GUILTY UK - Sadie Hartley, 60, murdered, Helmshore, Lancs, 14 Jan 2016 #1

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Trial resumes after lunch[/h][FONT=&quot]The trial has resumed after lunch.
The pathologist Dr Lumb is continuing to give evidence.
He says on Sadie Hartley’s body he found “no typical evidence of any fist fight injuries such as split lips, a broken nose or black eyes.”
He says: “There was some bruising on the back.
“These could have been caused by collapse or they could have been caused by a ‘throw’ attack or someone leaning on the deceased’s back.”
He adds there were two ‘burn’ marks on her cheek which he says are consistent with a ‘single thrust’ of a stun gun.
An electrode was also found in the polo neck collar of her jumper.
Mr Lumb gives Sadie Hartley’s cause of death as multiple stab and incise wounds.
He says damage to a major artery in the neck meant they were unsurvivable.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

 

[Cherwell]

Here’s an image of witness David Hardwick leaving court a short time ago.
He told the murder trial how he had been in a relationship with accused Sarah Williams since she was 17 and he was 57.

That is weird and icky. :yuck:

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]Defendants accused of attaching GPS device to car[/h][FONT=&quot]We’re now hearing evidence about the GPS tracker which the crown allege Miss Williams and Mrs Walsh bought and attached to the car of Sadie Hartley’s partner Ian Johnston.
John McDermott, prosecuting, says they had to purchase a second tracker after the first was lost or didn’t work, paying £174 for it.
The devices allow users to login into a server owned by the firm who supply them and follow the location.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

 

[cottonweaver]

Interesting testimony from DH there, saying Williams was never physically violent and she only had a temper like everyone else

( I so dislike it when people use that as an excuse, not everyone has a temper and there are degrees )

Anyway, here's a tweet from last week that I posted earlier in the thread

Aban Quaynor ‏@AbanQuaynorLT 6m6 minutes ago
Mr S said Williams threatened to kill male partner of friend who friend had problem with
He said Mr Hardwick was worried


So presumably DH has forgotten about this particular incident ?

I am still on page 3 of the thread, but I agree re BIBs as I was only just reading the day 3 testimony of Malcolm Evans, who knew Sarah Williams from the Chill Factory
He says on one trip to Italy in 2012 she got involved in an argument involving another couple and was very “aggressive.”
“The word that came to mind then and still does now was feral” he says of Sarah’s behaviour.

Feral is an extreme word, amongst other things, it implies completely out of control to me.

 

[Tortoise]

[h=3]GPS alerts sent to email address, court told[/h][FONT=&quot]Matt Lashley, from Lancashire Police, giving evidence, says users can also draw ‘Geo Zones’ on a map and get alerts when the tracker enters them.
The court hears about two of these zones created for the second device purchased on Mrs Walsh’s credit card.
One simply named ‘Chill’ was created around the Chill Factore in Trafford.
There was another called ‘The Love Shack’ drawn around Mr Johnston’s former address on Holcombe Road in Helmshore.
Mr Lashley says the alerts for these were sent to an email address, which they have established was created in September 2015 at Katrina Walsh’s home address.
All of the subsequent logins to the address have been linked to the server at Sarah Williams home he adds.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

 

[Tortoise]

GPS alerts sent to email address, court told

[FONT=&amp]Matt Lashley, from Lancashire Police, giving evidence, says users can also draw ‘Geo Zones’ on a map and get alerts when the tracker enters them.
The court hears about two of these zones created for the second device purchased on Mrs Walsh’s credit card.
One simply named ‘Chill’ was created around the Chill Factore in Trafford.
There was another called ‘The Love Shack’ drawn around Mr Johnston’s former address on Holcombe Road in Helmshore.
Mr Lashley says the alerts for these were sent to an email address, which they have established was created in September 2015 at Katrina Walsh’s home address.
All of the subsequent logins to the address have been linked to the server at Sarah Williams home he adds.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

BIB Further evidence that SW was framing KW, IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

I'll be popping out for a while if anyone wants to do the updates, otherwise I'll catch up later.

 

[cottonweaver]

I didn't expect to find these 2 had been friends for 18 years.
Is that close pals, do you think?

I was expecting Walsh to be someone dim/bit "lacking"/vulnerable who was alsoexploited in a newish friendship. Have the pair got up to dodgy dealings in the past?

