UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, murder of babies, 7 Guilty of murder verdicts; 8 Guilty of attempted murder; 2 Not Guilty of attempted; 5 hung re attempted #38

  • #521
From what I understand, he was not invited by the crown. Dr. Evans self-invited. Using his longstanding reputation in the field.

However, he is a 75-year-old man who worked in pediatrics (with children) all his life. Pediatricians are blunt with parents, true but they have to be able to play with kids, so, not so black-and-white.

Dr. Evans’s role was to examine the case and give his expert opinion. How he examined it is questionable per se but I’d leave it to professionals in neonatology (which he is not) and pediatrics (which he is) to opine on this case. What is very concerning is that Evans’s current statements indicate intense projection on Lucy Letby. This makes me wonder if he could even be an impartial trial consultant, during the trial.

Re "intense projection"

The LL persona,
with angelic smile and blonde good looks was vital how the PUBLIC viewed her at the beginning.
Phew!
She was even chosen as a model in Hospital's Promoting Poster.

Why wasn't another, senior & more experienced nurse chosen?

Nope, it was to be LL,
young & pretty.

So,
let's not criticize only this particular doctor ;)

JMO
 
  • #522
  • #523
I don’t know where to start.

“Turned on by a nurse’s uniform”sounds problematic and very unprofessional. This is concerning as Dewi Evan’s was hired as a trial consultant in the crown case against a nurse.

“I would suggest you need to get out more, find yourself an available pretty young blonde female, with/without nursing credentials” is misogynistic. Women are not objects. They are not inanimate. You don’t “find” pretty blondes, you work at a good partnership.

As a male pediatrician, Evans is supposed to be the teaching and role model for other male doctors in training. Instead, he is a shame.

Most of all, it is scary that he is still so angry against Lucy Letby, the woman whom his, and his only testimony, sent to jail. He objectivizes her. His words might be even putting her at risk of intramural harassment now.

P.S. JMO. Dewi Evans’s job as the trial consultant ended with Letby’s conviction. Whether he did a good job or a bad one is a legit question, to be asked by other professionals, but his job on this case is over. Do we ever have cases showing so much obvious involvement of the trial consultant in the accused post-trial? Mind you, his words describe Lucy Letby very unprofessionally, in an objectified and sexualized manner. My question is, was Doctor Dewi Evans in the form and shape, mentally, to adequately perform his consultant’s job during the trial, if a year + later, he, a pediatrician, a court-appointed counselor, is behaving like an influencer?

These people who message Evans constantly, know exactly what they are doing. They are basically attempting to bait him. He has shown in the past that he will give his opinion, willingly. So it seems the tactic now is to bait the man as much as possible until he says something "newsworthy" and then run straight to the press and get another Letby article on the go.

There is literally no news about Letby recently and her fans/PR agency must be desperate to have some more news stories about her.

I don't think it's a coincidence that there's been 3-4 seperate stories about her in the last day or so.

I personally think they are getting absolutely desperate and it shows

JMO
 
  • #524
  • #525
I think the fact all the major outlets are now stating their positions, and the reality that there is now a whole lot of reasonable doubt surrounding this case, is very interesting and a sign of things to come. I have absolutely no doubt this will be referred to the court of appeal, as it should.
 
  • #526
These people who message Evans constantly, know exactly what they are doing. They are basically attempting to bait him. He has shown in the past that he will give his opinion, willingly. So it seems the tactic now is to bait the man as much as possible until he says something "newsworthy" and then run straight to the press and get another Letby article on the go.

There is literally no news about Letby recently and her fans/PR agency must be desperate to have some more news stories about her.

I don't think it's a coincidence that there's been 3-4 seperate stories about her in the last day or so.

I personally think they are getting absolutely desperate and it shows

JMO

First, Dr. Evans is not the victim of public’s opinion in Lucy Letby’s case. It was Lucy who was castigated in public before the trial even started. Now the public is questioning the safety of her conviction. Dr. Evans was retained by court, paid for his work, his opinion helped secure the conviction, he became known. Any celebrity gets messages, and most learn how to deal with them.

