GUILTY WA - Jamie Chaffin for child endangerment, Bremerton, 2012

[Kimberlyd125]

I don't think anybody here has said he should not face consequences. I think most think they should be age appropriate consequences.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

But what would age appropriate consequences be for something this serious?

An extended time out?

I agree that an intensive family investigation be conducted as this child did not get this gun out of thin air. Stopping the cycle of violence is difficult. But, what "if" this child just found the gun? It happens. I've had students find guns (but they turned them in) and yes, some of these kids were in 3rd grade. How would you be able to hold any parents accountable if the child "found" the gun on the way to school?

There is more to this story. Bet on it. He had his reasons for bringing this gun to school.

Responsibility is a dirty word now a days. He was responsible. What message do we send if we try to "excuse" this because of his age?

When does "responsibility" start? How old does one have to be to be considered responsible? Does it depend on the act of irresponsibility? Its well known that gangs use small children to crawl through house windows and unlock the door so the "older" kids can rob it. Then, when caught, they throw the young child under the bus because "he's so young - he didn't know what he was doing"?

JMHO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

But what would age appropriate consequences be for something this serious?

An extended time out?

I agree that an intensive family investigation be conducted as this child did not get this gun out of thin air. Stopping the cycle of violence is difficult. But, what "if" this child just found the gun? It happens. I've had students find guns (but they turned them in) and yes, some of these kids were in 3rd grade. How would you be able to hold any parents accountable if the child "found" the gun on the way to school?

There is more to this story. Bet on it. He had his reasons for bringing this gun to school.

Responsibility is a dirty word now a days. He was responsible. What message do we send if we try to "excuse" this because of his age?

When does "responsibility" start? How old does one have to be to be considered responsible? Does it depend on the act of irresponsibility? Its well known that gangs use small children to crawl through house windows and unlock the door so the "older" kids can rob it. Then, when caught, they throw the young child under the bus because "he's so young - he didn't know what he was doing"?

JMHO

He said he brought the gun to school because he was going to run away.

Again, this is an example of a nine year old's thinking. Nobody needs a gun to run away.

Seems he got the gun from his Mom's house after a visit.

IMO SHE should be charged. But from what I'm reading, WA does not have laws regarding the adult leaving guns around.
That's twisted IMO.

I think he needs help. Not being treated like an adult criminal.

It is obvious he did not mean to hurt anybody.

JMO

 

[Kimberlyd125]

The boy who brought the gun to Armin Jahr Elementary in Bremerton was taken into custody Wednesday after being booked into Kitsap County juvenile detention for investigation of unlawful possession of a gun, bringing a dangerous weapon to school and third-degree assault.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57383339/wash-boy-9-to-be-charged-in-shooting-of-girl-8/

So, he can be charged with unlawful possession of a gun, but will the mother be charged with allowing that unlawful possession?????
Looks like that will not be the case.
IMO it's a crying shame when adults get off scott free for endangerment but a nine year old will be charged for it.

JMO

 

[Wise Old Owl]

He said he brought the gun to school because he was going to run away.

Again, this is an example of a nine year old's thinking. Nobody needs a gun to run away.

Seems he got the gun from his Mom's house after a visit.

IMO SHE should be charged. But from what I'm reading, WA does not have laws regarding the adult leaving guns around.
That's twisted IMO.

I think he needs help. Not being treated like an adult criminal.

It is obvious he did not mean to hurt anybody.JMO

BBM

And I'm quite sure that most drunk drivers who get in their cars and drive don't mean to hurt anybody.

I agree that he needs help. But he also needs consequences.

There has to be more to the "running away" story of why he felt he needed a gun to run away. Would like to hear the rest of that conversation. Did he need a gun for protection to run away? And wouldn't that add credence to his "consciencousness of guilt"? Needing a gun for protection says that the individual knows guns are weapons and can be used to "hurt"?

I also agree his mom should face some type of charges.


I don't know what the answers should be. But I do know that something needs to be changed when it comes to kids hurting, shooting, killing other kids. Kids kill kids every day. To continue the cycle of not punishing kids for such blatant acts of irresponsibility just multiplies the victims. There has to be some type of accountability. If this child does not receive any "punishment" for this, what have we, as a society, taught him? That its ok to act irresponsible and break the rules (law) is ok as long as you have a good "excuse"?

