UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

[WaneLyrical]

There were never 4 staff looking after 20 babies. This is a pointless argument as even Letby herself acknowledged that staffing was not an issue.
A poorly staffed shift leads to things like drugs or feeds being given late, staff missing breaks, phone calls unanswered, no time to talk to parents etc. (none of which appears to have been the case at Chester). Not babies collapsing/dying

Well someone from the hospital told the police that 4 nurses were looking after up to 20 babies. They very clearly pointed out the unit was under severe pressure.

 

[WaneLyrical]

Going back to the trial. Staffing levels were shown not to be a contributing factor in almost every instance. The prosecution directly asked this question in every collapse. From previous posts COC was in a similar situation to most units up and down the country, and slightly above average in comparison to other units in the area. Staffing levels don't make babies have sudden unexpected cardiac arrests and lack of response to resuscitation.

I really don’t care about what was said in the trial. The trial also said that an acidic PH meant there was no milk in a tummy, which turned out to be fantasy. And it quoted swipe data for a door that didn’t even have a swipe pad. It was testified again and again by multiple witnesses that babies can and do deteriorate extremely suddenly. Lee said those collapses were not “unexpected” after reviewing the medical files.

 

[Marantz4250b]

I really don’t care about what was said in the trial. The trial also said that an acidic PH meant there was no milk in a tummy, which turned out to be fantasy. And it quoted swipe data for a door that didn’t even have a swipe pad. It was testified again and again by multiple witnesses that babies can and do deteriorate extremely suddenly. Lee said those collapses were not “unexpected” after reviewing the medical files.

And that one statement undermines every post you've ever made on this topic. Goodbye.

 

[JosieJo]

I’ve never said a lack of staff was a direct cause of various deaths and collapses.

I think it is a contributory factor to the numerous delays and mistakes with these babies. But clearly this was business as usual for the unit, as everyone points out again and again, delays and mistakes are acceptable in the NHS.

Common...but not acceptable

 

[WaneLyrical]

And that one statement undermines every post you've ever made on this topic. Goodbye.

What on earth are you talking about? I provided evidence that demonstrated the police were told staffing was an issue on the unit, straight from the unit’s mouth. I never suggested any babies died because someone was on their dinner break and nobody was there to save a child’s life. Whether or not it was determined at the original trial that a certain shift had enough nurses or not is absolutely irrelevant in my opinion. Because it’s about the bigger picture of the level of care coming from this hospital. If the experts who’ve since emerged have said that these deaths are not as mysterious as the jury were led to believe, then I’m not going to ignore that because the original trial is somehow sacrosanct. Like I said, there was a clear contradiction in the evidence given by Bohin in relation to Baby G. There was also a case of alleged air embolism which seemed to disappear when Evans and Bohin discovered Letby hadn’t even met the baby. Presumably it’s attempted murder if Letby was on shift, but it no longer looks like attempted murder now we know she wasn’t on shift. This is just scraping the surface of the utter nonsense heard in the original trial.

But hey, “you got me”

Some people appear to be so desperate for this to be a case of serial killings, that they ignore the fact that many respected people have put their reputations on the line to speak out against the medical evidence put before the jury.

 

[joltz]

I really don’t care about what was said in the trial. The trial also said that an acidic PH meant there was no milk in a tummy, which turned out to be fantasy. And it quoted swipe data for a door that didn’t even have a swipe pad. It was testified again and again by multiple witnesses that babies can and do deteriorate extremely suddenly. Lee said those collapses were not “unexpected” after reviewing the medical files.

Doesn't care about what was said at trial but random press conference by Letbys defence is somehow infallible.
Makes perfect sense...
Your agenda is very clear.
JMO

 

[joltz]

What on earth are you talking about? I provided evidence that demonstrated the police were told staffing was an issue on the unit, straight from the unit’s mouth. I never suggested any babies died because someone was on their dinner break and nobody was there to save a child’s life. Whether or not it was determined at the original trial that a certain shift had enough nurses or not is absolutely irrelevant in my opinion. Because it’s about the bigger picture of the level of care coming from this hospital. If the experts who’ve since emerged have said that these deaths are not as mysterious as the jury were led to believe, then I’m not going to ignore that because the original trial is somehow sacrosanct. Like I said, there was a clear contradiction in the evidence given by Bohin in relation to Baby G. There was also a case of alleged air embolism which seemed to disappear when Evans and Bohin discovered Letby hadn’t even met the baby. Presumably it’s attempted murder if Letby was on shift, but it no longer looks like attempted murder now we know she wasn’t on shift. This is just scraping the surface of the utter nonsense heard in the original trial.

