What are your thoughts on the Jonbenet case?

[rojnish]

Great questions Anonymiss. Lots of food for thought. I'll try to respond to them individually with some ideas.

Why would PR plan a publicity kidnapping on the night before the family's Christmas trip to Michigan? I believe the trip to their vacation home in MI was an annual family tradition. Not planning it that particular year would raise questions. The Christmas date aligns with McReynolds' daughter's kidnap experience, and gave them an inside look at the extra publicity it would generate.

Why would PR pay such a high amount ($60,000) to Helgoth and McReynolds for a fake kidnapping? The actual amount PR was willing to give up was $118K, John's entire net bonus. The family was worth several millions thus for them this is not a large sum of money to pull off such a delicate caper.

If the attempted kidnapping was faked, why wasn't JBR aware of the plan so she would just cooperate and not panic trying to get the rope off her neck? JBR was not fully made aware of the plan (that would be too risky to trust a 6 year old to maintain that type of secret), but she was told by McReynolds that Santa Claus would be visiting her AFTER Christmas with an extra surprise. Recall that at a holiday party several weeks prior to Christmas Eve McReynolds asked JBR to give him a tour of the house, including the basement. I believe JBR was awakened by McReynolds and peacefully and quietly followed him downstairs, possibly grabbing a piece of pineapple from the bowl BR left out on the camera. It was likely once she was handed over to Helgoth or someone similar that she panicked and became unruly.

Why would Helgoth kill JBR and not collect the $60,000 fee for a faked kidnapping? It is likely Helgoth did not intend to kill her, and did intend to collect the $60k as he indicated to his friend several weeks prior. He was reportedly a meth user, and may have consumed some that night. He also seemingly had some issues regarding antisocial attitudes. Don't forget he was alleged to have molested his girlfriend's daughter who reportedly caught him in bed with her. He also commented to his friend one time he had wondered what it would be like to crush a human skull. I've never consumed meth, but my limited understanding is that it can allow for unruly, unusual, and possibly disinhibited behavior.

Did PR and JR stay in bed while the fake kidnapping was going on and take the chance Burke wouldn't wake up and and see it? Yes, I suspect PR and JR remained in their third floor bedroom, trusting that McReynolds would handily pull off the caper. They had trusted him to pull off representing Santa Claus for parties which, while not comparable to a kidnapping, requires a level of trust.

 

[rojnish]

Great questions Anonymiss. Lots of food for thought. I'll try to respond to them individually with some ideas.

Why would PR plan a publicity kidnapping on the night before the family's Christmas trip to Michigan? I believe the trip to their vacation home in MI was an annual family tradition. Not planning it that particular year would raise questions. The Christmas date aligns with McReynolds' daughter's kidnap experience, and gave them an inside look at the extra publicity it would generate.

Why would PR pay such a high amount ($60,000) to Helgoth and McReynolds for a fake kidnapping? The actual amount PR was willing to give up was $118K, John's entire net bonus. The family was worth several millions thus for them this is not a large sum of money to pull off such a delicate caper.

If the attempted kidnapping was faked, why wasn't JBR aware of the plan so she would just cooperate and not panic trying to get the rope off her neck? JBR was not fully made aware of the plan (that would be too risky to trust a 6 year old to maintain that type of secret), but she was told by McReynolds that Santa Claus would be visiting her AFTER Christmas with an extra surprise. Recall that at a holiday party several weeks prior to Christmas Eve McReynolds asked JBR to give him a tour of the house, including the basement. I believe JBR was awakened by McReynolds and peacefully and quietly followed him downstairs, possibly grabbing a piece of pineapple from the bowl BR left out on the camera. It was likely once she was handed over to Helgoth or someone similar that she panicked and became unruly.

Why would Helgoth kill JBR and not collect the $60,000 fee for a faked kidnapping? It is likely Helgoth did not intend to kill her, and did intend to collect the $60k as he indicated to his friend several weeks prior. He was reportedly a meth user, and may have consumed some that night. He also seemingly had some issues regarding antisocial attitudes. Don't forget he was alleged to have molested his girlfriend's daughter who reportedly caught him in bed with her. He also commented to his friend one time he had wondered what it would be like to crush a human skull. I've never consumed meth, but my limited understanding is that it can allow for unruly, unusual, and possibly disinhibited behavior.

Did PR and JR stay in bed while the fake kidnapping was going on and take the chance Burke wouldn't wake up and and see it? Yes, I suspect PR and JR remained in their third floor bedroom, trusting that McReynolds would handily pull off the caper. They had trusted him to pull off representing Santa Claus for parties which, while not comparable to a kidnapping, requires a level of trust.

