GUILTY UK - Sara Sharif, 10, found murdered in house, Surrey, Aug 2023 *POIs ARREST* #5

[su5ie]

I think most people agree with the principle you have outlined. We all know that anonymity for judges is not the norm and I'm inclined to think the appeal judges will finally feel the principle must be upheld.

But the judges concerned did not ask for anonymity originally, and the judge who was actually involved in the (as we now know) catastrophically misguided custody order has made no comment. The situation has been complicated by the decision of Mr Justice Williams to impose a ban on naming them after he permitted the release of documents from the family courts, initially without giving reasons, and then to make a number of comments hostile to the media. It's a pity he did that!

It's caused the appeal by two journalists backed by a number of major media outlets.

The result has been to heighten interest in their identities and many people wrongly assume all three were involved in giving custody to Urfan Sharif and Beinash Batool. The arguments against the appeal are being made because of this increased interest.

JMO

I wonder is protection being given to the judges involved because prehaps it would open a can of worms on other cases that they awarded custody to what may be precieved as the " wrong "parent or would it set a precedent for former defendants to appeal any cases they did preside over in the past whether family or criminal. The judges involved may not have remained in the family courts .

Doesn't make it right but I always feel when a judge recieves this veil of secrecy, it means there is more to it going on

 

[Cherwell]

Considering that U is over 40 and his sentence is around 40 years before parole date, it, IMO, is really a whole life order.
Each year in prison seems to count as 2 in terms of aging. (Stress, diet, conditions)
But,appealing "unduly lenient" sentence seems to me the reaction to U's own appeal for reducing the number of years.
Tug of war.

I guess nothing will change with the sentence as the Trial Judge was "the right person at the right place" and the sentence was meticulously thought over and justified.
It is "appealproof" IMO

We are talking about "Old Bailey" after all

I disagree. One of the starting points for a whole life order is
the murder of a child if involving ...... sadistic motivation
I can't see any way that this doesn't apply to the treatment of Sara.

 

[Dotta]

I disagree. One of the starting points for a whole life order is
the murder of a child if involving ...... sadistic motivation
I can't see any way that this doesn't apply to the treatment of Sara.

But the same refers to:
- Arthur LH
- Logan M
- Sebastian K
- Daniel P
and countless other murdered children - victims of abuse/sadistic treatment.

Were the perps given whole life sentences?

I stand firmly behind the Trial Judge Mr Justice Cavanagh.

JMO

 

[su5ie]

I disagree. One of the starting points for a whole life order is
the murder of a child if involving ...... sadistic motivation
I can't see any way that this doesn't apply to the treatment of Sara.

I feel the torture of Sara was sadistic tbh . And by receiving a whole life order instead of a 40 year sentence it will imo be more fitting for the crime . What those three did to Sara was among the most inhumane and depraved acts I've read about in a long time . It would have been kinder for her to have died from the first beating. The sadistic ways in which they inflicted the torture would not be unheard of in a concentration camp or some Cold War era PoW camp imo

 

[Cherwell]

But the same refers to:
- Arthur LH
- Logan M
- Sebastian K
- Daniel P
and countless other murdered children - victims of abuse/sadistic treatment.

Were the perps given whole life sentences?

I stand firmly behind the Trial Judge Mr Justice Cavanagh.

JMO

<modsnip - personalizing>
I don't know, I didn't follow all of those cases. Perhaps they should have been given whole life sentences.
I'm only giving my opinion on this case.

 

[Moll]

I wonder is protection being given to the judges involved because prehaps it would open a can of worms on other cases that they awarded custody to what may be precieved as the " wrong "parent or would it set a precedent for former defendants to appeal any cases they did preside over in the past whether family or criminal. The judges involved may not have remained in the family courts .

Doesn't make it right but I always feel when a judge recieves this veil of secrecy, it means there is more to it going on

Well, it never happens normally, that's the point. As I understand it the amount of information that was disclosed to journalists at the end of the trial was unprecedented for the family courts, but then the judge (also a family court judge) thought the judges involved needed to be protected. This was his very detailed judgment on the subject that is now being appealed:

Sharif — Disclosure and Publication Judgment - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

[2024] EWHC 3330 (Fam) Case number: FD23P00425 In the High Court of JusticeFamily Division 19 December 2024 Before: The Honourable Mr Justice Williams Between: (1) Louise Tickle(2) Hannah Summers(3) The British Broadcasting Corporation(4) PA Media(5) Associated Newspapers Ltd(6) Times Media...

www.judiciary.uk

The issue is not some secretive thing behind closed doors and it is only the judges' identity that he proposed to protect. Having said all that I think I am on the side of disclosure, but I also have some sympathy with the other side.

 

[Moll]

I wonder is protection being given to the judges involved because prehaps it would open a can of worms on other cases that they awarded custody to what may be precieved as the " wrong "parent or would it set a precedent for former defendants to appeal any cases they did preside over in the past whether family or criminal. The judges involved may not have remained in the family courts .

