UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #5

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  • #941
i think SL remains are in a 5 mile radius of fulham.
That’s a tricky one, it all depends on who is the guilty party.
There’s no shortage of suspects, JC preferred water deposition, not taking too much trouble to hide his victims. Steve Wright also didn’t bother to conceal victims either.
Also mentioned as possible perpetrators was the Railway Killers, while they made some efforts to conceal their victims, it wasn’t in the same league as Christopher Halliwell for example.
If it had anything to do with Kippers (herring) then concealed in a Fulham harder or basement.
Just a few thoughts.
 
  • #942
The real case against Cannan is probably the information against him given by the snitch Taggart. This is inconclusive because it was given years after the fact and has not led to actual evidence of any kind. That would have to have been gathered at the time.

The ostensible case for it being Cannan is largely the made-up sightings the public has been cajoled into coming up with over the last 25-odd years. This is all new information the police didn't have in 1986, so it can be argued that it's not their fault they never caught anyone, because they weren't told key stuff at the time, see?

Between no one wondering if any criminals recently released from HMP Scrubs, Wandsworth or Brixton might have anything to do with this disappearance, and the family editing the evidence to hide the fact that SJL lived like a normal 1980s 20-something rather than a virginal 1940s Methodist teetotaller, the police were left with trying to identify and place everyone last man she knew. Unless the killer was in her diary they were never going to find him.

It's not actually possible to rule Cannan out. There's nothing that says this was definitely him, but neither is there anything that says this definitely wasn't. So this leaves us with the likelihood that she went off with someone she already knew, was taken inside a house or other building to which this person has access, and was there killed out of sight. Given the FPR car sighting at 2.45 (I believe BW on this), and that the killer had control over her car in order to get rid of it by 4pm (I don't buy the WJ 12.45 sighting), this says to me she was taken somewhere between those hours and killed. This happened either then or not long after the killer returned from dumping the car.

Wherever it happened, she had to get there, be lured inside, be imprisoned or killed, and the perpetrator then had to to get her car back to 123 Stevenage. He then had to return to wherever she had been left. While she could have driven some distance in the time, logically wherever she was taken had to be reasonably close to 123 Stevenage so the killer could drive there in her car then walk, bus or cab it away inconspicuously.

So yes, within a small radius of Fulham; in fact, personally I'd narrow it down from five miles and say within 1.5 miles of 123 Stevenage. Going clockwise from bottom left, this is broadly the area from Barnes Bridge up to Chiswick and across to Hammersmith, thence via Earl's Court to Wandsworth Bridge and back across to Barnes Bridge. It takes in what is now the London Wetland Centre, which superficially looks like a place you could dump a body. But this would be tricky in daylight, the abductor would have been juggling cars if he was getting rid of SJL's car, and it's a long way on foot. Within my 1.5 miles, I'd guess the northern part and north of the river would be likeliest. The southern part is a bit more genteel and contained more intact houses; the northern bit, Hammersmith (towards where she was last seen driving) and Earl's Court, are more flats - and houses subdivided into them - with a more transient population.

Again, this fits Cannan's accomplice's address, but it fits many others too.
 
  • #943
I can see the killer taking SJL to a property within 1.5 miles of Stevenage Road, but I'm not sure about Suzy's body being dumped nearby and remaining undiscovered for so long. Why wouldn't the killer take the body to an isolated spot well away from London?
 
  • #944
The real case against Cannan is probably the information against him given by the snitch Taggart. This is inconclusive because it was given years after the fact and has not led to actual evidence of any kind. That would have to have been gathered at the time.

The ostensible case for it being Cannan is largely the made-up sightings the public has been cajoled into coming up with over the last 25-odd years. This is all new information the police didn't have in 1986, so it can be argued that it's not their fault they never caught anyone, because they weren't told key stuff at the time, see?

Between no one wondering if any criminals recently released from HMP Scrubs, Wandsworth or Brixton might have anything to do with this disappearance, and the family editing the evidence to hide the fact that SJL lived like a normal 1980s 20-something rather than a virginal 1940s Methodist teetotaller, the police were left with trying to identify and place everyone last man she knew. Unless the killer was in her diary they were never going to find him.