 

[anonymiss]

Great questions Anonymiss. Lots of food for thought. I'll try to respond to them individually with some ideas.

Why would PR plan a publicity kidnapping on the night before the family's Christmas trip to Michigan? I believe the trip to their vacation home in MI was an annual family tradition. Not planning it that particular year would raise questions. The Christmas date aligns with McReynolds' daughter's kidnap experience, and gave them an inside look at the extra publicity it would generate.

Why would PR pay such a high amount ($60,000) to Helgoth and McReynolds for a fake kidnapping? The actual amount PR was willing to give up was $118K, John's entire net bonus. The family was worth several millions thus for them this is not a large sum of money to pull off such a delicate caper.

If the attempted kidnapping was faked, why wasn't JBR aware of the plan so she would just cooperate and not panic trying to get the rope off her neck? JBR was not fully made aware of the plan (that would be too risky to trust a 6 year old to maintain that type of secret), but she was told by McReynolds that Santa Claus would be visiting her AFTER Christmas with an extra surprise. Recall that at a holiday party several weeks prior to Christmas Eve McReynolds asked JBR to give him a tour of the house, including the basement. I believe JBR was awakened by McReynolds and peacefully and quietly followed him downstairs, possibly grabbing a piece of pineapple from the bowl BR left out on the camera. It was likely once she was handed over to Helgoth or someone similar that she panicked and became unruly.

Why would Helgoth kill JBR and not collect the $60,000 fee for a faked kidnapping? It is likely Helgoth did not intend to kill her, and did intend to collect the $60k as he indicated to his friend several weeks prior. He was reportedly a meth user, and may have consumed some that night. He also seemingly had some issues regarding antisocial attitudes. Don't forget he was alleged to have molested his girlfriend's daughter who reportedly caught him in bed with her. He also commented to his friend one time he had wondered what it would be like to crush a human skull. I've never consumed meth, but my limited understanding is that it can allow for unruly, unusual, and possibly disinhibited behavior.

Did PR and JR stay in bed while the fake kidnapping was going on and take the chance Burke wouldn't wake up and and see it? Yes, I suspect PR and JR remained in their third floor bedroom, trusting that McReynolds would handily pull off the caper. They had trusted him to pull off representing Santa Claus for parties which, while not comparable to a kidnapping, requires a level of trust.

I was thinking a dirt bag like Helgoth would accept much less for a kidnapping than 60 grand. Anyway, did Helgoth and McR hang round for two hours after the head injury to strangle JBR? Why is there no evidence of their footprints outside leaving the house after the failed kidnapping? Why would McR be involved since the same thing happened to his daughter, wouldn't he be the number one suspect?

 

[Tobiano8th]

here is my succinct (Hercules Poirot) analysis of the case:

IDI: there is no reasonable evidence supporting this conclusion. putting IDI turns into such a convoluted, bizarre affair. and nothing like this has ever happened before. and I go back to no evidence supporting this scenario

RDI: arguably, lots of evidence supporting this. of course, this get a bit difficult when you consider the 4 R's all lived together i.e. DNA evidence will be everywhere, but evidence of "what?".......definitely, requires some big "leaps of faith"

but EITHER IDI OR RDI. THAT ADDS UP TO 100% (the R's knowing who did it and not coming forward with said info = RDI for classification purposes

 

[proust20]

DNA evidence is not proof of guilt, and it cannot explain away the many differing accounts offered by the Rs over time. IDI has numerous lapses of logic that are tiresome to recount; but which can be found in several threads already posted on this site.

 

[ama7789]

I've been interested in this case since I was young, and I've created a theory that I believe explains most if not all of the weird aspects.

I believe it was an intruder, and while I don't have a definite idea of who exactly I think it was, I have come to the conclusion that is wasn't any of the Ramseys.

However, I think that when the parents discovered Jon Benet's body, they assumed Burke was guilty due to his history of violence and hot temper. Afraid of loosing their 2nd child, they staged a ransom note and purposely tried to set the scene up to diverge suspicion from the family.

But because they were in such a distraught state at the time, they overlooked a lot of details (the stationary, the exact ransom amount, etc.)

Honestly this is the only theory that makes sense to me, as for a while I believed it was Burke but that theory just doesn't add up imo.

 

[Lindyloulou]

The family had their home open to the public. Somebody could've opened a door or window while there and/or been hiding in the home. They would've had time to look up all the info about The amount of John's bonus. It seems like a drug hazed ransom note (meth, amphetamines, etc). The garrot is a very sophisticated tool. A sicko for sure.