Evans’ problem is not people messaging him, if it indeed happens. His problem is the fact that world-known international neonatologists questioned his expert opinion at trial. Why instead of dedicating his time to answering his peers like Drs. Lee or Modi, or many others, as it seems now, he resorts to advices on hot nurses, given to random public, via mass media, is unclear.

It only raises one question, was Dr. Dewi Evans the right expert chosen for this trial?
 
  • #527
Re "intense projection"

The LL persona,
with angelic smile and blonde good looks was vital how the PUBLIC viewed her at the beginning.
Phew!
She was even chosen as a model in Hospital's Promoting Poster.

Why wasn't another, senior & more experienced nurse chosen?

Nope, it was to be LL,
young & pretty.

So,
let's not criticize only this particular doctor ;)

JMO

Who and why chose her for the poster, should be the question to the staff and the photographer. I simply don’t know.

But if you are right, then it is exactly the attitude we as the society want to eradicate. We want young women to feel empowered. So if there was a better, more deserving nurse to represent the unit, and Lucy was chosen for her looks, the question should be, who made this choice and why? ;)
 
  • #528
Were there 'many protestations of innocence'? I don't recall that.
yes but we did not actually see any. which is strange to me, it could have added context in my thoughts and may have lessened the weirdness of her confession note.

"The court heard the passages were written on post-it notes, and included phrases such as "what allegations have been made and by who? Do they have written evidence to support their comments?".

The notes also contained "many protestations of innocence," prosecutor Nick Johnson KC told the jury."

 
  • #529
I think the fact all the major outlets are now stating their positions, and the reality that there is now a whole lot of reasonable doubt surrounding this case, is very interesting and a sign of things to come. I have absolutely no doubt this will be referred to the court of appeal, as it should.


Getting to court of appeal won't be a problem imo ....Getting it past them will be where it all falls flat
 
  • #530
First, Dr. Evans is not the victim of public’s opinion in Lucy Letby’s case. It was Lucy who was castigated in public before the trial even started. Now the public is questioning the safety of her conviction. Dr. Evans was retained by court, paid for his work, his opinion helped secure the conviction, he became known. Any celebrity gets messages, and most learn how to deal with them.

Evans’ problem is not people messaging him, if it indeed happens. His problem is the fact that world-known international neonatologists questioned his expert opinion at trial. Why instead of dedicating his time to answering his peers like Drs. Lee or Modi, or many others, as it seems now, he resorts to advices on hot nurses, given to random public, via mass media, is unclear.

It only raises one question, was Dr. Dewi Evans the right expert chosen for this trial?

Dr Evans didn't single handedly convict Letby. Multiple experts in their specialist fields gave hypotheses which agreed with Dr Evans. These people are impartial and that was their opinion. But Lucy Letbys fans have decided to paint Evans as some sort of pantomime villain. They have done the same to Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary, to an extent. Dr Evans is being villified for giving his opinion and assessment on the Letby's defences latest stunts. And you can guarantee, if he said nothing, these exact same people would be calling him out for not defending his evidence.

And Dr Evans, has given his opinion on the "world-known international neonatologists" and it was absolutely scathing. I think the thing that really gets their backs up, is that Dr Evans is quite partial to an offensive put-down.

He said all of their conclusions are wrong and they didn't have a pathologist, a haematologist, an endocrinologist, an obstetrician. I think that's a fair point, they could have 1000 neonatologists and it wouldn't make their arguement any stronger.

The fact remains, the defence have not secured experts of the same disciplines of the original expert panel to counter their narrative. They have surely been unable to do so, which is absolutely telling.

Instead we have the likes of Roger Norwich, a man who claimed a Dr caused the death of one of the babies, then never mentioned it again. A man who is actually a GEOLOGIST. His speciality is ROCKS. His registration to the GMC was 5th February 2025.


The fact that so much focus is put onto Dr Evans, really shows how weak their arguement is. They could only muster around 40 people in a room for their latest stunt in Hereford. This is a very vocal but tiny minority of people. Letbys defence have the PR company working with them to provide articles for news agencies to publish but really her support is absolutely tiny. The media is obviously going to lap it up, because serial killers always make headlines.


