GUILTY UT - Michele MacNeill, 50, found dead in bathtub, Pleasant Grove, 11 April 2007 - #2

[Bravo]

Do we know what kind of "interest board" they met on?

It was not stated in Court. I'm sure it was Horticulture :floorlaugh::banghead:

 

[Bravo]

Agree the timeline is great, but it does show he had very little time, if he did kill Michele. If Michele hadn't spoken to Alexis that morning, I'd swear she died much much earlier and maybe even late the night before.

For me the timeline speaks volumes. I think he had a great window of time. Fed Michele the drugs. Left the house. Attended the work fair. Insisted on that pic. Came home. Michele was so drugged it was a pretty soft kill. Put her in the tub and just push her head down. I believe this as many attested to the fact there was no wrinkling of the skin. I don't think she was in the tub that long. Alive. And/or deceased.

 

[MissJ]

To clarify on the pain meds: The drug name is OXYCODONE. It is an opioid based pain reliever.

"Oxycontin" = Oxycodone + Acetaminophen in a timed release form
(The name comes from "oxycodone continuous")

Available in various strengths. The strength number is the milligrams of oxycodone. So an "Oxycontin 40" has 40 mg. of oxycodone in it. Also, since one Percocet has 5 mg. of oxycodone, an "Oxy 40" is equal to 8 Percocets.

The delivery of the medication into the bloodstream is for 12 hours. This delivery system for pain medication was a breakthrough in chronic pain management because it offers a continuous level of pain relief to chronic pain patients.


Percocet = oxycodone + acetaminophen (not in a timed release form)
Percodan = oxycodone + aspirin (not in a timed release form)
Usually 5 mg. oxycodone per tablet (but also available with 7.5 mg oxycodone per tablet)

This is the same drug, but in this form the duration is usually 4-6 hours. Plus during that 4-6 hours there will be an onset of action, then a "peak" blood level, then a tapering off. Not the greatest for a chronic pain situation because the patient has "peaks and valleys" of pain relief.

Because of drug laws in the U.S. prescriptions for any of the above may not be "refilled" or "called in" to a pharmacy. A new prescription must be obtained.

--------------

HYDROCONE - A weaker opioid pain reliever. (Vicodin)

Still a controlled, scheduled drug in the U.S. but it CAN be refilled and prescription can be "called in" to a pharmacy. Many doctors and dentists prefer to prescribe this as opposed to the stronger oxycodone.
-----------------

FENTANYL - A synthetic opiate, a "designer drug". Stronger than morphine.
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HIPAA LAWS - People, including health care workers, have a lot of misconceptions about what is and isn't covered, who may or may not have access to medical records. Never designed to shield or hide medical records from law enforcement agencies or court orders.

Thank you for your very useful information. Laws have changed so much lately for controlled substances its hard to keep up.:seeya:

 

[outofstatelawyer]

Question: For those of you have watched a lot of trials, can you tell when a witness is being deceptive?
Having watched a lot of trials and deceptive witnesses, can you tell when people are being deceptive in real life?
.

Yes and yes.

I guess I have always approached life figuring someone is being deceptive unless facts tell me differently. It's served me well in the last 32 years of lawyering, that's for sure!

 

[Zuri]

Yes and yes.

I guess I have always approached life figuring someone is being deceptive unless facts tell me differently. It's served me well in the last 32 years of lawyering, that's for sure!

In medicine, we have to assume the patient is telling the truth. My detectaliar is way off as a result. There are so many deceptive people out there and I am not always quick to pick up on them.

 

[otto]

I missed all the testimony today. Do I understand correctly that Ada's testimony is out, but the diagram she drew is in via Alexis?

 

[seattlechiquita]

Don't sell your self short. Your posts reflect a very smart educated person. You will know. Follow your heart. As I said not that the Court case will. You have excellent skills.

ETA- wrong poster it was directed to as far as a court case

WORD. Zuri is pretty awesome. Most WSers are. Though of course, I am the prettiest.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I missed all the testimony today. Do I understand correctly that Ada's testimony is out, but the diagram she drew is in via Alexis?

Ada 's interview is in. State cannot direct examine. Defense can cross ONLY on what was discussed on the interview. IF defense counsel opens door to anything else, the prosecutors can the redirect. Not sure about the diagram.

 

[scorekeeper]

If they call Ada then they will show Ada's interview with the child protective services (may not be correct term). Then the defense may question her. then pros has the opportunity to re-direct.

so whatever doors the defense opens, the pros can drive thru...or so has been said here today.

