UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #37

[Charlot123]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Today I listened to the interview of Dr. Evans. He, while totally brushing aside the statistics, said a very interesting thing,

He said, "the neonatologists who were not at the trials and did not read clinical statements from the nurses and doctors."

So here is what drew my attention. I have read many times that only senior specialists accused LL. Neither the junior doctors nor - and it is important - nurses in NICU.

But Evans is alluding to the clinical statements of the nurses implying as I think that there was something in them that supported the prosecution.

Does anyone know what he is talking about? Is there some information specifically from the nurses that would point at Lucy's guilt but never disclosed? Or did I miss it during the trial?

It is important.

 

[mrC]

bany k is the baby jayram cliamed lucy letby wasnt trying to help his email would sugest that was a rather missleading statement

 

[Charlot123]

I followed this case quite closely but not on this site. What’s the consensus here on the safety of the conviction? A lot has been written in the British press proclaiming Letby`s innocence and dismissing the notes she made (which came very close to a confession) as a result of stress and possible mental health issues. I just can’t imagine an innocent person accused of murder writing I did it, and I am evil, in any circumstances.

There is a technique called dumping. And in general, writing and journaling can be used in therapy. Now imagine that LL is innocent. She has had this police interview, found out that doctors accused her of being a murderer. If she is not guilty - it is a horrible shock. A person probably can't sleep. Gets anxious. Gets lots of racing thoughts. Gets up. Purs all these disjointed thoughts, in their abundance, as they come, on paper, just dumps them. And leaves.

Now: she doesn't throw this sheet out like a murderer would have done. She knows she's accused, she knows these words might be damning...but still, keeps them?

I think she has some problem getting rid of paper. We all have own rituals, I'd even say, hoarding own stuff, but if paper is her area this could explain keeping handout sheets and these post it notes.

(Maximum that a SK ever left were drawings by Israel Keys before he killed himself. Has anyone ever read of a SK keeping confessions?)

 

[Tortoise]

There is a technique called dumping. And in general, writing and journaling can be used in therapy. Now imagine that LL is innocent. She has had this police interview, found out that doctors accused her of being a murderer. If she is not guilty - it is a horrible shock. A person probably can't sleep. Gets anxious. Gets lots of racing thoughts. Gets up. Purs all these disjointed thoughts, in their abundance, as they come, on paper, just dumps them. And leaves.

Now: she doesn't throw this sheet out like a murderer would have done. She knows she's accused, she knows these words might be damning...but still, keeps them?

I think she has some problem getting rid of paper. We all have own rituals, I'd even say, hoarding own stuff, but if paper is her area this could explain keeping handout sheets and these post it notes.

(Maximum that a SK ever left were drawings by Israel Keys before he killed himself. Has anyone ever read of a SK keeping confessions?)

<modsnip> She wrote the note between eight and ten months before the police were ever called in to investigate anything, and it was stuck inside her 2016 diary. Almost two years before she was ever interviewed by police.

It's in the trial material, if you're interested in reading about the case.

 

[Sweeper2000]

<modsnip> She wrote the note between eight and ten months before the police were ever called in to investigate anything, and it was stuck inside her 2016 diary. Almost two years before she was ever interviewed by police.

It's in the trial material, if you're interested in reading about the case.

was that the same diary the police said they thought she wanted them to find? the one in her drawer placed quite conspicuously ? presumably been unmoved in years? even with plenty of time and awareness? similar to the bag of handovers ?

 

[Charlot123]

There are many possible causes of stillbirths . There is no evidence that the living, breathing, eating and sleeping newborns died of the same causes of prior still births. You can't just jump to that conclusion.

Did those stillbirths involve babies dying of massive internal hemmorages? Did they suddenly collapse and have rashes seemingly out of the blue?

This is not NICU and dialysis unit. This is maternity and NICU. They are connected. Increase in stillbirths. Increase in NICU mortality. Lucy is not a common factor. Curious, anyone?

At least look at possible commonalities?

This is what baffles me. Everyone in NICU and dr. Evans, too, everyone says "this is not about statistics".

But then they look at raw numbers and make no effort to analyze them? Just to improve the outcomes? For the hospital. Pediatricians, visiting both units, and not asking themselves what's going on?

 

[Charlot123]

<modsnip> She wrote the note between eight and ten months before the police were ever called in to investigate anything, and it was stuck inside her 2016 diary. Almost two years before she was ever interviewed by police.

It's in the trial material, if you're interested in reading about the case.

What page?

 

[Tortoise]

was that the same diary the police said they thought she wanted them to find? the one in her drawer placed quite conspicuously ? presumably been unmoved in years? even with plenty of time and awareness? similar to the bag of handovers ?

I think one officer might have speculated about that later, after the trial.

