UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #2

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  • #1,361
Because the CPS applied the full code test and their expert assessment was that the weight of evidence would not meet the first stage, as follows:

Is there enough evidence against the defendant?

When deciding whether there is enough evidence to charge, Crown Prosecutors must consider whether evidence can be used in court and is reliable and credible, and there is no other material that might affect the sufficiency of evidence. Crown Prosecutors must be satisfied there is enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction" against each defendant.


My thoughts are that the way the initial publicity was managed by the police undermined the strength of witness evidence and the opportunities to gather further evidence.

These were the days before social media, so the police had the opportunity for far more control over the information that was in the public domain and they could manage the press for the benefit of the investigation. The initial actions in any major investigation/incident have a significant influence on the outcome.

This is really helpful, thank you!

On this basis I think there is simply no real evidence at all to convict JC. There is actually nothing, except "he was within 10 miles of where SJL was", "he later went on to abduct and kill a young woman", " he had previous for rape" and "he looks a bit like the efit that HR said was the male outside the SR property". This would just be demolished in court.

THen we have some "sightings" of him that were remembered 10 years after events, which would be demolished in a court, for obvious reasons. These sightings are not worth anything at all.

Maybe it was him but there is no evidence to present to a court except "you know what, he's a bad person who did a similar crime a bit later on, he is the sort of person who would do this. He does look a bit like an efit that one guy gave us who later turned out to be an unreliable witness and is now dead anyway. Some people who don't know him and never met him came forward after we asked them to 10 years later and claim to remember seeing this stranger they never met looking in a shop window". A child could demolish these arguments.

There is no way to prove he was in the area or knew SJL or anyone around her. No one else remembers him knowing her or being around, she had a busy social life so when did she see him when no one else of her mates or circle saw him?

If JC called the estate agency on Saturday and arranged to make a viewing how come SJL did not take down his details and enter them into the system as she was meant to and did every time before? SHe was a diligent employee. Why does Mr Kipper have no first name, no phone number, no address, no details. If he came in on the Monday someone would have seen him and heard him, also if you are going to abduct and murder someone would you parade yourself in front of their colleagues minutes before you committed this crime? Obviously not. Either he was a last minute telephone booking, or most likely made him up and the other staff knew this as it was probably something they did from time to time. No questions asked, don't do it very often.

There really is no case here.

Plus he has already been convicted in the Court of Twitter and A Few True Crime Books so it would not even be a fair trial. THe courts could not allow an unfair trial based on zero evidence that appears to be wishful thinking on behalf of the police that this wrong un is also responsible for this crime.

If he is responsible it is horrific that he isn't punished for it but we can't try and convict people based on "well he did it to someone else".
 
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  • #1,362
I have a thought that the diary, cheque book and postcard may have been 'borrowed' from SJL at Worthing, by a 'third party', who was trying to identify her previous movements or who she had been meeting. Could they have been 'left' in a convenient location outside the PoW late on the Sunday evening after the customers were seen to leave, for the Landlord to find and seek to return them? This person has obviously been eliminated of any involvement in SJL's disappearance.

Something that also occurred to me: that this person ‘lifted’ the diary at some point but then engineered its reappearance in a plausible location, perhaps due to remorse following further contact with SJL on Sunday evening. To such a person, the realisation many years later that his actions may (albeit inadvertently) have led directly SJL’s disappearance/death might come as a severe shock.
 
  • #1,363
I think at this point I should apologise to @TimFisher1965 for being initially dismissive of his additional research - unfortunately “I know a thing, but I can’t tell anyone” is a bit of a recurring meme on WS threads and cynically I interpreted his earlier comments in this way. Coming back after as few days I see that I was wrong in this case and that Tim has been very forthcoming about what he has learned. Sorry, Tim.

Also, having now (finally) read the DV book I can very much understand his view that SJL’s disappearance may have related to events in the office earlier that morning.