 

[scorekeeper]

I am not sure I have seen any discussion on this and then again it may not be important.

I thought that Gypsy said today she was staying in an apartment or condo in Lehigh that Marty already had a contract on. Why did marty have a place there?

tia

 

[aa9511]

Zuri, there is no one way or more to know.

As a watcher, I don't know the person and their"tells". You know, when you know someone and they look at the ground rather than you, or the mumble a lot, or say Umm a lot and take too much time to answer while looking around. Whatever a tell is for each person, I cannot say if I do not know them.

I think, JMO, is what a juror should see is if the witness is changing the story via prosecution and defense questioning. That is the best anyone can do. If they are shifty in the story. And watch emotional shifts.

Go with the gut after all is said and done, and the analyzing you can take, then gut instinct nags about it all.

I really don't know. I don't think there is a "tell" just a listening and how a juror feels about it.

All MOOOOOOOOO......

bbm

Very true, but I've noticed many prosecutors do not know how to "rattle" a witness! It just amazes me! No one can do it like Juan. These other prosecutors speak verrryyyy slooowwwlllyyyy, giving the witness so much time to formulate their answers/lies....and then when the witness answers, the prosecutor lets them say whatever they want and often times don't even push them on an "iffy" answer. (of course I'm only talking about witnesses who lie).

I noticed that if you ('you' as in prosecutor) don't go hard question after question at rapid pace at a witness, then you can't tell whether they're lying or not. But when you catch them on the spot, over and over, having to think about their story, but they don't have time to really think about it 'cause the questions keep comin' at em, that's when you can tell they're lying.

Prime example is of course, the supreme liar-esse Jodi Arias. I only saw her mannerisms when she lies after Juan's cross on her, when he came at her hard question after question. Previous to that, when I saw her camera interviews and EVEN, embarrassed, to say, even during her direct, I didn't know she was lying through her teeth! I honestly didn't catch it until Juan's cross.....guess it helped that I wasn't keeping up with the case before trial, 'cause then I really got to see just how brilliant Juan really is.

The scary thing is that I believe that if it had been another prosecutor and not Juan, she would have been able to get away with it. I really do. She would have sowed some reasonable doubt in a couple of juror's minds with her lies. Because the prosecutor would have given her time to formulate her lies without getting mixed up, and she would've eaten right through him (or her).

 

[aa9511]

Yes and yes.

I guess I have always approached life figuring someone is being deceptive unless facts tell me differently. It's served me well in the last 32 years of lawyering, that's for sure!

Wait....so then does that mean that the defense lawyer usually knows whether their client is lying or not? How can they separate that "knowing" from their job? I just cannot wrap my head around how they are able to do that.

I know the defense lawyers always say, "I don't ask my client and I don't know whether they are guilty or innocent,".....but really in some cases it's just so obvious, how can they NOT know?

I'm really curious, if there is a defense lawyer on here can they please enlighten me? I would like to know how they are able to focus on defending to the best of their ability, when they know that person did it? It's like, okay if you know this person probably did it, and probably did it like.....so and so way (based on evidence).....then you're basically trying to "change" the truth so to speak, but that's gotta be hard, b/c if something happened one way, then obviously it couldn't have happened any other way. So how do they come up with that "other" way? I don't know if I'm making any sense or not....LOL!

 

[Sulamith]

I am not sure I have seen any discussion on this and then again it may not be important.

I thought that Gypsy said today she was staying in an apartment or condo in Lehigh that Marty already had a contract on. Why did marty have a place there?

tia

I know that some wealthy people have rental properties. I have no way of knowing if MM owned an apartment complex. Some men keep an apartment or townhouse for their mistresses. Whatever the case, MM provided housing for Gypsy.

 

[Norwegian]

Was watching the memorial video for Michele yesterday. At the end of it she's seen next to a boat.

I could immediately tell where it was; The Norwegian Viking Ship Museum here in Oslo, Norway.

It's not important to the case, but it was kind of cool for me to once in my life be able to contribute something in that way here on WS!!

 

[Norwegian]

It has been mentioned time and time again that MM would refuse some of Michele's family to come to the funeral. In a memorandum filed by his attorneys on the 26th of August 2013 it's written that the reason for denying them entrance was because Damian had been sexually abused by two cousins at a young age.

