• #3,041
Shoo Lee has explained the baby’s results. He’s significantly more qualified than you or me to comment.

And the video you’re commenting on literally describes blood being withdrawn from the liver by Brearey.

Yes they are very qualified experienced doctors which makes the fact that what they are saying doesn't make sense so baffling.

Baby F was hypoglycemia despite being given double the amount of dextrose he needed. The C peptide which is always lower then the insulin was undetectable because it was so low so therefore the insulin should have been very low. If the baby had no insulin in his blood what was he doing with all the extra sugar he had been given it has to go somewhere!

The pathologist explained using photographs to the jury, that there was no bleeding from the puncture mark to the liver because it occured after he died, when the liver was removed at the post mortem.
 
  • #3,042
I've still got no answer about what exactly the "fitness to practice investigation" into Peter Hindmarsh involved. Various newspapers and Letbyists made a big fuss about it the other day...
 
  • #3,043
If you’d bothered to listen to him, maybe you’d understand.

Indeed, I thought this bit of the Sun’s interview with him was highly interesting, as he explained how these AEs had come to have occurred, and then how they’d learnt from this to prevent future AEs from happening. But why bother listening to what he actually said? If you’ve listened to every episode of The Trial of Lucy Letby podcast, you’ve cracked it! All these Johnny Come Latelys just wouldn’t understand!
 
  • #3,044
I've still got no answer about what exactly the "fitness to practice investigation" into Peter Hindmarsh involved. Various newspapers and Letbyists made a big fuss about it the other day...
“A doctor who gave crucial expert evidence about insulin poisoning for the prosecution of the nurse Lucy Letby was under investigation by the medical regulator at the time due to serious concerns about his fitness to practise.

The General Medical Council (GMC) opened an investigation into concerns about Prof Peter Hindmarsh, including that he had harmed patients, on the first day he gave evidence at Letby’s trial in late 2022.


The GMC investigation was still continuing when Hindmarsh gave evidence for a second time at the Letby trial three months later. Great Ormond Street hospital reported Hindmarsh to the GMC after a formal investigation led by his main employer, “

 
  • #3,045
I'd justsay that the nurse staffing is the same day & night.

So I was right, a hospital unit is nothing like a dark park. Thanks.
 
  • #3,046
So I was right, a hospital unit is nothing like a dark park. Thanks.
Nursery 1 was surrounded by windows and would have had no warnings of any one suddenly walking past, compared to the other less well staffed and more secluded rooms on the ward. This is the walkthrough video made by the police for the trial, so one thing we do know is the jury were given a visual of the unit.

 
  • #3,047
Yes, and in your view what is suspicious about any of this?

<snip>
There is other good evidence that Letby knew that insulin was in the feed bag, despite it never being their practice to administer insulin (when prescribed) via the feed bag. She asked police if his feed bags had been kept, before they told her what evidence they were working with.

<snip>

This isn’t right, is it, at least not according to this Chester Standard article (3:00pm entry):



At the risk of stating the obvious, “at the end of this part of the interview” suggests, surely, that Letby asked about the bags at the end of this discussion about the bags, not before, as you claimed. So I’m not sure this is the gotcha you think it is. As is often the case with circumstantial evidence, I find!
You yourself framed it as a "gotcha".

As the transcript shows, police had not put to her that insulin was in the TPN bag before she asked them if the TPN bags had been kept. She even (some might think supernaturally), knew it involved multiple bags, not just the one bag she'd hooked up to the baby!

LL: “Can I ask a question about this in terms of the bags and everything? I’m assuming they were – they haven’t been kept or checked, you know, post-event.”

As they did with all the babies, they were asking her about her involvement in the nursing care and the nursing records of baby F, who wasn't her designated baby on that shift.

It's yet another example of leakage of her guilty knowledge, because insulin isn't ever added to TPN.

Another example of this would be when the post mortems of triplets O and P were pending, she started panicking that doctors were no longer thinking natural causes, and as it would transpire on her last day ever to work in the NNU, she put in a Datix about an open port of a non-indictment baby, and texted this to her friend -

"I told her about it that night.
"Yes because thought it's a massive infection risk and risk of air embolism, don't know how long it had been like that."