And when it comes to expert witnesses, their role is to the court, to be impartial. Dr Evans viewed the evidence and wrote a series of reports which were whittled down and worked on further. He also changed his opinion throughout the trial, when new evidence emerged. He has done his job, correctly and he withstood all the scrutiny of the defence.

I think it would be better to draw attention to those who have made their positions clear before legal proceedings began. Shoo Lee, Neena Modi, Svilena Dimitrova.
These people could never be independent expert witnesses to the court as they have all showed a ridiculous level of bias or conflict of interest.

JMO
 
  • #531
I think the fact all the major outlets are now stating their positions, and the reality that there is now a whole lot of reasonable doubt surrounding this case, is very interesting and a sign of things to come. I have absolutely no doubt this will be referred to the court of appeal, as it should.

Letbys defence are working with a PR group, so that's where the articles are coming from. Also, no one is putting their names to them. The media loves serial killers, the likes of Brady, Rose West, Shipman, can still make front page headlines. Letby is a dream come true for the news agencies.

I personally have no doubt whatsoever that Letbys case will not be referred, simply because there is actually no new evidence. None.

The CCRC isn't going to refer Letbys case because Peter Hitchens keeps saying its a miscarriage, because a geologist said a Dr killed a baby or because Nadine Dorries demands it.

Despite what the media will have you believe, the case against Letby has only become stronger since the conviction.

JMO
 
  • #532
Dr Evans didn't single handedly convict Letby. Multiple experts in their specialist fields gave hypotheses which agreed with Dr Evans. These people are impartial and that was their opinion. But Lucy Letbys fans have decided to paint Evans as some sort of pantomime villain. They have done the same to Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary, to an extent. Dr Evans is being villified for giving his opinion and assessment on the Letby's defences latest stunts. And you can guarantee, if he said nothing, these exact same people would be calling him out for not defending his evidence.

And Dr Evans, has given his opinion on the "world-known international neonatologists" and it was absolutely scathing. I think the thing that really gets their backs up, is that Dr Evans is quite partial to an offensive put-down.

He said all of their conclusions are wrong and they didn't have a pathologist, a haematologist, an endocrinologist, an obstetrician. I think that's a fair point, they could have 1000 neonatologists and it wouldn't make their arguement any stronger.

The fact remains, the defence have not secured experts of the same disciplines of the original expert panel to counter their narrative. They have surely been unable to do so, which is absolutely telling.

Instead we have the likes of Roger Norwich, a man who claimed a Dr caused the death of one of the babies, then never mentioned it again. A man who is actually a GEOLOGIST. His speciality is ROCKS. His registration to the GMC was 5th February 2025.


The fact that so much focus is put onto Dr Evans, really shows how weak their arguement is. They could only muster around 40 people in a room for their latest stunt in Hereford. This is a very vocal but tiny minority of people. Letbys defence have the PR company working with them to provide articles for news agencies to publish but really her support is absolutely tiny. The media is obviously going to lap it up, because serial killers always make headlines.


And when it comes to expert witnesses, their role is to the court, to be impartial. Dr Evans viewed the evidence and wrote a series of reports which were whittled down and worked on further. He also changed his opinion throughout the trial, when new evidence emerged. He has done his job, correctly and he withstood all the scrutiny of the defence.

I think it would be better to draw attention to those who have made their positions clear before legal proceedings began. Shoo Lee, Neena Modi, Svilena Dimitrova.
These people could never be independent expert witnesses to the court as they have all showed a ridiculous level of bias or conflict of interest.

JMO

At the very beginning
there was also a female doctor expert who worked independently on cases presented by Police
and came to the same conclusions as Dr E.

I cannot remember her name for the life of me 🤔

Or am I being mistaken?
So much time has passed.

All in all,
A lot of people worked tirelessly on this horrendous case.

Not to mention Jury.

JMO
 
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  • #533
At the very beginning
there was also a female doctor expert who worked independently on cases presented by Police
and came to the same conclusions as Dr E.

I cannot remember her name for the life of me 🤔

Or am I being mistaken?
So much time has passed.

JMO

There was another male expert, whose assesment agreed with Dr Evans but he died before the trial began.
 
