UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #7

[Ljh21]

A

That would suggest maybe JC picked her out, there's no evidence that we know of the JC frequented any social gatherings where SJL would be.

And shows part of his mo

 

[tes1984]

yes, that is what i was thinking. JC picked SB out.

It looks like he was definitely aware of Shirley. Do you think is was pure coincidence that he encountered her the day she was kidnapped?

 

[Kasparthecat1]

SB husband richard did remember seeing JC in there local. i think it was the avon gorge hotel.

Yes - JC drank at the Avon Gorge Hotel. The Banks' lived on Clifton High Street and JC lived just over the bridge in Leigh Woods. The Banks' and JC probably used the same facilities in Clifton. Its quite conceivable that RB had seen and remembered JC.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Like others upthread. I also wondered whether JC had seen SB and picked her out as a target, given that they lived in the same neighbourhood.

 

[tes1984]

Completely agree, but did he abduct Shirley after her shopping trip, or did she recognise him and give him a lift to Leigh Woods, or was it a pre-arranged encounter?

 

[Konstantin]

Completely agree, but did he abduct Shirley after her shopping trip, or did she recognise him and give him a lift to Leigh Woods, or was it a pre-arranged encounter?

If he abducted her after her shopping trip, so in the car park probably, then the glaring question is how he managed to get her into his flat without anyone noticing.

Sure, some people do freeze with terror but how could Cannan predict what SB would do? If someone had seen them together, he was done for anyway even if he "only" planned to rape her. Yet she was in his flat and touched a private document of his enough to leave latent prints. One assumes Cannan cleaned the rest up but didn't realize SB had touched the document or didn't think it would be printed.

I think it is very possible your lift idea is what happened. Possibly he invited her in for something, and he got lucky that no one saw her going into his flat. Cannan was very charming after all...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

For the people who believe JC is responsible for the abduction and murder of SJL,
what was missed by LE at the time? Or what were key things LE failed to do? Could these comprise enough to warrant a fresh review of this crime?

For legally informed people, now that JC is deceased, can LE / The Crown now release any data or information they hold against JC that does suggest he was the perpetrator? It seems LE didn't have enough evidence to persuade the CPS to prosecute JC but what did they have? Do we the public get to know now?

 

[sportstergirl]

For many years I believed JC to be responsible but now I'm thinking he was a handy bogeyman to hang this unsolved murder on & call it done. They'll probably seal any records til 2086 just to make sure no one starts digging too deep

 

[RichardKimble]

For the people who believe JC is responsible for the abduction and murder of SJL,
what was missed by LE at the time? Or what were key things LE failed to do? Could these comprise enough to warrant a fresh review of this crime?

For legally informed people, now that JC is deceased, can LE / The Crown now release any data or information they hold against JC that does suggest he was the perpetrator? It seems LE didn't have enough evidence to persuade the CPS to prosecute JC but what did they have? Do we the public get to know now?

I don't think they'll release anything, if a new suspect is indentified then any evidence disclosed could compromise a new investigation.It's said they were going to charge Black with G Tates murder but he died before they did, nothing was released in relation to the charges.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

If he abducted her after her shopping trip, so in the car park probably, then the glaring question is how he managed to get her into his flat without anyone noticing.

Sure, some people do freeze with terror but how could Cannan predict what SB would do? If someone had seen them together, he was done for anyway even if he "only" planned to rape her. Yet she was in his flat and touched a private document of his enough to leave latent prints. One assumes Cannan cleaned the rest up but didn't realize SB had touched the document or didn't think it would be printed.

I think it is very possible your lift idea is what happened. Possibly he invited her in for something, and he got lucky that no one saw her going into his flat. Cannan was very charming after all...

I've always assumed that SB was carjacked in Debenhams' car park and made to drive to Leigh Woods at (fake) gunpoint. Now I'm wondering if this is not the case; this was in a busy, densely populated area - if JC's intention was to assault SB, why didn't he simply make her drive to somewhere quiet, an industrial estate perhaps or the countryside just beyond Leigh Woods? It doesn't make sense to me that he would take her to his own home. That's risky, even by JC's impulsive standards. No-one in the block seems to have heard anything that night but we know SB was still alive next morning because she called in sick to her workplace.

 

[Konstantin]

I've always assumed that SB was carjacked in Debenhams' car park and made to drive to Leigh Woods at (fake) gunpoint. Now I'm wondering if this is not the case; this was in a busy, densely populated area - if JC's intention was to assault SB, why didn't he simply make her drive to somewhere quiet, an industrial estate perhaps or the countryside just beyond Leigh Woods? It doesn't make sense to me that he would take her to his own home. That's risky, even by JC's impulsive standards. No-one in the block seems to have heard anything that night but we know SB was still alive next morning because she called in sick to her workplace.

Yes, I had assumed the same as you but then rethought things based on what others pointed out.