Over all, my impression of the DV book is that while he does make a strong case for a ‘fake viewing,’ I am not entirely convinced by the PoW connection. DV’s argument for this seems to hang largely on the pub being closed after 12.45pm, whereas the evidence of the stocktaker and ZH suggest that the stocktaking was completed and signed off before 12pm, in order to enable the pub to open for lunchtime as normal.
 
  • #1,364
Dbl
 
  • #1,365
If SL was driving towards home to collect something, why didn't she pencil in Stevenage Rd instead of Shorrolds Rd?
 
  • #1,366
This is really helpful, thank you!

On this basis I think there is simply no real evidence at all to convict JC. There is actually nothing, except "he was within 10 miles of where SJL was", "he later went on to abduct and kill a young woman", " he had previous for rape" and "he looks a bit like the efit that HR said was the male outside the SR property".
Agree with all this and everything else you wrote. In fact, a key question really is, why actually do the police think he did it? There is no evidence to persuade them to this view, so why do they insist on it?

I think to answer this, you have understand the police's MO and success record in murder cases. The police think they're pretty good at clearing up murders, with a claimed clearup rate of about 90%. But that's largely a statistical artefact, arrived at by counting only the 750 or so a year where there's a body and someone's obviously been killed. There are in addition 170,000 missing persons per year. 167,500 or so of the missing do turn up, but the remaining 2,500 permanently vanish. This is because they're dead, of course, but they aren't counted into the murder totals because they're considered only "missing". When you include those 2,500 as well, the police only solve 75 of 3,250 murders a year, which is about 2% of these crimes.

What persuades me that this estimate is about right is that you can sort of audit / sense-check it against police success with other crimes. When you do, you see it is a police failure rate consistent with their overall record, i.e. about 94%. The police fail to solve about 98% of reported burglaries, for example. So my Fermi estimates that there are 3,250 murders really, and that 98% go unsolved, look consistent with police performance generally. In fact, if you were a stats nerd, you could probably SWAG how many of the 2,500 are murdered by inferring it from the police clear-up rate: I make it about 95%.

These crimes - missing people who've in fact been murdered, break-ins - have something in common: they're usually committed by strangers. Acknowledged murders aren't, but permanent disappearances are another matter. Burglars don't often burgle people they know, which means it could have been anyone. Likewise if a woman is found dead in the house and there's a bloke with a knife it's easy to solve. That's one of the easy 750. If she's killed at apparent random, that's one of the 2,500, and the police find those pretty much insoluble. It could have been anyone. If you're a murderer and you can make your random victim disappear, you're safe, basically.

Understanding this very well, the police have historically evolved an approach to solving these crimes: they fit up the local weirdo. If there's no weirdo, they frame a suitable known villain. If there's no evidence, they may make some. Evidence that acquits the local weirdo or suitable villain is suppressed.

So Stefan Kiszko was fitted up for the murder of Lesley Molseed. He was retarded, owned a number of girlie magazines and there was a bag of sweets in his car. He was obviously guilty so he was duly fitted up. It was only after he had done years in prison that it emerged he was clinically infertile whereas her killer had left sperm on his victim's body. The police knew this, and other evidence that absolved him, but withheld it from his defence.

Joanna Yeates was murdered in 2010. The police initially accused his landlord, who looked a bit weird and hence probably did it. They leaked information to the press, who tried him in their pages and later had to pay libel damages when someone else was jailed.

Jill Dando was forced to the ground and killed by one shot to the head, fired by a thin, bearded man described by several witnesses. Police fitted up the chubby, clean-shaven Barry George, the local weirdo. He was interested in guns but didn't own any and had a shrine to JD in his house, although the police couldn't show that it was there before she was killed. He was duly released on appeal and the French now think a hitman killed the wrong blonde BBC journalist.

Colin Stagg was the local unemployed loser weirdo when Rachel Nickell was killed. There were no good witnesses but the police decided to fit him up, so they got a WPC to make some evidence. She pretended to be another weirdo and befriended him. Wearing a wire, she tried to persuade him that she'd be really impressed if he'd killed her, and he might even get sex (he was a virgin). When the judge cancelled the trial because the police evidence was a disgrace, the police sulkily announced they weren't looking for anyone else. Robert Napper was convicted of her murder.