But hey, “you got me”

Some people appear to be so desperate for this to be a case of serial killings, that they ignore the fact that many respected people have put their reputations on the line to speak out against the medical evidence put before the jury.

The trial presented a huge amount of evidence over 10 months, so picking out minute errors that actually amounted to nothing, doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Letbys new defence and Dr Lee, have presented a couple of press conferences and the like and the sheer amount of errors almost defies logic. These people are not being taken seriously. Letbys case will be going absolutely nowhere imo. Nothing they can create is ever going to change the fact that Letby murdered these babies. It's not difficult to dupe people that are looking for something to cling on to.

All JMO

 

[WaneLyrical]

The trial presented a huge amount of evidence over 10 months, so picking out minute errors that actually amounted to nothing, doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Letbys new defence and Dr Lee, have presented a couple of press conferences and the like and the sheer amount of errors almost defies logic. These people are not being taken seriously. Letbys case will be going absolutely nowhere imo. Nothing they can create is ever going to change the fact that Letby murdered these babies. It's not difficult to dupe people that are looking for something to cling on to.

All JMO

How are any of those things minute errors?

The entire evidence that Baby G’s tummy was empty (to establish that more came out than went in) was due to the acidic aspirates taken, which Bohin testified meant there could not have been milk in there since the milk would have buffered the stomach acid. Then in a later baby, milk was aspirated which was even more acidic. When Myers challenged this Bohin said she could answer and it was just left at that.

You consider that minute? Was Baby G’s stomach empty or not? Because otherwise, how exactly can there be any allegation of overfeeding?

I don’t know what agenda you think I’ve got. I’m not a true crime fan. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I followed this trial minute by minute but was never persuaded by the prosecution’s case. Anything that’s come out since then has only reinforced that for me. If it makes you feel better to think I’ve been “duped” then so be it. But I’ve got legitimate questions that nobody is answering.

Why is air on an xray an embolism if Letby is on duty, but not an embolism when she’s not?

 

[marynnu]

Well someone from the hospital told the police that 4 nurses were looking after up to 20 babies. They very clearly pointed out the unit was under severe pressure.

Do you have a link for that?

 

[JosieJo]

How are any of those things minute errors?

The entire evidence that Baby G’s tummy was empty (to establish that more came out than went in) was due to the acidic aspirates taken, which Bohin testified meant there could not have been milk in there since the milk would have buffered the stomach acid. Then in a later baby, milk was aspirated which was even more acidic. When Myers challenged this Bohin said she could answer and it was just left at that.

You consider that minute? Was Baby G’s stomach empty or not? Because otherwise, how exactly can there be any allegation of overfeeding?

I don’t know what agenda you think I’ve got. I’m not a true crime fan. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. I followed this trial minute by minute but was never persuaded by the prosecution’s case. Anything that’s come out since then has only reinforced that for me. If it makes you feel better to think I’ve been “duped” then so be it. But I’ve got legitimate questions that nobody is answering.

Why is air on an xray an embolism if Letby is on duty, but not an embolism when she’s not?

The amount of fluid that came out was far more than any left over previous feed...the baby would never had had the amount that came out ...with such force

 

[WaneLyrical]

The amount of fluid that came out was far more than any left over previous feed...the baby would never had had the amount that came out ...with such force

That’s not abnormal though, much of what’s in a stomach at any given time has been self-produced. Acid, water, mucous, etc.

Bohin’s testimony on this, at the time and in retrospect, appears complete nonsense. “Milk buffering acid”. But this was the level of medical evidence given to the jury.

 

[WaneLyrical]

Do you have a link for that?

The link was in the comment you replied to

 

[Moll]

The link was in the comment you replied to

No, there was no link in the comment marynnu replied to, as far as I can see.

ETA Your comment before the last one marynnu replied to (post #300) had a link, and I guess you mean that. The opening paragraph of that report says:
'Cheshire Constabulary
Operation Hummingbird —Summary / Actions
Held at 15:30 on Friday 5th May 2017
ACPO Meeting Room, Headquarters
1. Within the neonatal unit you would expect to see on shift at any one time, 3 trained nursing staff assisted by 1 nursery nurse. They would look after approximately 5-10 babies. During the index period, the neonatal unit had been busier, staff had increased workloads and staff could have been looking after anything up to 20 babies within the same staffing compliment. '

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102298_3,4.pdf

Is that it?