Just as DH says SW wasn't aggressive, the saddler Anita Dodd says the same:

"She describes Sarah as “funny, confident, a thoroughly nice person, always up for a laugh.”....She says Katrina was a “quieter soul” but says the pair got on well and were good friends......Miss Dodd says: “I was blown away by it, I couldn’t believe it.
“I thought they must have got it wrong.”

I note that AD is a distant relative of DH though so she may be biased towards SW.

Gordon Cole representing Sarah Williams asks Miss Dodd if Kit Walsh had a “strange obsession with her?Miss Dodd replies: “I think she may been slightly in awe of her.”
However she says neither was dominant over the other saying “they both had different strengths.”

This level of violence described by the pathologist. Just awful. That's something you expect from someone suffering from a psychotic break or the influence of some wild drugs. How does a supposedly non-aggressive person summon up that type of frenzy.

Hmmm I'm watching this space and delving into your thread from page 4.

 

[Alyce]

[h=3]GPS alerts sent to email address, court told[/h][FONT="]Matt Lashley, from Lancashire Police, giving evidence, says users can also draw ‘Geo Zones’ on a map and get alerts when the tracker enters them.
The court hears about two of these zones created for the second device purchased on Mrs Walsh’s credit card.
One simply named ‘Chill’ was created around the Chill Factore in Trafford.
There was another called ‘The Love Shack’ drawn around Mr Johnston’s former address on Holcombe Road in Helmshore.
Mr Lashley says the alerts for these were sent to an email address, which they have established was created in September 2015 at Katrina Walsh’s home address.
All of the subsequent logins to the address have been linked to the server at Sarah Williams home he adds.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607748[/FONT]

Williams certainly did a good job of linking everything to Walsh didnt she. Think you're right Tortoise, Williams was setting Walsh up to take the blame.

 

[Alyce]

I didn't expect to find these 2 had been friends for 18 years.
Is that close pals, do you think?

I was expecting Walsh to be someone dim/bit "lacking"/vulnerable who was alsoexploited in a newish friendship. Have the pair got up to dodgy dealings in the past?

Just as DH says SW wasn't aggressive, the saddler Anita Dodd says the same:
I note that AD is a distant relative of DH though so she may be biased towards SW.



This level of violence described by the pathologist. Just awful. That's something you expect from someone suffering from a psychotic break or the influence of some wild drugs. How does a supposedly non-aggressive person summon up that type of frenzy.

Hmmm I'm watching this space and delving into your thread from page 4.

Agree, level of violence is extreme. The quote you reminded us of - the witness who described Williams as feral - sounds very apt for Williams.

 

[Alyce]

ANPR camera images

The jury are currently being shown ANPR camera images which the court is told show Sarah Williams’ Volvo travelling across the country to Hull on December 9 last year.

That’s when the prosecution allege she and Katrina Walsh boarded a ferry to Rotterdam before driving to Darmstadt in Germany to buy the 500,000 volt stun gun used in the attack on Sadie Hartley.

There are also ANPR ‘hits’ including in Yorkshire on the vehicle on Saturday December 12 with Mr McDermott saying “it is the prosecution’s case they had been to Germany and were on their way back.”

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/n...news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607883

 

[Alyce]

Trial to resume tomorrow

That concludes today’s evidence.
The trial resumes at 10.30am tomorrow morning.
We are expecting to hear from Sadie Hartley’s former partner Ian Johnston.

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/n...news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607883

 

[Alyce]

Ah so IanJ will be giving evidence. That should be interesting.

 

[cottonweaver]

Yes tomorrow will be interesting.

Gosh , I've only got to page 6. Loads of striking things but just on that flower delivery.
Sick & twisted and also fool-hardy as that could have made Sadie super-suspicious and as well as making SW/KW vulnerable to being spotted by witnesses.

Anyway, they must have had a reason beyond a twisted - "Here are your funeral flowers" motive - I wonder if they wanted to see if she would open the door without a safety latch?/Open the door at night? ( 8.30 , very dark winter's night. Some lone women would not open the door without using latch/calling "who is it " etc first.)