For a long time - until they decided it was the bloke from Wearside - the Ripper police thought it was a local weirdo minicab driver who was an alleged peeping tom. Every time the Ripper killed they arrested him, held him illegally for days and tried to make him confess. Some of the senior officers involved had previously framed the Birmingham Six, who had been fitted up because it was an IRA bomb and they were Irish, so they were suitable.

The SJL case was always going to be challenging because having exhausted her acquaintances, it was logically a stranger who did it. Lacking a local weirdo to fit up, the police seized gratefully on JC and decided he did it, even saying so in public. They haven't anything on which to base even a charge, but it fits him because he's a wrong 'un and they think he did other things too. By putting it out there they get people to come forward with "evidence" that they've made. It's only because of those bureaucrats at the CPS that he's not been charged.

The police, therefore, almost certainly don't actually think JC did it, because the evidence would not persuade anyone. However, they maintain he did it because this way it looks like they've got their man, and he'll do for it very well. A really good frame is when nobody cares who you've framed, and nobody cares about Cannan.

Evenin', all.
 
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  • #1,367
If SL was driving towards home to collect something, why didn't she pencil in Stevenage Rd instead of Shorrolds Rd?
37 shorrolds Road was unoccupied and new to the market, 123 Stevenage Road was occupied. If SL’s goal was to provide a plausible cover 37 Shorrolds Road could not be checked but 123 Stevenage could with the incumbent owner. 37 Shorrolds road could be dismissed as a no show with no way to disprove thus providing the perfect cover. IMO
I think at this point I should apologise to @TimFisher1965 for being initially dismissive of his additional research - unfortunately “I know a thing, but I can’t tell anyone” is a bit of a recurring meme on WS threads and cynically I interpreted his earlier comments in this way. Coming back after as few days I see that I was wrong in this case and that Tim has been very forthcoming about what he has learned. Sorry, Tim.

Also, having now (finally) read the DV book I can very much understand his view that SJL’s disappearance may have related to events in the office earlier that morning.

Over all, my impression of the DV book is that while he does make a strong case for a ‘fake viewing,’ I am not entirely convinced by the PoW connection. DV’s argument for this seems to hang largely on the pub being closed after 12.45pm, whereas the evidence of the stocktaker and ZH suggest that the stocktaking was completed and signed off before 12pm, in order to enable the pub to open for lunchtime as normal.
apology accepted, I know much more I have to decide what I reveal and to who. My researcher friend and DV have seen all
 
  • #1,368
Agree with all this and everything else you wrote. In fact, a key question really is, why actually do the police think he did it? There is no evidence to persuade them to this view, so why do they insist on it?

I think to answer this, you have understand the police's MO and success record in murder cases. The police think they're pretty good at clearing up murders, with a claimed clearup rate of about 90%. But that's largely a statistical artefact, arrived at by counting only the 750 or so a year where there's a body and someone's obviously been killed. There are in addition 170,000 missing persons per year. 167,500 or so of the missing do turn up, but the remaining 2,500 permanently vanish. This is because they're dead, of course, but they aren't counted into the murder totals because they're considered only "missing". When you include those 2,500 as well, the police only solve 75 of 3,250 murders a year, which is about 2% of these crimes.

What persuades me that this estimate is about right is that you can sort of audit / sense-check it against police success with other crimes. When you do, you see it is a police failure rate consistent with their overall record on other crimes, i.e. about 94%. The police fail to solve about 98% of reported burglaries, for example. So my Fermi estimates that there are 3,250 murders really, and that 98% go unsolved, look consistent with police performance generally. In fact, if you were a stats nerd, you could probably SWAG how many of the 2,500 are murdered by inferring it from the police clear-up rate: I make it about 95%.