That document can be found here: http://cdn-static.wildabouttrial.co...iting-Certain-Guests-at-Micheles-Funeral1.pdf

__

In an article from the Utah Valley daily Herald about another memorandum of Dec 17th 2012:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...cle_df436a9a-1c29-5b94-82ec-3782105c856d.html

This is written:

The motion explains that some of the information contained on the thumb drive was that the county attorney's office believed that MacNeill's son, Damian MacNeill, was extremely dangerous and had homicidal impulses. The motion said the county attorney's office went as far as to inform Damian MacNeill's law school that they felt he was dangerous. Damian was in Pleasant Grove when his mother, Michele, died in 2007.

The motion states that because the prosecution believes Michele MacNeill was murdered that the information about Damian MacNeill would benefit the defense's case and that it was intentionally kept from the defense. Damian committed suicide in 2010.

I don't know if any of this is true, but it does show what lenghts MM is willing to go. Feeding his only and dead son to the wolves. What a "father."

No matter what happens, he has an explanation to defend his actions.

 

[Norwegian]

In the affidavit, point 26, it says that on March 26 2007, daughters Elle and Sabrina was sealed - a LDS ceremony that binds families together forever.

Was Giselle ever sealed? If she wasn't before and not even in March 2007 I think this shows that MM had plans already then to deport her back to Ukraine to be able to steal her identity. Pre-meditation all the way.

Giselle is now adopted by Michele's sister, Linda Cluff. It was during the adoption process the whole identity theft was revealed. I'm certain Giselle has changed her name to Noelle. During Rachel's testimony she referred to Noelle numerous times and I wasn't quite following. But after some social media lurking I can connect the dots. I feel so sorry for this girl and all that she've had to endure.

 

[Dmacky]

Found some links on Gypsy's parents and sister. Also her mother Vicki is on the witness list!

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/who-is-gypsy-willis-13000324

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/wifes-death-dark-secrets-utah-doctor-revealed/story?id=12982985&page=2

from article above
After Michele MacNeill's death, Willis eventually took MacNeill to Wyoming to meet her parents -- Harold and Vicky Willis.

"He said, 'I never loved Michelle, but I love Gypsy,'" said Vicky Willis. "And I said, 'but you had a family with Michelle'… He says, 'Actually, I loved her as a friend, I loved her as a sister, but I never loved her like I love Gypsy.'"

Martin even proposed to Willis in front of her family, at a restaurant in Wyoming. Willis' sister, Julie, was there.

"He gives this grand speech about how he loved her, and how he loved her from the moment he saw her," said Julie Willis. "And he knelt and proposed to her, and Gypsy cried. It was very fairy tale."

But the fairy tale apparently had a dark side. Gypsy Willis was no princess, according to her family, who feuded with their daughter for years.

"I would consider Gypsy to be a deceptive, malevolent, malicious, calculating, person," said Julie Willis. "If she sees something she wants, she will rationalize that to the point that she will get that no matter who stands in her way."

And what she apparently wanted, according to investigators, was Martin MacNeill, who was married, with eight children. Witney said he interviewed Willis' roommates.

 

[Norwegian]

"He said, 'I never loved Michelle, but I love Gypsy,'" said Vicky Willis. "And I said, 'but you had a family with Michelle'… He says, 'Actually, I loved her as a friend, I loved her as a sister, but I never loved her like I love Gypsy.'"

Martin even proposed to Willis in front of her family, at a restaurant in Wyoming. Willis' sister, Julie, was there.

"He gives this grand speech about how he loved her, and how he loved her from the moment he saw her," said Julie Willis. "And he knelt and proposed to her, and Gypsy cried. It was very fairy tale."

And this speech comes from a man that at his wife's funeral only could talk about his own achievements in life.

 

[Dmacky]

In the affidavit, point 26, it says that on March 26 2007, daughters Elle and Sabrina was sealed - a LDS ceremony that binds families together forever.

Was Giselle ever sealed? If she wasn't before and not even in March 2007 I think this shows that MM had plans already then to deport her back to Ukraine to be able to steal her identity. Pre-meditation all the way.

Giselle is now adopted by Michele's sister, Linda Cluff. It was during the adoption process the whole identity theft was revealed. I'm certain Giselle has changed her name to Noelle. During Rachel's testimony she referred to Noelle numerous times and I wasn't quite following. But after some social media lurking I can connect the dots. I feel so sorry for this girl and all that she've had to endure.

Thank you Norwegian for the info about Giselle. I was wondering what ever happened to that poor little girl!

 

[Dmacky]

Also Gypsy has a daughter who is being raised by her parents. I have no doubt that Gypsy was in on this murder. She was probably there! JMO ~
Evil attracts evil...MM + Gypsy. I found a video yesterday where it was said that gypsy killed an animal when she was younger, but the forums were down and now I cannot find it! It was a 20/20 episode...I am off to look for it.