PS.Hate to say it but from IJ's response to Sadie's text, I wonder IF he guessed it was SW. All he replies is text “Not me xxxx.”. ( My OH wouldn't leave it at that and he is not a suspicious /jealous type- he would follow up with something eg "Who do you think they could be from" in case they were from an admirer etc)

ETA - Last point IJ thinks SW doesn't know where he lives, so maybe he wouldn't suspect anything SW-related re. flower delivery.

 

[Cherwell]

Trial to resume tomorrow

That concludes today’s evidence.
The trial resumes at 10.30am tomorrow morning.
We are expecting to hear from Sadie Hartley’s former partner Ian Johnston.

http://www.chesterchronicle.co.uk/n...news/sadie-hartley-murder-trial-live-11607883

"Former" partner? Bit harsh!

 

[Alyce]

Yes tomorrow will be interesting.

Gosh , I've only got to page 6. Loads of striking things but just on that flower delivery.
Sick & twisted and also fool-hardy as that could have made Sadie super-suspicious and as well as making SW/KW vulnerable to being spotted by witnesses.

Anyway, they must have had a reason beyond a twisted - "Here are your funeral flowers" motive - I wonder if they wanted to see if she would open the door without a safety latch?/Open the door at night? ( 8.30 , very dark winter's night. Some lone women would not open the door without using latch/calling "who is it " etc first.)

PS.Hate to say it but from IJ's response to Sadie's text, I wonder IF he guessed it was SW. All he replies is text “Not me xxxx.”. ( My OH wouldn't leave it at that and he is not a suspicious /jealous type- he would follow up with something eg "Who do you think they could be from" in case they were from an admirer etc)

ETA - Last point IJ thinks SW doesn't know where he lives, so maybe he wouldn't suspect anything SW-related re. flower delivery.

I do think the flowers were a trial run to check all the points you made.

Looking at maps, IJs former home was fairly close to the home Sadie rented in Helmshore so I suspect IJ did work out that Williams had found the address and was behind the flowers.

 

[Alyce]

"Former" partner? Bit harsh!

Must admit, when I was copying that over, I did a double take. I mean yes, technically he is an ex now, but it isnt usually the way it would be reported.

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&quot]Dr Lumb told the jury there were more than 51 injuries in total and there was evidence that the stun gun had been pushed against the left side of Ms Hartley’s head.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]She also suffered 24 stab wounds and 17 slash wounds to the face, head, neck, chest, back, arms and right leg.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]They included wounds to the depth of nearly 8in (20cm) - up to the hilt of the kitchen knife allegedly used by Williams.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ms Hartley suffered deep stab wounds to her face, one of which went through her face and out the other side, with a similar wound to her neck, which cut a main artery. There were further injuries to both hands and arms, with the blade going right through her right thumb and right arm, which Dr Lumb said were “typical” defence wounds from fighting off a knife attacker.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He added: “Almost certainly there’s been an effort to defend against a knife attack.”
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/sadie-hartley-died-orgy-demonic-11610893



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[JerricaBenton]

That is horrific! That SW is a very evil and disturbed person

 

[cottonweaver]

I do think the flowers were a trial run to check all the points you made.

Looking at maps, IJs former home was fairly close to the home Sadie rented in Helmshore so I suspect IJ did work out that Williams had found the address and was behind the flowers.

Thankyou, Good link

I didn't u'stand these references I picked up :
Mr Johnston’s former address on Holcombe Road in Helmshore ( no dates)

vs

Hartley met Mr Johnston almost a decade ago and they lived in Mrs Hartley's home in the picture postcard village of Great Budworth, Cheshire. She sold up, 18 months before death , ie.circa summer 2015

So basically, he had a 2nd property during some of that decade's relationship.

I do feel very sorry for IJ, he wasn't to know SW was going to turn a dangerous murderer.
The evil duo seem to revel in all this planning- I keep thinking of Joanne Dennehy - that real enjoyment of the pursuit of her quarry.
( Strange that holidays are mixed in with evil plotting, German Xmas drinks after buying a stun gun, Xmas holidays to France with DH whilst finalising the "mission."
I was going to say Fatal Attraction"s "AlexForrest" character/Play Misty For Me - but actually seems more than obsessive stalker, seems gratuitous & thrill seeking. They are both getting off on the detail & there are "teenage" aspects to it & KW is 55 yrs of age FGS!

( Bear with me, I may we way off-base with these opinions - haven't caught up.)