These crimes - missing people who've in fact been murdered, break-ins - have something in common: they're usually committed by strangers. Acknowledged murders aren't, but permanent disappearances are another matter. Burglars don't often burgle people they know, which means it could have been anyone. Likewise if a woman is found dead in the house and there's a bloke with a knife it's easy to solve. That's one of the easy 750. If she's killed at apparent random, that's one of the 2,500, and the police find those pretty much insoluble. It could have been anyone. If you're a murderer and you can make your random victim disappear, you're safe, basically.

Understanding this very well, the police have historically evolved an approach to solving these crimes: they fit up the local weirdo. If there's no weirdo, they frame a suitable known villain. If there's no evidence, they may make some. Evidence that acquits the local weirdo or suitable villain is suppressed.

So Stefan Kiszko was fitted up for the murder of Lesley Molseed. He was retarded, owned a number of girlie magazines and there was a bag of sweets in his car. He was obviously guilty so he was duly fitted up. It was only after he had done years in prison that it emerged he was clinically infertile whereas her killer had left sperm on his victim's body. The police knew this, and other evidence that absolved him, but withheld it from his defence.

Joanna Yeates was murdered in 2010. The police initially accused his landlord, who looked a bit weird and hence probably did it. They leaked information to the press, who tried him in their pages and later had to pay libel damages when someone else was jailed.

Jill Dando was forced to the ground and killed by one shot to the head, fired by a thin, bearded man described by several witnesses. Police fitted up the chubby, clean-shaven Barry George, the local weirdo. He was interested in guns but didn't own any and had a shrine to JD in his house, although the police couldn't show that it was there before she was killed. He was duly released on appeal and the French now think a hitman killed the wrong blonde BBC journalist.

Colin Stagg was the local unemployed loser weirdo when Rachel Nickell was killed. There were no good witnesses but the police decided to fit him up, so they got a WPC to make some evidence. She pretended to be another weirdo and befriended him. Wearing a wire, she tried to persuade him that she'd be really impressed if he'd killed her, and he might even get sex (he was a virgin). When the judge cancelled the trial because the police evidence was a disgrace, the police sulkily announced they weren't looking for anyone else. Robert Napper was convicted of her murder.

For a long time - until they decided it was the bloke from Wearside - the Ripper police thought it was a local weirdo minicab driver who was an alleged peeping tom. Every time the Ripper killed they arrested him, held him illegally for days and tried to make him confess. Some of the senior officers involved had previously framed the Birmingham Six, who had been fitted up because it was an IRA bomb and they were Irish, so they were suitable.

The SJL case was always going to be challenging because having exhausted her acquaintances, it was logically a stranger who did it. Lacking a local weirdo to fit up, the police seized gratefully on JC and decided he did it, even saying so in public. They haven't anything on which to base even a charge, but it fits him because he's a wrong 'un and they think he did other things too. By putting it out there they get people to come forward with "evidence" that they've made. It's only because of those bureaucrats at the CPS that he's not been charged.

The police, therefore, almost certainly don't actually think JC did it, because the evidence would not persuade anyone. However, they maintain he did it because this way it looks like they've got their man, and he'll do for it very well. A really good frame is when nobody cares who you've framed, and nobody cares about Cannan.

Evenin', all.
Not a good track record is it, maybe this is why DV uses the anagram “Clearly Bent” in his book for a key police officer.
If we take it that JC & CV didn’t know SJL then they are both strangers, so are (like thousands of others) suspects and fair game for the police.
Problems start when you try to make sense of her disappearance and pinpoint a suspect from her circle of friends.
You might have been able to check them out 30 plus years ago, but have no real chance now.
Whoever disposed of SJL did a good job and IMO unless a search of the PoW / railway embankment reveals it she’d not going to be found.
 