A Datix form for the clinical incident is shown to the court - June 30, 2016, 3pm, with the port on one of the lumens noted to not have a bung on the end and was therefore 'open'. Registrar informed. Letby is the reporter of the incident.

Bullseye! Super nurse Lucy Letby was one step ahead of the experts.
 
  • #3,048
“A doctor who gave crucial expert evidence about insulin poisoning for the prosecution of the nurse Lucy Letby was under investigation by the medical regulator at the time due to serious concerns about his fitness to practise.

The General Medical Council (GMC) opened an investigation into concerns about Prof Peter Hindmarsh, including that he had harmed patients, on the first day he gave evidence at Letby’s trial in late 2022.


The GMC investigation was still continuing when Hindmarsh gave evidence for a second time at the Letby trial three months later. Great Ormond Street hospital reported Hindmarsh to the GMC after a formal investigation led by his main employer, “

At the very least, the jury should have been informed he was only allowed perform duties under supervision as was recommended. Not only does it call to question his character and expertise, it all makes his motives questionable. This was lying by omission.

If there case is so strong, why not be transparent? Why hide any critical information or settle for an expert whose been removed from duty and accused of harming patients. The irony is insane.
 
  • #3,049
At the very least, the jury should have been informed he was only allowed perform duties under supervision as was recommended. Not only does it call to question his character and expertise, it all makes his motives questionable. This was lying by omission.

If there case is so strong, why not be transparent? Why hide any critical information or settle for an expert whose been removed from duty and accused of harming patients. The irony is insane.
Ben Myers KC knew about it, but he didn't raise it at her appeal. He must have known the full context and that it wasn't relevant to his expertise in the field of paediatric endocrinology, IMO
 
  • #3,050
What’s she wrong about?

She states the prosecution said she must have injected insulin into the stock bags of fluid and wanted to know what happened to all the other bags with insulin in ....completely incorrect

Firstly it wasn't fluid it was TPN...if a clinicians refer to bags of fluid it's usually saline or dextrose..tpn is totally different.

Their case was she "May" have contaminated "one" bag of TPN which is stored in a fridge and very easy to see which will be used next as it will be on top.

Or

The insulin molecules which are sticky could have lingered in the giving sets or lines.

Why on earth is she stating about lots of bags of fluid contaminated with insulin

Because of people like her numerous members of the public are believing this nonsense
 
  • #3,051
Ben Myers KC knew about it, but he didn't raise it at her appeal. He must have known the full context and that it wasn't relevant to his expertise in the field of paediatric endocrinology, IMO

Common sense ...more useless noise from the PR campaign
 
  • #3,052
You yourself framed it as a "gotcha".

As the transcript shows, police had not put to her that insulin was in the TPN bag before she asked them if the TPN bags had been kept. She even (some might think supernaturally), knew it involved multiple bags, not just the one bag she'd hooked up to the baby!

LL: “Can I ask a question about this in terms of the bags and everything? I’m assuming they were – they haven’t been kept or checked, you know, post-event.”

As they did with all the babies, they were asking her about her involvement in the nursing care and the nursing records of baby F, who wasn't her designated baby on that shift.

It's yet another example of leakage of her guilty knowledge, because insulin isn't ever added to TPN.

Another example of this would be when the post mortems of triplets O and P were pending, she started panicking that doctors were no longer thinking natural causes, and as it would transpire on her last day ever to work in the NNU, she put in a Datix about an open port of a non-indictment baby, and texted this to her friend -



Bullseye! Super nurse Lucy Letby was one step ahead of the experts.

But you’re basing this on the trial transcripts, correct? Surely you’d need the police interview transcripts to work out who said what and when, exactly?

In the article I quoted, Johnson appears to set out how this conversation went down quite clearly:

She was asked about the TPN bags chart. She said the TPN was kept in a locked fridge and the insulin was kept in that same fridge.

She confirmed her signature on the TPN form.

She had no recollection of having had involvement with administering the TPN bag contents to Child F, but confirmed giving Child F glucose injections and taken observations.

He then concludes:

“Interestingly, at the end of this part of the interview she asked whether the police had access to the TPN bag that she had connected.”