  • #534


Nearly two years after her initial conviction, the drumbeat of doubt grows ever louder and more persistent. New evidence has emerged on several fronts which, had it been available to the court, may conceivably have swayed the jury in another direction."
This is simply untrue. No "new" evidence has emerged at all. Its just the same stuff that was looked at in detail in the original trials and dismissed.

The tone seems to be that the more and more press coverage there is the stronger her case for innocence is which is complete nonsense. Because more people bang on about it doesn't make it true.
 
  • #535
To those claiming there is no new evidence, what is your opinion of the control sample done by the lab in the months between the two relevant babies? It wasn’t disclosed at trial, instead the jury were told the lab was performing very well. The lab’s result on that quality control sample recorded less than 15% of the c-peptide present, and 800% of the insulin.

But yet the jury was told such results mean only one thing: exogenous insulin. Did Lucy Letby poison the quality control sample too?

How is this NOT new evidence? It was not disclosed to the defence.
 
  • #536
Dr Evans didn't single handedly convict Letby. Multiple experts in their specialist fields gave hypotheses which agreed with Dr Evans. These people are impartial and that was their opinion. But Lucy Letbys fans have decided to paint Evans as some sort of pantomime villain. They have done the same to Dr Jayaram and Dr Breary, to an extent. Dr Evans is being villified for giving his opinion and assessment on the Letby's defences latest stunts. And you can guarantee, if he said nothing, these exact same people would be calling him out for not defending his evidence.

And Dr Evans, has given his opinion on the "world-known international neonatologists" and it was absolutely scathing. I think the thing that really gets their backs up, is that Dr Evans is quite partial to an offensive put-down.

He said all of their conclusions are wrong and they didn't have a pathologist, a haematologist, an endocrinologist, an obstetrician. I think that's a fair point, they could have 1000 neonatologists and it wouldn't make their arguement any stronger.

The fact remains, the defence have not secured experts of the same disciplines of the original expert panel to counter their narrative. They have surely been unable to do so, which is absolutely telling.

Instead we have the likes of Roger Norwich, a man who claimed a Dr caused the death of one of the babies, then never mentioned it again. A man who is actually a GEOLOGIST. His speciality is ROCKS. His registration to the GMC was 5th February 2025.


The fact that so much focus is put onto Dr Evans, really shows how weak their arguement is. They could only muster around 40 people in a room for their latest stunt in Hereford. This is a very vocal but tiny minority of people. Letbys defence have the PR company working with them to provide articles for news agencies to publish but really her support is absolutely tiny. The media is obviously going to lap it up, because serial killers always make headlines.


And when it comes to expert witnesses, their role is to the court, to be impartial. Dr Evans viewed the evidence and wrote a series of reports which were whittled down and worked on further. He also changed his opinion throughout the trial, when new evidence emerged. He has done his job, correctly and he withstood all the scrutiny of the defence.

I think it would be better to draw attention to those who have made their positions clear before legal proceedings began. Shoo Lee, Neena Modi, Svilena Dimitrova.
These people could never be independent expert witnesses to the court as they have all showed a ridiculous level of bias or conflict of interest.

JMO
I can agree with you on one accord. Showmen attract attention. They probably wanted it to be positive, they wanted fame, it was such a high-profile case… but see how it has backfired. Well, if a doctor offers himself as a trial expert in a murder case, he should foresee the risks.

So Dr. Breary who stays in the shade accumulates less criticism. TBH, he interests me the most, but his shield is impenetrable.

Most everything in this case is is post factum, making it incredibly weak. Concerns were raised way later; there were few postmortems. So any kind of opinion, be it Dr. Evans or Dr. Lee, is provided way after the infants’ demises. They all may be missing something. But one has to use critical judgment, and to me, dr. Lee’s explanations seem more logical.

About the geologist. Internet is full of experts in any field. There is a much better case on this forum for a geologist, IMHO, but theoretically, even he has the right to put his two cents about COCH, as a potential patient. On TikTok, YouTube, you name it. Court-appointed experts are not laymen. They wrote an opinion, signed it and listed their credentials. They got paid for their time. Were they a good match for the case? Did the court use everyone’s expertise? One wonders why, given that the initial appeal to the public specifically said, “one has to understand statistics” (you see, I remember well what was written before!), no statistician provided his opinion during the trial?