  • #1,369
37 shorrolds Road was unoccupied and new to the market, 123 Stevenage Road was occupied. If SL’s goal was to provide a plausible cover 37 Shorrolds Road could not be checked but 123 Stevenage could with the incumbent owner. 37 Shorrolds road could be dismissed as a no show with no way to disprove thus providing the perfect cover. IMO

apology accepted, I know much more I have to decide what I reveal and to who. My researcher friend and DV have seen all
IMO BW needs interviewing, she was dismissed (as it appears) by DV, but I feel may have more to pass on than is in AS’s book.
 
  • #1,370
Not a good track record is it, maybe this is why DV uses the anagram “Clearly Bent” in his book for a key police officer.
If we take it that JC & CV didn’t know SJL then they are both strangers, so are (like thousands of others) suspects and fair game for the police.
Problems start when you try to make sense of her disappearance and pinpoint a suspect from her circle of friends.
You might have been able to check them out 30 plus years ago, but have no real chance now.
Whoever disposed of SJL did a good job and IMO unless a search of the PoW / railway embankment reveals it she’d not going to be found.

The police say JC is their man and DL said they were not looking for anyone else. Which doesnt leave them open to looking into anyone else.

If as an increasing amount of people believe he has been stitched up, Im sure they would be very sceptical of any confession said to have come from JC on his deathbed I know I would.
 
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The police say JC is their man and DL said they were not looking for anyone else. Which doesnt leave them open to looking into anyone else.

If as an increasing amount of people believe he has been stitched up, Im sure they would be very sceptical of any confession said to have come from JC on his deathbed I know I would.
Yes but did the police know the legal advisor to the lamplugh was related to the solicitor JC had an affair with? That’s not suss at all is it??
 
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  • #1,372
Yes but did the police know the legal advisor to the lamplugh was relayed to the solicitor JC had an affair with? That’s not suss at all is it??
I think you meant related :)
 
  • #1,373
Yes but did the police know the legal advisor to the lamplugh was relayed to the solicitor JC had an affair with? That’s not suss at all is it??
JC stalked Annabel Rose and threatened to destroy her career after he was dumped. Fortunately, her uncle destroyed JC instead
 
  • #1,374
Yes but did the police know the legal advisor to the lamplugh was relayed to the solicitor JC had an affair with? That’s not suss at all is it??
That’s how he became Prime Suspect, this sort of thing really gets in the way when you just want justice.
 
  • #1,375
I am not sure I buy this. It assumes a degree of police diligence and effectiveness that we have not seen.

Chapter 66 of DV's book gives a good account of how JC came to be associated with this case. The SJL case was closed at the end of 1987 as having reached a dead end; the police had proved, unsurprisingly, unable to find a non-existent person. When JC was arrested in 88 or 89 for the murder of Shirley Banks, the News of the World got hold of his criminal history and published it, along with their speculation that he was Mr Kipper. DL and Pl then co-opted this speculation to demand that the SJL case be reopened. Both the Met and Somerset and Avon police dismissed JC as a suspect, as there was no evidence against him.

DL and PL spent the next ten years insisting that JC was SJL's killer. They eventually got the investigation reopened against a background climate - the Macpherson report etc - in which the police looked bad for not being sufficiently sensitive to bereaved families. The aim of the reopened inquiry wasn't to start from scratch but to find evidence against JC, and as there wasn't any the police went on a mission to manufacture some, by telling the public at every turn that JC was a suspect and soliciting sightings of him fourteen years after the event. They still ended up with nothing but at DL's behest they announced that JC did it.

That assertion alone tells you the police have no evidence. If they did, such a public statement would be grossly prejudicial to any trial of JC. The police made the statement because they'd failed to present the CPS with any evidence and because they knew there would never be any such trial to prejudice. But there are other ways in which the way they have pursued JC is revealing. The "lead" actually came from the Lamplughs, not from following evidence. Instead of gathering evidence and looking at what suspects it leads them to, they are doing it exactly backwards - they've decided JC did it and they're trying to find evidence against him, ignoring everything else. Where necessary they are manufacturing that evidence - by launching appeals for more 14 years later, for example, and treating obviously fabricated nonsense as having value. They're still on a fishing trip for a body, digging up random places suggested to them by wags. Some of these places - JC's mother's kitchen for example - effectively concede that JC was in fact in Sutton Coldfield at the time. At the end of all this, if they had any better case than the News of the World did 33 years ago, we'd know by now.