Personally I don't think she expected them to turn up at her house. I think she imagined she would be invited for an interview if they wanted to question her. That's why she got PTSD with them knocking on her door without warning, and was so shocked she still forgets she wasn't carted off in her nightie, and that she actually did have a paper shredder.

 

[Tortoise]

What page?

Transcript here of her police interview, read to the jury, regarding the note. From our WS-approved member's channel @CS2C . He purchased the transcripts.

This was also covered over different days of her trial, during her direct and cross examination. So it's on many different pages, if you're asking about the media thread.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I think one officer might have speculated about that later, after the trial.

Personally I don't think she expected them to turn up at her house. I think she imagined she would be invited for an interview if they wanted to question her. That's why she got PTSD with them knocking on her door without warning, and was so shocked she still forgets she wasn't carted off in her nightie, and that she actually did have a paper shredder.

yeh think it was that documentary they did on operation hummingbird.

I was always mixed about her and her attempts to conceal her actions tbh. we had this rather brazen series of events on the unit and we now know she was aware of the atmosphere and what those "not so nice" comments were about so she had a headsup about the potentials, then she was taken off the unit so thats a major headsup and then all that stuff was found at her house which means she aware and could have disposed of it but didnt. all of that along with her lacklustre efforts to conceal her actions in terms of paperwork and the like at the hospital kind of makes me think maybe she wasn't so keen to avoid consequence but you could also quite rightly believe she was just so overconfident in that she wouldn't get caught and have police at her door on a morning raid. I go with the former tbh and it makes me think her actions were of the impulsive kind which may also fit in with the borderline theory of personality.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I followed this case quite closely but not on this site. What’s the consensus here on the safety of the conviction? A lot has been written in the British press proclaiming Letby`s innocence and dismissing the notes she made (which came very close to a confession) as a result of stress and possible mental health issues. I just can’t imagine an innocent person accused of murder writing I did it, and I am evil, in any circumstances.

The overwhelming opinion on here is that she's guilty.

Very few, if any, of the people here who followed the trial on a daily (or almost daily) basis have any doubts as to her convictions.

I am totally sure that she's guilty. And I started out from the other side of the fence when I first heard of this case in 2020 when she was charged.

She had a ten month trial which contained a huge amount of evidence. The people who think she's innocent seem to obsess over individual pieces of evidence and completely miss the big picture which was pieced together over almost a year of court time.

She's guilty. No doubt.

 

[Marantz4250b]

<modsnip> She wrote the note between eight and ten months before the police were ever called in to investigate anything, and it was stuck inside her 2016 diary. Almost two years before she was ever interviewed by police.

It's in the trial material, if you're interested in reading about the case.

People keep bringing up those notes with the FALSE explanation as to when they were written and why.

As you say, she wrote these loooong before she was ever interviewed by police.

People need to stop spreading these LIES, quite frankly!

 

[Moll]

People keep bringing up those notes with the FALSE explanation as to when they were written and why.

As you say, she wrote these loooong before she was ever interviewed by police.

People need to stop spreading these LIES, quite frankly!

True. But the most recent example here was left uncut while an entirely reasonable correction was modsnipped to remove an also entirely reasonable criticism . So it would not be clear to anyone visiting this site just how exasperating these flights of fancy are. It's depressing that Tortoise and others have to expend their time reiterating information.

 

[Tortoise]

The overwhelming opinion on here is that she's guilty.

Very few, if any, of the people here who followed the trial on a daily (or almost daily) basis have any doubts as to her convictions.

I am totally sure that she's guilty. And I started out from the other side of the fence when I first heard of this case in 2020 when she was charged.

She had a ten month trial which contained a huge amount of evidence. The people who think she's innocent seem to obsess over individual pieces of evidence and completely miss the big picture which was pieced together over almost a year of court time.

She's guilty. No doubt.

Believe it or not I also started out expecting the case against her to be weak and unconvincing. Because they took so long before charging her and I thought with changes to the numbers they were adding and subtracting they weren't sure of their own case. Boy was I surprised by the steel rope of circumstantial evidence they weaved together, making it so clear what she was doing. Seeing her receiving a text saying 'it always happens on your shift' and then the next day baby F being drip-fed poisoned bags on the shift after she'd clocked off.

I have not a shred of doubt she is guilty. I'd have found her guilty of most of the not-guilty and hung counts too, based on the similarities, like parents being cotside all day and then the baby collapsing as soon as they'd gone, or as soon as the nurses had popped out, false entries in the nursing notes, the bafflement of the consultants, and strange things like the baby improving immediately after transfer - hallmarks of Letby, which the jury obviously didn't unanimously agree to utilise.