JMHO

 

[w1df10wr]

Like others, I think he should face age appropriate consequences. And the adult who left the gun for him to get, should also face charges.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017581516_amina24m.html - "Surgeon Eileen Bulger said the 8-year-old is "out of the woods" in terms of bleeding, but still faces a long and complicated recovery. It's too soon for a prognosis, she said." - prayers & get well soon wishes for her.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

BBM

And I'm quite sure that most drunk drivers who get in their cars and drive don't mean to hurt anybody.

I agree that he needs help. But he also needs consequences.

There has to be more to the "running away" story of why he felt he needed a gun to run away. Would like to hear the rest of that conversation. Did he need a gun for protection to run away? And wouldn't that add credence to his "consciencousness of guilt"? Needing a gun for protection says that the individual knows guns are weapons and can be used to "hurt"?

I also agree his mom should face some type of charges.


I don't know what the answers should be. But I do know that something needs to be changed when it comes to kids hurting, shooting, killing other kids. Kids kill kids every day. To continue the cycle of not punishing kids for such blatant acts of irresponsibility just multiplies the victims. There has to be some type of accountability. If this child does not receive any "punishment" for this, what have we, as a society, taught him? That its ok to act irresponsible and break the rules (law) is ok as long as you have a good "excuse"?

JMHO

Most drunk drivers are not 9.


BBM - I don't know that the bolded part is accurate. If we were talking about an adult I would agree with you.
But a nine year old does not always think like we do.
And even if he knew they can be used to hurt does not mean he intended on using it to hurt.
It discharged when he set his backpack down. He didn't pull the trigger.


Nobody has ever suggested that this child should not be punished. Again, there needs to be consequences. I just don't agree with how they handled his court appearance or how he was treated. IMO it makes no sense to do that to a child.

If he would have pulled the gun out of the backback, pointed it at the girl, and pulled the trigger, then YES I would agree he meant to hurt her. From what has been reported, he never intended for that gun to go off and he did not know the gun WOULD go off when he put his backpack down.

Should he have taken the gun??? NO
Should he have brought the gun to school??? NO
Should he be treated like an adult criminal even though his brain is at least 10years from thinking like one??? NO - IMO

There was no criminal malice here.

The Mom should be in the orange jumpsuit standing before a judge asking for bail.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I hope and pray the little girl heals well.
I hope and pray the little boy gets the help he needs. Seems he's had a rough go in life.

And I hope and pray the Mother realizes what SHE has done to her child.

JMO

 

[jjenny]

Accident or not.

Concrete operations stage or not.

This child knew the rules. He knew that bringing a gun to school was wrong and against the rules. That much he did know. He was told.

He brought a gun to school. Period.

That gun went off and shot another child. Period.

Both the child and whoever the adult was that did not secure that gun so that child could get to it should face consequences.

Thank God that the little girl will be ok.

The "law" was broken when he brought that gun onto school grounds and he knew he was breaking it when he did it.

JMHO

And we don't even know yet if the little girl will be o'key. Sounds like she will survive this but what kind of physical consequences is she facing? We don't know. We don't know if they had to remove any organs from her, etc.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

My point about the drunk drivers was lost. I was trying to show that a lot of times the "intention of hurting" isn't there.

Criminal malice? No. I agree with that.

Its what you said:

Should he have taken the gun? No.
Should he have brought the gun to school? No.

He knew (9 years old or not) he was told. Do not bring weapons to school. AND he knew why that was a rule, yet he did it anyway. He defied authority regardless of his intention to hurt. Accidents happen - yet accidents are minimized when rules are followed.

I can tell you, from my experiences, that there is so much more to this. Most children know right from wrong and they try to do the right thing, especially when it comes to bringing guns to school. He didn't. And its the "why he didn't" that should come into play here. Its the "because he didn't" that there is an innocent little girl fighting for her life in a hospital.

What are the parents of the little girl to think? I can't imagine what they are going through. She was an innocent victim. There is no excuse for why she was shot at school. None.

I don't know if parading this child into a courtroom in an orange jail jumpsuit was the right thing to do or not. How are we, as a society, supposed to send messages to parents and children alike that we have societal rules and laws that are to be followed? And, if they aren't - bad things happen.

I can say that if this child doesn't get into a theraputic environment and receive appropriate and specific help, he won't "learn" anything from this and nothing will change.

I also feel it is insensitive to the victim and her parents to try to excuse away this child's act of defiance by reason of his age. He was old enough to know right from wrong and old enough to understand the rule of no guns on school property. But then saying he isn't old enough to face the consequences of what he did doesn't make any sense.