So I don't really buy that the police have anything we don't know about that they can't share. It looks likelier that they've got nothing.
I think it is important to maintain objectivity and understand the task faced by the police....they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. I find the best way to do that is to reflect how we would have gone about managing the very early stages of such an investigation:

The only information is that a young, attractive, white, middle class, estate agent has gone out to conduct a viewing on her own with a 'Mr Kipper', and not returned. Her car has gone from where it was parked but is not or near the address she noted in the diary. Friends, family and local hospitals have been spoken to with no trace. There is no sign that she has been home and she has not kept her 18:00 appointment. Time is of the essence as this is totally out of character. SJL may be at risk of harm by persons unknown. You have to go public but how much do you say, too little and you'll be swamped with responses and that it will be impossible to process at the required speed. Too much and you will get fewer responses but you know there will be a proportion of detailed statements from those who have convinced themselves they saw something they didn't, promoting lines of enquiry based on nothing ....how do you tell? The clock is still ticking and the longer it ticks the less chance you have of finding JSL alive.....quick do something! You have a limit on resources for house-to-house enquiries, taking statements, investigating SJL's background and ruling out people she knows who could have motive to harm her....quick, effective, informed, justifiable, decisions are required. You have the press, your bosses, and SJL's family and friends leaning on you.....they want action and information fast.

OK so mistakes were made and as with the Yorkshire Ripper Enquiry, card indexing systems for cross-referencing all the information coming into a high profile investigation, in a world with more television to reach the masses, were totally unsuited to managing such an investigation. SJL is still so strong in our psyche and we all have 'what if's', particularly as DL and PL were denied the opportunity to lay their Suzy to rest. This is made all the more raw as JC is now reportedly at the end of his life and many believe he knows, me included....although his personality means he would be highly unlikely to give up his secrets. Everyone now wants the same thing....to find Suzy and bring her home. I was working at NSY at the time and my journey to work took me through Fulham. So like those of you who have a connection to the area or the estate agency business we often feel more connected to these events.

The Met investigation team went to Bristol, as you say. They were given full access to the Avon and Somerset investigation into the SB's abduction. No conclusive link was found connecting JC with SJL's disappearance, I acknowledge that. However, nor did the assessment of the intelligence/evidence rule JC out of SJL's disappearance. It is important to understand that if crimes in separate areas of forces or between forces can be linked it provides a situation in which collective resources can be managed more effectively and it can often provide additional weight to the evidence. To link investigations without conclusive evidence could undermine the whole investigation. This is not the same as having no evidence against JC for the SJL's disappearance, which is what you incorrectly allude to.

The dead end was reached because in spite of all the media publicity, the police could not confirm SJL's movements or identify the male who was seen with a person we believe to be SJL, at the material times. From my understanding the key statements at the time were uncorroborated and some were contradicted by other independent witnesses, yet the sightings they conveyed were unable to establish a reliable timeline of SJL's and the movement of possible vehicles. Eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable and open to misbelief, suggestion (conscious and otherwise). Yes other witnesses came forwards years later with valuable information, but why years later? I'll never understand that!

Interviewing witness and statement taking is a skill and maybe this was viewed as more of a laborious task in 1986. Witness statements need to comply with R v Turnbull and the ADVOKATE mnemonic, relating to identification evidence. An officer understanding the principles of cognitive memory and being patient will draw out out all that a witness can genuinely recall in their own words.....no suggestion or letting slip any details in the police domain or from what other witnesses have suggested.