Dr. Evans’ post-trial behavior is puzzling. Dr. Shoo Lee gave his opinion - and left. So did all the experts. The first barrister is not commenting on the case. Nor is the judge. I don’t think it is commonplace post-verdict for those involved to go back to it, unless there is an appeal? I know Jayaram tried to make a “hero” out of himself after the trial, but he is quiet now. (And, he was a mere witness there).

Only Evans keeps on commenting. One wonders whether his interviews are financially motivated, or if he so impulsive that he can be easily drawn into it?

Evans is no fool. Surely he understands that his shocking statements serve to shield the NHS and the NICU from very serious questions? Such as: Pseudomonas aeruginosa and other nosocomial infections on the unit, sewage overflow, poor triaging, and worst of all, staff burnout?

No matter whose side you take, the case should be followed by discussing the stress of NICU work and ways to improve it. Instead, we hear “hot young nurses”, and watch Dr. Evans digging himself a deeper hole. He doesn’t need it. The decision to take this case was his, but for the COCH and everything leading to this trial, he is not responsible at all.

JMO - he should stop protecting others. Dr. Jayaram has to be accountable for own memory lapses, Dr. Breary for lack of trivial education in statistics, CEOs, for poor organization of their work. As long as Dewi keeps falling on a grenade, he just tarnishes own reputation and we can’t get to the bottom of this case.
 
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  • #537
To those claiming there is no new evidence, what is your opinion of the control sample done by the lab in the months between the two relevant babies? It wasn’t disclosed at trial, instead the jury were told the lab was performing very well. The lab’s result on that quality control sample recorded less than 15% of the c-peptide present, and 800% of the insulin.

But yet the jury was told such results mean only one thing: exogenous insulin. Did Lucy Letby poison the quality control sample too?

How is this NOT new evidence? It was not disclosed to the defence.

I'm not 100% but surely the new evidence would have to be big enough to sway a result.
The babies continuing low blood sugars despite treatment..fits exactly with the blood results presented
 
  • #538
At the very beginning
there was also a female doctor expert who worked independently on cases presented by Police
and came to the same conclusions as Dr E.

I cannot remember her name for the life of me 🤔

Or am I being mistaken?
So much time has passed.

All in all,
A lot of people worked tirelessly on this horrendous case.

Not to mention Jury.

JMO
it was Sandie Bohin.
 
  • #539
I'm not 100% but surely the new evidence would have to be big enough to sway a result.
The babies continuing low blood sugars despite treatment..fits exactly with the blood results presented
Not if what Shoo Lee is saying is correct. He’s saying the persistent hypoglycaemia is understandable in the context of the treatment given, and that once the correct treatment was given to both babies the hypoglycaemia resolved as it should. While I understand people might think he’s biased, for someone of his expertise speaking on something as common as hypoglycaemia in preterm infants, I would think many many experts would have come forward if what he was saying was utter nonsense.

In which case, if we have a situation where we know these wildly inaccurate results can be reported by the lab, and the persistent hypoglycaemia itself wasn’t suspicious, then where does it leave things, because the evidence of a poisoner was arguably the most robust of all the evidence heard by the jury. And given the judge’s directions were such that any conclusions of deliberate harm could be used to add weight to the other charges, then it’s a house of cards waiting to fall.
 
  • #540
Not if what Shoo Lee is saying is correct. He’s saying the persistent hypoglycaemia is understandable in the context of the treatment given, and that once the correct treatment was given to both babies the hypoglycaemia resolved as it should. While I understand people might think he’s biased, for someone of his expertise speaking on something as common as hypoglycaemia in preterm infants, I would think many many experts would have come forward if what he was saying was utter nonsense.

In which case, if we have a situation where we know these wildly inaccurate results can be reported by the lab, and the persistent hypoglycaemia itself wasn’t suspicious, then where does it leave things, because the evidence of a poisoner was arguably the most robust of all the evidence heard by the jury. And given the judge’s directions were such that any conclusions of deliberate harm could be used to add weight to the other charges, then it’s a house of cards waiting to fall.

And yet a very eminent Paediatric endocrinologist stated in court there was no other explanation?????
 

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