It's not actually possible to rule Cannan out. There's nothing that says this was definitely him, but neither is there anything that says this definitely wasn't. So this leaves us with the likelihood that she went off with someone she already knew, was taken inside a house or other building to which this person has access, and was there killed out of sight. Given the FPR car sighting at 2.45 (I believe BW on this), and that the killer had control over her car in order to get rid of it by 4pm (I don't buy the WJ 12.45 sighting), this says to me she was taken somewhere between those hours and killed. This happened either then or not long after the killer returned from dumping the car.

Wherever it happened, she had to get there, be lured inside, be imprisoned or killed, and the perpetrator then had to to get her car back to 123 Stevenage. He then had to return to wherever she had been left. While she could have driven some distance in the time, logically wherever she was taken had to be reasonably close to 123 Stevenage so the killer could drive there in her car then walk, bus or cab it away inconspicuously.

So yes, within a small radius of Fulham; in fact, personally I'd narrow it down from five miles and say within 1.5 miles of 123 Stevenage. Going clockwise from bottom left, this is broadly the area from Barnes Bridge up to Chiswick and across to Hammersmith, thence via Earl's Court to Wandsworth Bridge and back across to Barnes Bridge. It takes in what is now the London Wetland Centre, which superficially looks like a place you could dump a body. But this would be tricky in daylight, the abductor would have been juggling cars if he was getting rid of SJL's car, and it's a long way on foot. Within my 1.5 miles, I'd guess the northern part and north of the river would be likeliest. The southern part is a bit more genteel and contained more intact houses; the northern bit, Hammersmith (towards where she was last seen driving) and Earl's Court, are more flats - and houses subdivided into them - with a more transient population.

Again, this fits Cannan's accomplice's address, but it fits many others too.
The London Wetland Centre was top of my list when I first started looking at this case.
Back in the 80’s it was nothing like it is today, old photos show (If I recall correctly) 4 balancing lakes. I’d have thought it would have been fenced off at the time.
However, I can’t see this being a problem to a determined criminal.
Against this deposition site is the later redevelopment into the wetland centre, you’d have thought SJL would have turned up during this work.
 
  • #945
The London Wetland Centre was top of my list when I first started looking at this case.
Back in the 80’s it was nothing like it is today, old photos show (If I recall correctly) 4 balancing lakes. I’d have thought it would have been fenced off at the time.
However, I can’t see this being a problem to a determined criminal.
Against this deposition site is the later redevelopment into the wetland centre, you’d have thought SJL would have turned up during this work.
Depends once supposes on what work was carried out, large excavators with large buckets and no one looking for a body ,a decomposed one at that it may be easy to miss ,if it was a deposition site.imo.
 
  • #946
Depends once supposes on what work was carried out, large excavators with large buckets and no one looking for a body ,a decomposed one at that it may be easy to miss ,if it was a deposition site.imo.
Yes agree, the site before and after show drastic changes. If this was a deposition site there’s no hope now.
Even with a perpetrator coming clean and offering to reveal the location, he’d have great difficulty finding it.
 
  • #947
I read the '88 AS book.. a lot of good information and detail in there (but also I'm taking into account sources etc. of course). Couldn't help feeling disappointed with the whole case.. book is good.. but now I'm beginning to understand some of the frustrations. DL wanted to keep the case in the media at almost any cost, to keep it alive, trampling over the subsequent.. important information was corrupted. And we've heard from many sources about how this case is about timings.. unfortunately it seems that timings went out the window with DLs objectives - there were two sides to that coin, and one side kind of cancelled the other.. balance between the two was thrown out and was paramount in her quest (e.g. much later on she lets the cops know about the supposed conversation SL had with PL on the Sunday evening.. a business idea she was about to go ahead with - pronto - and that had funding interest already assured etc - who knows if that convo was several months prior in fact.. and that is obviously important if it was just about to happen imo).

I still have a lot of questions, many have had good light shed upon them with the information in the AS book, some are the same as before.. maybe I find answers in the later DV book which I will get a kindle version of now

My feeling is that this case will never be solved now without her body, which is unlikely to be found after so many years in many of the likelier scenarios. I have some outrageous theories too, well.. outrageous at first sight but would tie a lot of loose ends up and explain a lot of things.. onto the DV book I guess - as I have an idea from these threads about which parts would be erroneous witness statements for his central thesis - and my outrageous theory would be a superset of evidence for that too.

Haven't given up yet.. starting a spreadsheet before I think about how to structure the various scenarios.

My opinion only. MOO.
 