So, to sum up:

She was asked about the TPN bags chart.
She confirmed her signature on the TPN form.
She couldn’t recall administering the TPN bag.
She then asked if the TPN bag had been kept.

The steps here appear perfectly logical. What in this sequence of events, in your view, suggests she was - as you put it - ‘one step ahead’?
 
  • #3,053
You're 'surmising' a lot there that bears little to no resemblance to how a massive case of multiple murder with its own years-long task force is actually investigated, just based on what has been stated at trial and in interviews with LE who were part of the investigation of Letby and CoCH.

MOO

Did the Chester police, during the Operation Hummingbird, invite a statistician to look at their data?
If not, ask, why.

The society has split into three groups. “The guilty” one, “the innocent” one and the group of people who, like me, are asking for a new retrial in a more enlightened spirit that would not exclude pertinent or potentially exculpatory information.

The three groups can not communicate and in the meantime, a young woman is serving a lifetime for the crimes that she, possibly, may not have committed.
 
Last edited:
  • #3,054
But you’re basing this on the trial transcripts, correct? Surely you’d need the police interview transcripts to work out who said what and when, exactly?

In the article I quoted, Johnson appears to set out how this conversation went down quite clearly:



He then concludes:

“Interestingly, at the end of this part of the interview she asked whether the police had access to the TPN bag that she had connected.”

So, to sum up:

She was asked about the TPN bags chart.
She confirmed her signature on the TPN form.
She couldn’t recall administering the TPN bag.
She then asked if the TPN bag had been kept.

The steps here appear perfectly logical. What in this sequence of events, in your view, suggests she was - as you put it - ‘one step ahead’?
No, police hadn't suggested to her that insulin was in the TPN. Even they were surprised at her question and asked why she'd asked about the bags. Why would she even think insulin would be in the TPN when it is never added to TPN? It's not a question here of a dosage error, she's assuming doctors would have checked for deliberate sabotage of the feed as a matter of routine. She didn't assume he might have been injected into his lines with neat insulin.

Police: “Okay, is there a reason why you’ve asked that question? What’s going through your mind?” asks the police officer. And what did you answer?

LL: “When something's happened in that time – you are asking me if I have given him insulin and I’m wondering if there’s an issue with something else.”

[...]

cross-examination:

LL: It wasn’t. But at this time I don’t think it was suggested it was in the bag.

--

As they did with all the babies, police were enquiring about her memory of the shift, her involvement with the baby, and every entry in the charts with her initials for that shift. It is as Nicholas Johnson KC set out in the opening speech you have quoted. There is no discrepancy between the reports, she asked if they'd kept the TPN bags without them suggesting it was in the TPN, and police noticed the oddity of it because they asked her what she was thinking when she asked the question. It's not difficult to follow the sequence.
 
  • #3,055
She states the prosecution said she must have injected insulin into the stock bags of fluid and wanted to know what happened to all the other bags with insulin in ....completely incorrect

Firstly it wasn't fluid it was TPN...if a clinicians refer to bags of fluid it's usually saline or dextrose..tpn is totally different.

Their case was she "May" have contaminated "one" bag of TPN which is stored in a fridge and very easy to see which will be used next as it will be on top.

Or

The insulin molecules which are sticky could have lingered in the giving sets or lines.

Why on earth is she stating about lots of bags of fluid contaminated with insulin

Because of people like her numerous members of the public are believing this nonsense
She was literally accused of poisoning several bags of dextrose ahead of time in the case of Baby L, and at least one bag of stock TPN in the case for Baby F, in addition to the bespoke TPN. If it is only the case that she “may” have poisoned stock TPN, then how did insulin get in a bag of TPN? Unless we’re back to questioning whether they simply re-hung the original bag against all standard practice and infection control, which wouldn’t particularly surprise me.

Giving sets are changed when the bags are changed, are they not? Is this not why the prosecution silently dropped its theory of sticky insulin after the opening statements?

What exactly has Dimitrova said that’s incorrect? Is a bag of dextrose not fluid?
 
  • #3,056
No there isn’t Katy. When everyone else made mistakes in the notes, or omitted notes completely, that was accepted as a mistake on a busy unit. When whenever Letby did it, it was made out to be a deliberate falsification.