Responsibility and accountability aren't age specific. If one is old enough to know right from wrong - then one is old enough to be held responsible and accountable.

JMHO

 

[not_my_kids]

My six year old knows that guns can hurt. He knows that guns can kill, and even though I doubt that he fully understands the concept of "kill", he knows that it isn't good.

There is a part of me that wants to say that if my 6 year old can get it, surely a nine year old could.

But, my son knows these things because I taught him. If i hadn't taught him, he wouldn't know.

I know nothing about the parenting the nine year old has recieved,with the exception of the fact that one of the people that was supposed to be watching and teaching him let him access a loaded firearm. I have no idea what he was taught about that loaded firearm.

I think that this child is going to need therapy simply because he did cause the death of another child, regardless of his intention that day.

As far as criminal charges, I just don't know, and I'm glad I don't have to make that call. The parent that allowed him to access the gun, apparently his mother, should be facing charges, but for some reason, it appears that WA legislature never got around to addressing what should happen to a parent that leaves a gun lying around.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

My point about the drunk drivers was lost. I was trying to show that a lot of times the "intention of hurting" isn't there.

Criminal malice? No. I agree with that.

Its what you said:

Should he have taken the gun? No.
Should he have brought the gun to school? No.

He knew (9 years old or not) he was told. Do not bring weapons to school. AND he knew why that was a rule, yet he did it anyway. He defied authority regardless of his intention to hurt. Accidents happen - yet accidents are minimized when rules are followed.

I can tell you, from my experiences, that there is so much more to this. Most children know right from wrong and they try to do the right thing, especially when it comes to bringing guns to school. He didn't. And its the "why he didn't" that should come into play here. Its the "because he didn't" that there is an innocent little girl fighting for her life in a hospital.

What are the parents of the little girl to think? I can't imagine what they are going through. She was an innocent victim. There is no excuse for why she was shot at school. None.

I don't know if parading this child into a courtroom in an orange jail jumpsuit was the right thing to do or not. How are we, as a society, supposed to send messages to parents and children alike that we have societal rules and laws that are to be followed? And, if they aren't - bad things happen.

I can say that if this child doesn't get into a theraputic environment and receive appropriate and specific help, he won't "learn" anything from this and nothing will change.

I also feel it is insensitive to the victim and her parents to try to excuse away this child's act of defiance by reason of his age. He was old enough to know right from wrong and old enough to understand the rule of no guns on school property. But then saying he isn't old enough to face the consequences of what he did doesn't make any sense.

Responsibility and accountability aren't age specific. If one is old enough to know right from wrong - then one is old enough to be held responsible and accountable.

JMHO

Your point about the drunk drivers was not lost on me. My point was, kids think and act differently than adults.

I agree with almost everything in your post.

Again, I just disagree with HOW he has been handled.

I can not ignore his cognitive development playing a role in his actions nor can I ignore the fact he should be punished and treated AGE SPECIFICALLY.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

My six year old knows that guns can hurt. He knows that guns can kill, and even though I doubt that he fully understands the concept of "kill", he knows that it isn't good.

There is a part of me that wants to say that if my 6 year old can get it, surely a nine year old could.

But, my son knows these things because I taught him. If i hadn't taught him, he wouldn't know.

I know nothing about the parenting the nine year old has recieved,with the exception of the fact that one of the people that was supposed to be watching and teaching him let him access a loaded firearm. I have no idea what he was taught about that loaded firearm.

I think that this child is going to need therapy simply because he did cause the death of another child, regardless of his intention that day.

As far as criminal charges, I just don't know, and I'm glad I don't have to make that call. The parent that allowed him to access the gun, apparently his mother, should be facing charges, but for some reason, it appears that WA legislature never got around to addressing what should happen to a parent that leaves a gun lying around.

From reading the articles, he has been shuffled around his entire life. His grandmother took care of him but she died a year ago and the uncle is now taking care of him.

He was just visiting his mother when he took the gun.

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Washington state has an array of legal codes that go after adults who don't protect kids from falling into a swimming pool, but when it comes to laws that impose criminal liabilities against adults who negligently leave firearms accessible to children, we have virtually squat.That's got to change.

It's got to change despite objections from the NRA and other gun rights groups.