  • #948
i think SL remains are in a 5 mile radius of fulham
If her remains were dumped in a country ditch 100miles away, there's also a very good chance that they would never be found.. only saying that because of the MOs of various serial perps who were also in the area at the time (not just JC to be clear!)
 
  • #949
dbm
 
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  • #950
I don't want to give too many of my ideas away before I read everything.. but there is one main scenario (or could be several other minor too) where there is a good reason to hide her body and not including forensic evidence worries.. and indeed in the case of an unfortunate accident. I am most likely wrong in any case.. (as I have been in my thoughts about the Barry Sherman, and the Idaho 4 cases from early on)
 
  • #951
I can see the killer taking SJL to a property within 1.5 miles of Stevenage Road, but I'm not sure about Suzy's body being dumped nearby and remaining undiscovered for so long. Why wouldn't the killer take the body to an isolated spot well away from London?
Indeed he might but this would entail some tricky logistics. If she was killed on Monday he has to get her away from wherever that happened pretty much immediately, without anyone knowing what he has done there, plus he has to get rid of that Fiesta. It's quite a lot to get through, which is why I wonder if she is under a house somewhere that had a flat or garage on the ground floor.
 
  • #952
It's a funny thing.. I was looking at google maps for Sun Rd, and I was hearing about North End Rd in earlier threads.. last time I was in London (coronavirus kyboshed my fairly regular visits and ultimately put an end to them.. although I did have a cancelled meeting this summer) was in November 2019.. and I met a couple of friends one of the evenings and we went to Vince Power's new gaff, Nell's (& the gentleman himself gave us pints on the house) in West Kensington to see a band play.. and it was on North End Rd, not far from Sun Rd! Small world really!
 
  • #953
Indeed he might but this would entail some tricky logistics. If she was killed on Monday he has to get her away from wherever that happened pretty much immediately, without anyone knowing what he has done there, plus he has to get rid of that Fiesta. It's quite a lot to get through, which is why I wonder if she is under a house somewhere that had a flat or garage on the ground floor.
If it is JC, then why does he regress with Shirley Banks and completely forget how to dispose of the vehicle related evidence?
So careful in someone else's house/garage, yet so careless in his own?
 
  • #954
It's a funny thing.. I was looking at google maps for Sun Rd, and I was hearing about North End Rd in earlier threads.. last time I was in London (coronavirus kyboshed my fairly regular visits and ultimately put an end to them.. although I did have a cancelled meeting this summer) was in November 2019.. and I met a couple of friends one of the evenings and we went to Vince Power's new gaff, Nell's (& the gentleman himself gave us pints on the house) in West Kensington to see a band play.. and it was on North End Rd, not far from Sun Rd! Small world really!
That fits with the “James Galway Man” and his cab journey, is this another coincidence?
 
  • #955
One thing that I've been wondering about.. was the Nuffield Health 'fitness centre/gym' on Stevenage Road, as we see it now, perhaps also a well-woman centre/clinic back in the 80s?

Was AL informed during Friday dinner that something had happened/been determined since he was away and that a unilateral decision, not yet enacted, had already been made unequivocally by herself?

Did a heated discussion develop over the w/e with AL determining on Sunday 10.15pm that SL could not be swayed as she was too single-minded, and that perhaps he should also have at least some say?

Did AL then contact DL on Monday morning out of desperation, and did SL still have one load of laundry to collect in E. Sheen? Perhaps AL thinks that DL could persuade.. morally.. an alternative decision? Then perhaps from a moral/religious point of view, already mind made-up SL was about to commit a mortal sin.. an attempt at dissuasion resulted in a furious row, incandescent rage and an unfortunate heavy frying pan accident to the head? Did DL call the PoW on Monday afternoon and ask if she had been there and if not to keep her there - as it seemed that she called the neighbour?

Not consistent points.. just thinking aloud.. maybe two counts of manslaughter as opposed to one of murder?

IMO & MOO
 
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  • #956
I was looking at some old links re this today and came across this Independent story from 2000. It has been posted here before I am sure.

The hunt for the killer of Suzy Lamplugh has been re-opened after a new witness came forward claiming to have seen the estate agent alive shortly after her abduction 14 years ago, police said yesterday.

Detectives also disclosed for the first time that Ms Lamplugh may have been seized by more than one person.