You continue to ignore one of the key points in the Baby E case, time and time again. The mother described this fluid as dark and dried, specifically not fresh, not bleeding. This was nursery 1, there was another nurse in there. You really think a serial killer would attack a baby’s throat (?) and then leave the evidence long enough to dry in to the baby’s skin, in plain sight of the other staff and anyone else who may wander into the ward? How long would it take, for bleeding to dry in? So when was Letby’s attack? 8pm? Left for all to see until 9pm? And then left again for another hour.

Do you at least accept that if the mother’s account is accurate, then she did not witness Letby “mid-attack” and instead witnessed events quite some time after “attack”?

Also very lucky for Letby to have known in advance that the consultants unusually would waive the need for a post mortem, despite this baby losing almost half of his blood volume. But he didn’t go into shock, no, apparently babies can survive perfectly fine with no blood, no, this was “air embolism”.

It’s ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Would they ever in a million years have thought this baby was subjected to a physical attack, were it not for Letby being there? Of course not.

Where did you get the info that there was another nurse in the room? Is that preceding the mothers delivery of the milk? At 9pm

Blood doesnt take long to dry, as a matter of fact one of its purposes is to dry or congeal isnt it? That doesnt take long
 
  • #3,057
Did the Chester police, during the Operation Hummingbird, invite a statistician to look at their data?
If not, ask, why.

The society has split into three groups. “The guilty” one, “the innocent” one and the group of people who, like me, are asking for a new retrial in a more enlightened spirit that would not exclude pertinent or potentially exculpatory information.

The three groups can not communicate and in the meantime, a young woman is serving a lifetime for the crimes that she, possibly, may not have committed.

Why did Ben Myers not call a statistician for the defence? That is an interesting question. Why didn't he look into all the unexpected unexplained collapses which happened when Letby was on holiday or had left the unit.
 
  • #3,058
So I was right, a hospital unit is nothing like a dark park. Thanks.
Don't thank me. It makes no difference. And although the nursing number remains the same it's definitely less busy.
 
  • #3,059
No, police hadn't suggested to her that insulin was in the TPN. Even they were surprised at her question and asked why she'd asked about the bags. Why would she even think insulin would be in the TPN when it is never added to TPN? It's not a question here of a dosage error, she's assuming doctors would have checked for deliberate sabotage of the feed as a matter of routine. She didn't assume he might have been injected into his lines with neat insulin.



[...]

cross-examination:



--

As they did with all the babies, police were enquiring about her memory of the shift, her involvement with the baby, and every entry in the charts with her initials for that shift. It is as Nicholas Johnson KC set out in the opening speech you have quoted. There is no discrepancy between the reports, she asked if they'd kept the TPN bags without them suggesting it was in the TPN, and police noticed the oddity of it because they asked her what she was thinking when she asked the question. It's not difficult to follow the sequence.
She asked if they kept the “bags” and that’s indicative of being a poisoner? Didn’t this baby also have a bag of lipids in addition to the TPN?

Why would she think it was a bolus of insulin if the whole point of the case is that the blood sugar was low for a sustained period of time?

Edit: in fact, if she alluded at all to suggesting it was a bolus, the believers-in-guilt would be using it as yet another gotcha, Letby trying to deflect because deep down she knew it was in the bags.

The case and trial is a farce.
 
  • #3,060
No, police hadn't suggested to her that insulin was in the TPN. Even they were surprised at her question and asked why she'd asked about the bags. Why would she even think insulin would be in the TPN when it is never added to TPN? It's not a question here of a dosage error, she's assuming doctors would have checked for deliberate sabotage of the feed as a matter of routine. She didn't assume he might have been injected into his lines with neat insulin.



[...]

cross-examination:



--

As they did with all the babies, police were enquiring about her memory of the shift, her involvement with the baby, and every entry in the charts with her initials for that shift. It is as Nicholas Johnson KC set out in the opening speech you have quoted. There is no discrepancy between the reports, she asked if they'd kept the TPN bags without them suggesting it was in the TPN, and police noticed the oddity of it because they asked her what she was thinking when she asked the question. It's not difficult to follow the sequence.

They asked about insulin. They asked about the bags. The inference is surely obvious? She joined the dots! It’s hardly a crime to read between the lines.
 

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