 

[Marantz4250b]

The trial presented a huge amount of evidence over 10 months, so picking out minute errors that actually amounted to nothing, doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

Letbys new defence and Dr Lee, have presented a couple of press conferences and the like and the sheer amount of errors almost defies logic. These people are not being taken seriously. Letbys case will be going absolutely nowhere imo. Nothing they can create is ever going to change the fact that Letby murdered these babies. It's not difficult to dupe people that are looking for something to cling on to.

All JMO

The press conferences say a great deal, imo. Press conferences in relation to legal cases almost never happen other than ones after a trial has concluded. I can't think of any cases where either side has held a presser before the fact. It's completely alien to the British judicial system and, imo, completely incompatible with British legal values. And, yes I'm aware that there was one yesterday in relation to the Liverpool incident but that was essentially an investigation update and the police and CPS won't be saying anything more - and, for what it's worth, I don't think the words used by the police are entirely compatible with the "don't publish stuff that may endanger the case" as those themselves may do so. Not just my opinion, btw, also held by a University law lecturer mate I was speaking with last night.

Anyway, back to the point; the press conferences were nothing more than publicity stunts and ego boosters because they have no practical value in the sense of fighting her case. The CCRC nor any appellate court is going to be swayed by them one little bit. We don't do justice by public opinion in this country so what was the point of them?

And, yes, as you say, Dr Lee simply has no clue what he's talking about as he put forward a theory at the conference that had already been put to bed at trial with even the defence accepting that it didn't happen.

 

[katydid23]

That’s not abnormal though, much of what’s in a stomach at any given time has been self-produced. Acid, water, mucous, etc.

Bohin’s testimony on this, at the time and in retrospect, appears complete nonsense. “Milk buffering acid”. But this was the level of medical evidence given to the jury.

Are you a doctor?

 

[WaneLyrical]

No, there was no link in the comment marynnu replied to, as far as I can see.

ETA Your comment before the last one marynnu replied to (post #300) had a link, and I guess you mean that. The opening paragraph of that report says:
'Cheshire Constabulary
Operation Hummingbird —Summary / Actions
Held at 15:30 on Friday 5th May 2017
ACPO Meeting Room, Headquarters
1. Within the neonatal unit you would expect to see on shift at any one time, 3 trained nursing staff assisted by 1 nursery nurse. They would look after approximately 5-10 babies. During the index period, the neonatal unit had been busier, staff had increased workloads and staff could have been looking after anything up to 20 babies within the same staffing compliment. '

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102298_3,4.pdf

Is that it?

Yes that’s the one

 

[WaneLyrical]

Are you a doctor?

I’m not, no

 

[Tortoise]

No, there was no link in the comment marynnu replied to, as far as I can see.

ETA Your comment before the last one marynnu replied to (post #300) had a link, and I guess you mean that. The opening paragraph of that report says:
'Cheshire Constabulary
Operation Hummingbird —Summary / Actions
Held at 15:30 on Friday 5th May 2017
ACPO Meeting Room, Headquarters
1. Within the neonatal unit you would expect to see on shift at any one time, 3 trained nursing staff assisted by 1 nursery nurse. They would look after approximately 5-10 babies. During the index period, the neonatal unit had been busier, staff had increased workloads and staff could have been looking after anything up to 20 babies within the same staffing compliment. '

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102298_3,4.pdf

Is that it?

It was a comment made to the police by Ian Harvey - at a time when he was trying to convince them there was no evidence to justify an investigation, before they met with the consultants.

This is a link showing the preceding page too, with his initials.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102298_02-03.pdf

 

[Moll]

It was a comment made to the police by Ian Harvey - at a time when he was trying to convince them there was no evidence to justify an investigation, before they met with the consultants.

This is a link showing the preceding page too, with his initials.

https://thirlwall.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploads/thirlwall-evidence/INQ0102298_02-03.pdf

Thanks, Tortoise, essential context.
So that bit cited by WaneLyrical was not as I said the opening paragraph 'of the report' but of page 3.

 

[joltz]

That’s not abnormal though, much of what’s in a stomach at any given time has been self-produced. Acid, water, mucous, etc.

Bohin’s testimony on this, at the time and in retrospect, appears complete nonsense. “Milk buffering acid”. But this was the level of medical evidence given to the jury.

It was absolutely abnormal. The baby projectile vomited. Please don't try to tell people that followed the full trial, that what happened to this baby was not abnormal. Go and have a look back through the witness testimony. There was nothing normal whatsoever about the vomit.