The new witness is believed to have reported seeing Ms Lamplugh, 25, being driven in her Ford Fiesta car in Fulham, West London, at lunchtime on 28 July 1986 ...

It had previously been assumed that her Ford Fiesta had been driven directly to Stevenage Road and abandoned 80 minutes later. But the new witness evidence suggests the vehicle, registration B396 GAN, may gone by a different route, possibly dropping off the estate agent at an address in West London on the way..."The witness at the time was very focused geographically in terms of the route that Suzy may have taken..."


This is more or less the scenario we've been discussing recently, whereby she is taken somewhere in her own car which is then dumped and two criminals are required.

What is not clear is whether this new witness referred to was Taggart or someone else. Taggart couldn't easily give the police anything of evidential value on Cannan without incriminating himself as having abetted SJL's murder. He certainly couldn't plausibly claim to have actually seen her. I also wonder whether this sighting squares with the location and time of the BW account.

The bit about the car "driven directly to Stevenage Road and abandoned 80 minutes later" is also a bit odd. It's the first time I've heard of any assumption that the car was dumped outside 123SR 80 minutes after she left the office, i.e. at 2pm. The police seem elsewhere to have bought WJ's statement that it was there by 1pm.

I often think with this case that if you had an award for "Least Helpful Witness", all of them would have to share it.

Also, it has been pointed out before that James Galway Man - who hailed a cab near 123SR and mentioned "a right ruck" around the corner - was then driven to North End Road. This road runs between Star Road and Shorrolds, in the sense that they are both turnings off it around 10 minutes' walk apart. Do we know what Taggart looked like? Did he looked like JGM? Was the cabbie's fare Taggart going back to his flat having just got rid of SJL's Fiesta?
 
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  • #957
I was looking at some old links re this today and came across this Independent story from 2000. It has been posted here before I am sure.

The hunt for the killer of Suzy Lamplugh has been re-opened after a new witness came forward claiming to have seen the estate agent alive shortly after her abduction 14 years ago, police said yesterday.

Detectives also disclosed for the first time that Ms Lamplugh may have been seized by more than one person.

The new witness is believed to have reported seeing Ms Lamplugh, 25, being driven in her Ford Fiesta car in Fulham, West London, at lunchtime on 28 July 1986 ...

It had previously been assumed that her Ford Fiesta had been driven directly to Stevenage Road and abandoned 80 minutes later. But the new witness evidence suggests the vehicle, registration B396 GAN, may gone by a different route, possibly dropping off the estate agent at an address in West London on the way..."The witness at the time was very focused geographically in terms of the route that Suzy may have taken..."


This is more or less the scenario we've been discussing recently, whereby she is taken somewhere in her own car which is then dumped and two criminals are required.

What is not clear is whether this new witness referred to was Taggart or someone else. Taggart couldn't easily give the police anything of evidential value on Cannan without incriminating himself as having abetted SJL's murder. He certainly couldn't plausibly claim to have actually seen her. I also wonder whether this sighting squares with the location and time of the BW account.

The bit about the car "driven directly to Stevenage Road and abandoned 80 minutes later" is also a bit odd. It's the first time I've heard of any assumption that the car was dumped outside 123SR 80 minutes after she left the office, i.e. at 2pm. The police seem elsewhere to have bought WJ's statement that it was there by 1pm.

I often think with this case that if you had an award for "Least Helpful Witness", all of them would have to share it.

Also, it has been pointed out before that James Galway Man - who hailed a cab near 123SR and mentioned "a right ruck" around the corner - was then driven to North End Road. This road runs between Star Road and Shorrolds, in the sense that they are both turnings off it around 10 minutes' walk apart. Do we know what Taggart looked like? Did he looked like JGM? Was the cabbie's fare Taggart going back to his flat having just got rid of SJL's Fiesta?
I mentioned earlier that I’ve never come across any photos of Taggert or the PoW temp landlord from 86.
The JGM definitely needs to be eliminated as his journey fits with Taggert.
 
  • #958
You have brought that up. Re KH the only way would be a personal visit but as a prolific criminal JT may well have had his mugshot in the paper at some point. Maybe LSW can weigh in on this...
 
  • #959
You have brought that up. Re KH the only way would be a personal visit but as a prolific criminal JT may well have had his mugshot in the paper at some point. Maybe LSW can weigh in on this...
Who is KH please?
 
  • #960
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