In the carjacking rape Cannan committed, he did make his victim drive somewhere secluded. The car with the victim in it had been parked somewhere quiet when he carjacked her.

SB was very different, possibly because he already knew her, perhaps only as a nodding acquaintance. Carjacking someone in a busy car park would be very risky, raping SB then letting her go would be risky if she knew him and definitely if he had carjacked her and drove her to where he lived - she could literally bring police to his address.

And where did she call in sick from the next morning? Taking a victim to a phone box to do that would have been very risky in broad daylight especially. I'm guessing she called from Cannan's flat (no call tracing back then?). She didn't sound stressed or under duress on the phone.

 

[tes1984]

I've always presumed that Shirley went voluntarily to JC's flat, or was forced there.

 

[tes1984]

For many years I believed JC to be responsible but now I'm thinking he was a handy bogeyman to hang this unsolved murder on & call it done. They'll probably seal any records til 2086 just to make sure no one starts digging too deep

I think JC was almost certainly responsible for Suzy's murder, although I think the initial investigation was very poor indeed.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Yes, I had assumed the same as you but then rethought things based on what others pointed out.

In the carjacking rape Cannan committed, he did make his victim drive somewhere secluded. The car with the victim in it had been parked somewhere quiet when he carjacked her.

SB was very different, possibly because he already knew her, perhaps only as a nodding acquaintance. Carjacking someone in a busy car park would be very risky, raping SB then letting her go would be risky if she knew him and definitely if he had carjacked her and drove her to where he lived - she could literally bring police to his address.

And where did she call in sick from the next morning? Taking a victim to a phone box to do that would have been very risky in broad daylight especially. I'm guessing she called from Cannan's flat (no call tracing back then?). She didn't sound stressed or under duress on the phone.

Yes, I think SB called from JCs flat. There's a story (I don't think backed up by evidence) that she called a taxi from there too (the taxi turning up and being sent away by JC)). I don't think back in those days that it was possible to trace calls retrospectively.

Yes I think it was "DC" who was made to drive to Theale Industrial Estate and attacked there. The attempt on JH which took place in Bristol the night before SB was attacked seems to be completely random too.

 

[Kasparthecat1]

Sorry meant to say "DT". Not her real initials as I think she chose to remain anonymous.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I've always assumed that SB was carjacked in Debenhams' car park and made to drive to Leigh Woods at (fake) gunpoint. Now I'm wondering if this is not the case; this was in a busy, densely populated area - if JC's intention was to assault SB, why didn't he simply make her drive to somewhere quiet, an industrial estate perhaps or the countryside just beyond Leigh Woods? It doesn't make sense to me that he would take her to his own home. That's risky, even by JC's impulsive standards. No-one in the block seems to have heard anything that night but we know SB was still alive next morning because she called in sick to her workplace.

One would assume he took her back to his place, at a higher risk, because he had intentions / plans that he wanted to carry out in the 'comfort' (for want of a better word) and security of his own home and maybe using items he had ready. Also that he wanted to keep her alive for a long time.

If JC did abduct SJL perhaps he took her somewhere and kept her there, popping out to dump the car and then returning. The amount of thinking time such a scenario would provide a murderer could explain why she's never been found.

 

[WestLondoner]

A possibility with SB is that he gave her the glad eye and she went willingly. ISTR she had married her husband after going out with him inconclusively for years, forcing the issue as it were, and it then started going pear shaped almost immediately. In this scenario she has perhaps mentally checked out of the marriage and then up rocks JC.

 

[Cherwell]

A possibility with SB is that he gave her the glad eye and she went willingly. ISTR she had married her husband after going out with him inconclusively for years, forcing the issue as it were, and it then started going pear shaped almost immediately. In this scenario she has perhaps mentally checked out of the marriage and then up rocks JC.

I've always thought that this is most likely. It accounts for the oddities such as the change of clothes.

 

[Konstantin]

I've always thought that this is most likely. It accounts for the oddities such as the change of clothes.

There were difficulties in her marriage. In the court case, the defence alleged that there had been a row and that the reason SB's husband didn't call the police straight away was because he was away (I don't recall the full details, perhaps someone else does), but he denied all this.

The change of clothes is odd but he could have forced her to change.

Cannan was clearly guilty anyway and obviously it doesn't reflect on SB in any way if she did go with him voluntarily. If she did it is another indicator that Cannan was very charming indeed. Perhaps SB tried to dump him mid liaison or stop a romantic encounter happening, and he snapped. Or maybe he did plan to abduct her for a longer time.

With SJL, abducting her in the middle of the day like that would not be a good plan because she was expected back at the office. But perhaps Cannan, if it was him, thought that estate agents just roamed around showing properties all day without having to report back.

 

[tes1984]

What does everyone think about the idea that JC was also the House For Sale rapist from the Birmingham area?

There's very little information out there about such a prolific uncaught serial rapist, with twenty or so victims.