The review by Ch Supt Jim Dickie from 2000 took place as a result of the seriousness of the case, the passage of time and the high profile nature. The original evidence was looked at with fresh pairs of eyes, modern detective training (then) and updated investigation procedures and tools. Many of the existing investigation team will have retired by 2000, particularly the senior investigators. The review included all the index card data being uploaded to the HOLMES 2 investigative database, a significant task. That the original HOLMES wasn't used in 1986, although in its infancy, is likely another key error. Although DL and PL no doubt wanted a continued/reopened investigation and said so, that would not have influenced the police decision. It was commenced because it was operationally appropriate.

The McPherson Report was concerned with the discriminatory response/investigation by the Met Police Service to crimes when the victims, families, friends and witnesses are from ethnic minorities and was a consequence of the the investigation arising from the racist murder of Stephen Lawrence. I consider your point to be moot in this situation.

What is more likely is that DL's pro-active approach and dynamic personality rubbed some of the police up the wrong way.....their problem, not hers. She would do anything to find her daughter and rightly so. Any half decent parent would. Some coppers lose the human touch and the empathy needed to police effectively, when they have been around crime and criminals for too long and start to get an 'us and them' psyche.....they don't like having their cages rattled by outsiders, particularly those who are eloquent, composed, intelligent and knowledgeable....as DL was in every way.

No reviews start from scratch. A review looks at the original investigation, identifies evidential gaps that need to be addressed and corrects any errors, where possible, with a view to progressing the investigation towards arrest, charge and conviction. Of course in this case finding SJL is overarching, both for the family and friends but also to progress the investigation.

Jim Dickey approached the review with an entirely open mind. All the possible identified suspects were eliminated during the original enquiry, except 'Mr Kipper' or a unknown person with which it is believed that SJL arranged to meet. The process of elimination should have been reviewed as part of the review. So known partners, ex-partners, friends, colleagues, acquaintances, admirers, landlords, temporary landlords, known persons of concern at the time will all have been reviewed in respect of both the original and any new evidence and either featured as being worthy of further investigation or eliminated.

The only identified suspect, based on a wealth of circumstantial evidence that could not be ruled out was JC. In fact new circumstantial evidence was obtained which further supported JC as a subject of significant interest. The issue is that without being able to place JC with SJL or in the immediate vicinity at the material times and without evidence directly linking him to SJL or her car then the circumstantial evidence is just not enough for the CPS to authorise a charge. If anyone else had popped up who had an MO which fitted, was a serious violent offender towards women and was known to have frequented the area recently, then they would have been subject to investigation also. No such person came across the police radar that couldn't be eliminated. The views of JD and other investigators involved in the 2000 review can be seen at the below link (watch from 2:57).

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What has to be said is that whenever JC was in an area, terrible things happened, things of a gravity that normally happen very infrequently.....if he or someone matching his description is known to be in that area and someone with his MO of trying to charm women from a certain demographic (SJL's demographic) with champagne, flowers etc, whilst frequenting wine bars in the Hammersmith/Fulham area allegedly including the PoW PH, approaching houses for sale speculatively and departing quickly when the husband shows himself, and with access to a car then he is quite rightly the key suspect, if there is nothing to eliminate him and no one else is on the radar.

I don't for one moment think that the statement by the police about JC being the only suspect and their conviction that he was responsible for SJL's abduction, likely rape and murder would prejudice any subsequent trial. The evidence the police require will most likely require SJL's body to be found and excellent forensic evidence to be obtained from it and the scene. This is not impossible after so many years. JC will always have claimed that he couldn't possibly get a fair trial anyway, after all the publicity and knowledge of his previous offending behaviour. The strict instructions to any jury from the judge to only try the defendant on the evidence in court would counter this. It's highly likely another moot point though as JC is likely to depart this mortal coil soon and may he burn in hell for all eternity for all the lives he has destroyed with his pure evil.

You make many unevidenced claims, are you repeating DV chapter and verse or on commission? Irrespective of DV's investigative credentials he is not privy to all the evidence/intelligence obtained by the police, of which only a small part is in the public domain. DV is like a dog with a bone, quite possibly with a personal agenda other than wanting to find Suzy. He knows how it works and to be honest I'm very surprised that he doesn't realise that he is not working with anywhere near the complete picture. He also make sweeping statements in dismissing what the police have said, but doesn't counter with a factual argument. Hell, we can all do that, I'm even guilty of it myself and it's very lazy if not a little crass.