Doesn't make it right but I always feel when a judge recieves this veil of secrecy, it means there is more to it going on

Apologies for coming back to this, Susie, but last night I didn't explain what I meant as clearly as I wanted to.
<modsnip> There was an unprecedented disclosure of documents in this case from the family court following a request from the journalists who are now contesting the anonymity of the judges involved. Police, social workers and others are never named.The report below was linked on here at the time:

Inexperienced social worker did not identify Sara Sharif’s father as posing any risk

The murdered girl had been allowed to live with her father, who had repeatedly attracted the attention of police and social workers

www.theguardian.com

The judgment I linked to in my previous post gives Mr Justice Williams' reasons why. It's hardly a matter of a conspiracy of silence.

I think the precedence issue is the other way round - judges can normally be named and it would not be desirable for a precedent of anonymity to be set.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

“Sara was a brave, feisty and spirited child. She was not submissive as you wanted her to be. She stood up to you

Bid to review ‘unduly lenient’ murder sentence for Sara Sharif’s father

Solicitor General Lucy Rigby referred Urfan Sharif’s sentence to the Court of Appeal under the Unduly Lenient Sentence scheme.

www.shropshirestar.com

 

[Dotta]

"Appeal won ​

to name Sara Sharif's family court judges.​

Three judges who oversaw family court proceedings related to the care of Sara Sharif before she was murdered
will be named next week,
the Court of Appeal has ruled.

Geoffrey Vos said:
'In the circumstances of this case,
the judge had no jurisdiction to anonymise the historic judges either on 9 December 2024 or thereafter.

'He was wrong to do so'."

Sara Sharif: Appeal won to name girl's family court judges - BBC News

A decision not to name judges in historical family court cases about Sara's care has been appealed.

www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org

 

[Moll]

They must be wishing Mr Justice Williams had not drawn attention to them. Otherwise, it was a routine matter that their names were available.

 

[Dotta]

They must be wishing Mr Justice Williams had not drawn attention to them. Otherwise, it was a routine matter that their names were available.

We have this saying in my country:

"Overzealousness is worse than fascism”.



Meaning:
Overzealousness,
understood as excessive involvement in certain activities,
leads to fanaticism and blindness,
which limits the ability to think rationally.

By the way,
It's a humorous saying hehe

JMO

 

[Moll]

We have this saying in my country:

"Overzealousness is worse than fascism”.

I'm not sure this was overzealousness...It was not very bright of him, in my opinion! Especially with all the added insults to the media he included, only to be opposed by respectable media outlets like the BBC.

 

[Dotta]

DM picked it too

"Sir Geoffrey Vos,
sitting with Lady Justice King and Lord Justice:

'It is the role of the judge to sit in public
and, even if sitting in private,
to be identified...

Judges will sit on many types of case in which feelings run high,
and where there may be risks to their personal safety'."

Judges who let Sara Sharif live with her killer father can be named

A High Court judge sparked outrage in December after ruling that the media could not identify three judges who oversaw court cases related to Sara.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Appeal won to name Sara Sharif's family court judges​

IMAGE SOURCE, SURREY POLICE
Image caption,
Sara Sharif's body was found at her home in Woking on 10 August 2023

Sara Sharif: Appeal won to name girl's family court judges

A decision not to name judges in historical family court cases about Sara's care has been appealed.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Moll]

There's a more detailed assessment of the appeal from Joshua Rozenberg here:

Judges can be named

Mr Justice Williams ‘got carried away’, appeal court says

rozenberg.substack.com

which makes it clear how heavily the Judge was criticised by the appeal court for having made this decision when no one had asked for it, and without a proper legal basis.

He finishes:
'Having decided that the three judges could be named, the Court of Appeal said the existing restrictions would remain in place for another week so that the courts service could “put measures in place to protect them from any potential harm once their names are released”.

'That means it will become lawful for reporters to identify the three judges at 10am this Friday. There will be no further order or announcement and so it will be up to news organisations to decide whether to name them.

Judges 1 and 2 are now retired and had only limited involvement in the Sharif case. One made a single protective order removing the children into care on an emergency basis. The other made an interim care order ensuring that the children did not return to the care of either parent whilst risk assessments were being carried out.

If the third judge is put at risk as a result of being named, Williams may well think he was right all along and the Court of Appeal should not have overruled him. But that would be to ignore the fact that any danger to the third judge must have been increased by Williams’s decision to focus public attention on the issue.'

 

[Moll]

Article in the Observer by the two journalists who initiated the appeal against anonymisation of the family court judges:

Our challenge to the ban on naming Sara Sharif judges was always about scrutiny, not blame | Louise Tickle and Hannah Summers

Light must be shed on the vital life-changing decisions that are made behind closed doors in Britain’s family courts

www.theguardian.com

They conclude:
'Our appeal was never about naming and shaming individual judges; it was about the wider principle that those who exercise state power need to be known. If we anonymise these judges, where does it end? Many state organisations and professionals were involved in the child protection concerns relating to the Sharif children. It is our hope that the judges will be seen as just one element in that broader picture. What is needed now is real effort to work out what went wrong in this heartbreaking case where a young girl’s life was taken, and what might need to change. Information and scrutiny are vital tools in this endeavour.'