 

[marynnu]

Believe it or not I also started out expecting the case against her to be weak and unconvincing. Because they took so long before charging her and I thought with changes to the numbers they were adding and subtracting they weren't sure of their own case. Boy was I surprised by the steel rope of circumstantial evidence they weaved together, making it so clear what she was doing. Seeing her receiving a text saying 'it always happens on your shift' and then the next day baby F being drip-fed poisoned bags on the shift after she'd clocked off.

I have not a shred of doubt she is guilty. I'd have found her guilty of most of the not-guilty and hung counts too, based on the similarities, like parents being cotside all day and then the baby collapsing as soon as they'd gone, or as soon as the nurses had popped out, false entries in the nursing notes, the bafflement of the consultants, and strange things like the baby improving immediately after transfer - hallmarks of Letby, which the jury obviously didn't unanimously agree to utilise.

I must say I was surprised by the Baby Q verdict, given what we know as outsiders looking in.

 

[Tortoise]

I must say I was surprised by the Baby Q verdict, given what we know as outsiders looking in.

Me too. Especially since the baby wasn't receiving milk so he vomited a clear fluid, seconds after Letby dashed out of the room saying she had to attend to her other baby, who didn't need anything because she'd already done his cares and observations. She was unstoppable on her return from holiday.

 

[Sweeper2000]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Today I listened to the interview of Dr. Evans. He, while totally brushing aside the statistics, said a very interesting thing,

He said, "the neonatologists who were not at the trials and did not read clinical statements from the nurses and doctors."

So here is what drew my attention. I have read many times that only senior specialists accused LL. Neither the junior doctors nor - and it is important - nurses in NICU.

But Evans is alluding to the clinical statements of the nurses implying as I think that there was something in them that supported the prosecution.

Does anyone know what he is talking about? Is there some information specifically from the nurses that would point at Lucy's guilt but never disclosed? Or did I miss it during the trial?

It is important.

would be good to remember that the senior doctors will be more involved with finding a possible cause of death as Dr breary said he wondered about, he said even after lots of looking for a reason he couldn't find one which is probably due to him not looking for human action as a possible cause and afetr that was when they did start thinking about possible deliberate action.

im not sure about the role of junior doctors in that area of healthcare but i'm almost certain its not a nurses territory so they probably just wouldn't think about it. the nurses would just do their job and to the bets of their ability.

I can't think of anything Dr evans said that was to do with him saying the nurses were thinking along those lines he may be referring to something that wasn't conscious such as one fo the nurses saying just how unusual the events were like the nurse who text lucy "something was off that night" or something along those lines. what are u referring 2 ? might jog my memory.

 

[Tortoise]

would be good to remember that the senior doctors will be more involved with finding a possible cause of death as Dr breary said he wondered about, he said even after lots of looking for a reason he couldn't find one which is probably due to him not looking for human action as a possible cause and afetr that was when they did start thinking about possible deliberate action.

im not sure about the role of junior doctors in that area of healthcare but i'm almost certain its not a nurses territory so they probably just wouldn't think about it. the nurses would just do their job and to the bets of their ability.

I can't think of anything Dr evans said that was to do with him saying the nurses were thinking along those lines he may be referring to something that wasn't conscious such as one fo the nurses saying just how unusual the events were like the nurse who text lucy "something was off that night" or something along those lines. what are u referring 2 ? might jog my memory.

Despite previous healthcare serial-killers, it must be unfathomable to even think a nurse co-worker is harming newborns. I think people really underestimate how difficult it must have been for those consultants to turn their heads around to contemplating acts of deliberate harm.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

Despite previous healthcare serial-killers, it must be unfathomable to even think a nurse co-worker is harming newborns. I think people really underestimate how difficult it must have been for those consultants to turn their heads around to contemplating acts of deliberate harm.

For real. Doing the job depends on an immense amount of trust. And it's not like any other workplace where pretty much any death is an automatic red flag without regard to circumstance. The attacks were carried out in the guise of routine care. If Letby had not gone on these sprees of attacks, she might have gotten away with it for years.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Despite previous healthcare serial-killers, it must be unfathomable to even think a nurse co-worker is harming newborns. I think people really underestimate how difficult it must have been for those consultants to turn their heads around to contemplating acts of deliberate harm.

I wonder how many things dr brearey went through before eventually running out of options which also leads one down the path to deliberate harm and yep 100% thats a gate that no one wants to open. you would think "its not a, b or c so the only other alternative is that someone did something knowingly or not" and then you get all the other cases on top and the alarms start screeching. you would have so many different rather frightful things to think of as well such as "am i working with a baby killer?" "but shes so nice" "no one saw anything though" "but i was so nice to her". its so different from naturally arising issues as to involve completely different elements and routes of thought with many mnay of them being very uncomfortable to think of. it really would take bravery to float deliberate action as a cause as well either as an individual or collectively.