It's got to change regardless of the timidity of state lawmakers who fret over the narrow political backlash they'd have to contend with.

It's got to change so that 8-year-old girls don't have bullets ripping through their bodies.

It's got to change so that 3rd-grade boys don't face more legal consequences than irresponsible and criminally negligent adults.

BBM
http://www.komonews.com/opinion/ken...-walk-after-3rd-grade-shooting-140321173.html

 

[Kimberlyd125]

Todd Dowell of the Kitsap County prosecutor's juvenile division said his office had enough information to charge the boy on Thursday. However, he will not be arraigned until the court determines if the boy has the capacity to understand what he did was wrong.

A capacity hearing in this case will be held in two weeks.

http://news.yahoo.com/father-kid-made-mistake-school-033856603.html

BBM

 

[Kimberlyd125]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46515592

A third-grade teacher praised for helping an 8-year-old girl wounded by a gunshot says she's concerned about the little girl's recovery - and about the little boy accused of bringing the gun into the Bremerton, Wash., classroom.

The girl is hospitalized in critical condition. Poss says she agreed to talk because of the little boy accused of bringing a gun that accidentally discharged while in his backpack. She says, "He has a lot of good in his heart. I know he didn't intend this to happen. And I know he's hurting tonight."

 

[TXN4LIFE]

Something that struck me from one of the articles....the Grandmother adopted him, so we obviously know that the mom didnt have custody but had visitations, but what about dad? When grandma died, the Uncle took him, but the dad of the boy was living with them. I'm sure their was a reason that Grandma had the boy and neither of the parents did. Should the dad have even been living with him? One article says the parents have been in and out of trouble, and lists the things the mom has been in for, but no mention of the dads. I wonder if they boy was running away if their is something more to this with the dad? Just speculating and throwing it out there.

Sad, sad, situation all the way around.

 

[kgeaux]

Doesn't understand? I think a 9 year old is perfectly capable of understanding.

Brains do not completely reach maturity until one is in the 20's. That is scientifically proven.

A nine year old's capacity for understanding and making decisions is going to differ radically from an adult's.

We know those things, there have been numerous studies to prove them.

We cannot judge a child's actions by adult standards, especially in situations where there was no intent involved.

There should be consequences, but they should be age appropriate.

 

[jjenny]

Brains do not completely reach maturity until one is in the 20's. That is scientifically proven.

A nine year old's capacity for understanding and making decisions is going to differ radically from an adult's.

We know those things, there have been numerous studies to prove them.

We cannot judge a child's actions by adult standards, especially in situations where there was no intent involved.

There should be consequences, but they should be age appropriate.

He isn't facing adult consequences. No one is going to try him as an adult. He will be dealt with in the juvenile justice system in an age appropriate manner.

 

[Lovejac]

Hmmm. I honestly don't know quite what to say. I need to know more about this boy and his living situation. Horrid....any way you look at it. How I pray that Amina pulls through.

http://news.yahoo.com/father-kid-made-mistake-school-shooting-234421181.html

Father: 'My kid made a mistake' in school shooting
February 23, 2012

"Crying and wearing an orange jail jumpsuit, a frightened 9-year-old boy accused of accidentally shooting a classmate sat before a judge in juvenile court Thursday as his father gently rubbed his back. The scene — coming a day after police said the boy accidently shot a fellow third-grader — raised questions that will be played out in the legal system: Did he know what he did was wrong? And is anyone else responsible?

Bail was set at $50,000 during the preliminary hearing, and ultimately the court will determine whether the third-grader will face criminal charges as an 8-year-old girl remains critically wounded. "I just want everyone to know that my kid made a mistake. It was a terrible mistake," the boy's father, Jason Cochran, said outside the courthouse...."

and

"....Authorities believe he got the weapon during a visitation with his mother over the weekend, according to charging documents released Thursday. The documents state that the boy told a classmate about five days ago that he was going to bring his "dad's gun" to school and run away. The gun discharged after the boy slammed his backpack down on a desk..."

and

"....The boy's classmate remained in critical condition at Harborview Medical Center in Seattle after undergoing surgery for a gunshot wound. Dr. Eileen Bulger said the girl will likely be at the hospital for several weeks and face further surgeries. She was sedated and on a ventilator but has woken up and interacted with her parents...."

More at link

Wow. That article contains a wealth of information, mostly disturbing. That boy has definitely not had a loving, safe, "normal" life.

I continue to pray that Amina recovers.