Think of all the things the state can do to gather intelligence, providing it is necessary, proportionate and can't be achieved less intrusively. Do you think these feature in the police investigation? Why do you think the police are so convinced of JC's involvement? Maybe consider the impact of PII applications by defence counsel and how any Crown Court judge would most likely refuse on the grounds of preventing a fair trial. The Crown would walk away from the case as they would have to reveal something they do not wish to and which could impact a whole range of other investigations and even the national security.

Why do you allege that the Lamplugh's provided JC as the lead? Not so! After the rape in Reading in October 1986, for which JC was ultimately convicted, Thames Valley Police put forward JC's name to the SJL investigation team. So JC was now known to the SJL investigation, albeit not profiled sufficiently then. After JC was arrested for SB's abduction he became of far greater interest and his profile was developed. I have already explained why the two investigations were not linked.

The police have a key suspect in JC. In JC they did all they could to disprove that he could be involved. They couldn't but their investigation strengthened his suspect status. Certainly in 2000 the Major Investigation Teams followed the evidence and spent much time trying to disprove a suspects involvement. The role of the police is to obtain all evidence that either proves or disproves a suspects involvement in an alleged offence! I can guarantee you that the gold standard teams, who investigate serious crimes do this to the letter. Investigations costing into seven figures can be lost at Court otherwise.

I'm done with this post. My departing request is consider that the police have a great deal more trump cards than anyone else can see. In the UK they sure aren't going to declare them readily and then only sparingly. The original investigation was compromised because of incompetency and no doubt evidence was lost. Lessons were learnt in the intervening years, people were sent out to pasture, police investigation skills and technology improved significantly and new, keen, open-minded, experienced detectives moved in. We should trust in their professionalism, judgement, and integrity certainly in Major Crime Investigation....they are the cream of the crop but they play their cards very close.
 
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  • #1,376
I think at this point I should apologise to @TimFisher1965 for being initially dismissive of his additional research - unfortunately “I know a thing, but I can’t tell anyone” is a bit of a recurring meme on WS threads and cynically I interpreted his earlier comments in this way. Coming back after as few days I see that I was wrong in this case and that Tim has been very forthcoming about what he has learned. Sorry, Tim.

Also, having now (finally) read the DV book I can very much understand his view that SJL’s disappearance may have related to events in the office earlier that morning.

Over all, my impression of the DV book is that while he does make a strong case for a ‘fake viewing,’ I am not entirely convinced by the PoW connection. DV’s argument for this seems to hang largely on the pub being closed after 12.45pm, whereas the evidence of the stocktaker and ZH suggest that the stocktaking was completed and signed off before 12pm, in order to enable the pub to open for lunchtime as normal.
If there is no connection to PoW, where would she go? Home?
 
  • #1,377
If there is no connection to PoW, where would she go? Home?
JC said speaking on the Channel 4 tv docu 'The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh' she said asked him to get her the keys to Shorrolds she was going to do a quick viewing and then lunch.
 
  • #1,378
JC said speaking on the Channel 4 tv docu 'The Vanishing of Suzy Lamplugh' she said asked him to get her the keys to Shorrolds she was going to do a quick viewing and then lunch.
Yes these documentaries are so accurate it must be true lol
 
  • #1,379
I think I would like more clarity on who went where just before and after SJL left the office.

I had suspicions that some viewings were being covered that day MS said that the office junior and secretary did not do face to face viewing we now know thats not the case that particular day. By my reckoning there may have only been 2 people in the office for some length of time that day.

I still think there is more we arent being told about the movements of people in the office that day. Until we get to the bottom of this things will still not make sense.
MOO
 
  • #1,380
Yes these documentaries are so accurate it must be true lol
This is very confusing he was actually speaking on the programme
Are you suggesting JC was not telling the truth?
 
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