A number of media outlets have now reported the appeal court judgment, both MSM and legal commentators' blogs, but I don't think they add anything further.

 

[Dotta]

"Sara Sharif's killer father
is moved to 'Monster Mansion' jail
where Colin Pitchfork, Levi Bellfield and Wayne Couzens are behind bars
after having his throat slashed with tuna tin.



Sharif has reportedly been moved to Category A Frankland jail (pictured),
after being attacked at a previous prison.



The source claimed Sharif was moved into the prison earlier this week,
with all the prisoners forced to stay in their cells
so he couldn't be harmed.

The Ministry of Justice
declined to comment on the supposed move.

Frankland itself has seen a string of attacks on prison guards in recent months.
A police officer was left seriously ill in July last year after being stabbed in the chest."

Sara Sharif's father 'transferred to infamous maximum security jail'

Sara Sharif 's killer father has reportedly been transferred to a maximum security jail that is notorious for housing several other high profile murderers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh dear...

Will he be moved among prisons like Axel R.?
They might even meet somewhere while changing places.
Passing like ships in the night.

"Pitchfork"???
Jeez
That sounds dangerous!
More so than tuna tin lid.

JMO

 

[su5ie]

Apologies for coming back to this, Susie, but last night I didn't explain what I meant as clearly as I wanted to.
<modsnip> There was an unprecedented disclosure of documents in this case from the family court following a request from the journalists who are now contesting the anonymity of the judges involved. Police, social workers and others are never named.The report below was linked on here at the time:

Inexperienced social worker did not identify Sara Sharif’s father as posing any risk

The murdered girl had been allowed to live with her father, who had repeatedly attracted the attention of police and social workers

www.theguardian.com

The judgment I linked to in my previous post gives Mr Justice Williams' reasons why. It's hardly a matter of a conspiracy of silence.

I think the precedence issue is the other way round - judges can normally be named and it would not be desirable for a precedent of anonymity to be set.

Thank you for that clarification , appreciated

 

[su5ie]

"Sara Sharif's killer father
is moved to 'Monster Mansion' jail
where Colin Pitchfork, Levi Bellfield and Wayne Couzens are behind bars
after having his throat slashed with tuna tin.

View attachment 560990

Sharif has reportedly been moved to Category A Frankland jail (pictured),
after being attacked at a previous prison.

View attachment 560991

The source claimed Sharif was moved into the prison earlier this week,
with all the prisoners forced to stay in their cells
so he couldn't be harmed.

The Ministry of Justice
declined to comment on the supposed move.

Frankland itself has seen a string of attacks on prison guards in recent months.
A police officer was left seriously ill in July last year after being stabbed in the chest."

Sara Sharif's father 'transferred to infamous maximum security jail'

Sara Sharif 's killer father has reportedly been transferred to a maximum security jail that is notorious for housing several other high profile murderers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh dear...

Will he be moved among prisons like Axel R.?
They might even meet somewhere while changing places.
Passing like ships in the night.

"Pitchfork"???
Jeez
That sounds dangerous!
More so than tuna tin lid.

JMO

Sound like a rough prison...lovely delighted ,prehaps the prison guards at this one will turn an even blinder eye .
An eye for an eye ,for what one sows one will reap . See how much sharif is willing to turn the other cheek . Wonder will urfan deem his own punishments justifiable under the guise of religion

 

[iamshadow21]

"Sara Sharif's killer father
is moved to 'Monster Mansion' jail
where Colin Pitchfork, Levi Bellfield and Wayne Couzens are behind bars
after having his throat slashed with tuna tin.

View attachment 560990

Sharif has reportedly been moved to Category A Frankland jail (pictured),
after being attacked at a previous prison.

View attachment 560991

The source claimed Sharif was moved into the prison earlier this week,
with all the prisoners forced to stay in their cells
so he couldn't be harmed.

The Ministry of Justice
declined to comment on the supposed move.

Frankland itself has seen a string of attacks on prison guards in recent months.
A police officer was left seriously ill in July last year after being stabbed in the chest."

Sara Sharif's father 'transferred to infamous maximum security jail'

Sara Sharif 's killer father has reportedly been transferred to a maximum security jail that is notorious for housing several other high profile murderers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh dear...

Will he be moved among prisons like Axel R.?
They might even meet somewhere while changing places.
Passing like ships in the night.

"Pitchfork"???
Jeez
That sounds dangerous!
More so than tuna tin lid.

JMO

Colin Pitchfork was a serial killer in everything but body count, and was the first offender caught and convicted with DNA.

MOO