’t even mentioned in my post. It is however becoming more difficult to believe that the evidence against her is sufficient, and some of the gaps in evidence that Lady Thirlwall has highlighted and the families law teams, is basic paperwork and actions the doctors and consultants should have been taking whether they believed she was a murderer or not.

 

[Ruthbullock]

Genuinely interested to hear people’s thoughts on this: an email written by Jayaram in May 2017 (so approx 2 months after the first mention of Baby K), in which he appears to be describing Event 1, and writes that Letby called him to help with the desaturation? Seems to be a very different account to that which evolved where he caught her virtually red handed?

If the rumours coming out about where this email is from- Operation Duet (which I haven’t seen or heard of before)- it appears they are sharing and in possession of much more information, that wasn’t requested for operation hummingbird. This is rumoured to be the name of the separate investigation into corporate manslaughter.

 

[Charlot123]

.

They are talking as professionals- this is embarrassing for everyone that they communicated there concerns about someone who they thought was murdering babies in this way

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0103217.pdf

What really attracts attention is the name of a person from Alder-Hay unit. Susie Holt. How is she connected to Lucy? Did she train her? Was there something personal between them? Or is she another official?

I always felt that the arms of that case grew from Alder Hey. Could someone be very suspicious from the time of LL training? Surely? Could it be something personal? Absolutely.