 

[Always Stay Hopeful]

I don't believe PR was involved in the murder. I think that her involvement goes as far as covering up for someone else, but I don't believe she hurt JB. I don't have the feeling that JR killed JB, but I do have questions about whether he ever SA her. My feeling is that BDI. Possibly assisting JAR. I think the parents covered up for BR. I've wondered if JAR involved B for that reason, because his parents would cover up what happened to protect him. If they were to share their suspicions of JAR, he could bring BR into it. This is only one of the theories I've thought of. I don't even know if BR would have faced consequences in this instance because of his age. But if the parents initially only thought it was BR, and they tampered with evidence to protect him, they may have felt the need to maintain their story to avoid trouble themselves.

 

[Always Stay Hopeful]

I hope my last post doesn't sound ridiculous. I just have very strange feelings about JAR and BR. Like I said though, these are only theories I've considered and wanted to share.

 

[PavlaHol]

my personal opinion is that jonbenet heard burke and patsy having pineapple and milk downstairs and wanted to have some. she grabbed one piece and burke had enough and all his jealousy came out and he grabbed something and struck her. she wasn't moving and he didn't know if he was dead so he poked her with his train track ( the marks thought to be a stun gun). patsy screamed and they covered it up along with john.

I agree, there is no way it didn't go down like this or a very very similar way - it must have been accidental / unintentional killing and a cover up. That's the only explanation that really makes sense.
Hard facts - 1) the 911 call - "What did you find" and "We're not talking to you" heard at the end after sound enhancing,
2) The absolutely nonsensical ransome "note" written on Patsy's notepad with her pen
3) John leading the investigators right to JB's body
4) Shards of broken glass from the window covered with dust and debris (so it is impossible the window was broken that day, must have been some time ago). Etc ... these are proof enough.

 

[danablue1]

I agree, there is no way it didn't go down like this or a very very similar way - it must have been accidental / unintentional killing and a cover up. That's the only explanation that really makes sense.
Hard facts - 1) the 911 call - "What did you find" and "We're not talking to you" heard at the end after sound enhancing,
2) The absolutely nonsensical ransome "note" written on Patsy's notepad with her pen
3) John leading the investigators right to JB's body
4) Shards of broken glass from the window covered with dust and debris (so it is impossible the window was broken that day, must have been some time ago). Etc ... these are proof enough.

There's no way you would deny your child medical attention. Any parent would call 911 and deal with the other child later. I don't buy it.

 

[danablue1]

It was an accident that couldn't easily be explained but it wasn't BR

 

[BOESP]

I think the Grand Jury got it right when they filed true bills against John and Patsy but then Hunter wouldn't enter the Grand Jury recommendation so a trial could be pursued. I still think Patsy is responsible and John supported her. They aren't going to try a dead person. But then, Steve Thomas also thought there might still be a prosecution even after Patsy died, so he must have thought John was also involved.

 

[UKGuy]

I think the Grand Jury got it right when they filed true bills against John and Patsy but then Hunter wouldn't enter the Grand Jury recommendation so a trial could be pursued. I still think Patsy is responsible and John supported her. They aren't going to try a dead person. But then, Steve Thomas also thought there might still be a prosecution even after Patsy died, so he must have thought John was also involved.

BOESP,
There is a difference between John supporting PR and John assisting PR with the staging.

Both were hit with the same bills, meaning John can still appear in court on a Murder In The First Degree charge.

.

 

[UKGuy]

There's no way you would deny your child medical attention. Any parent would call 911 and deal with the other child later. I don't buy it.

danablue1,
Yet, in any PDI Patsy denies JonBenet medical assistance, further more , the forensic evidence suggests Patsy ligature asphyxiated JonBenet.

I cannot see why Alex Hunter thought he never had a case against Patsy, never mind John, their forensic evidence was deposited all over JonBenet in the wine-cellar and externally, e.g. the paint-tote?

What was Alex Hunter concealing?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

I just rewatched the short clip of BR interview Jan. 8, 1997.

He states, he knows what happened.
When he speaks about the person that took the hammer out, then hit her in the head and took out a knife he is stating it’s a “he”.
He apparently has something to hide because he immediately takes the toy and covers his face with it; in his telling.

He could have heard a commotion and got up to investigate and caught somebody else perpetrating the crime. His account is specific but it does not allow for his knowledge of her strangulation as SS overhead BR and DS talk about it; 2 days later.

 

[UKGuy]

I just rewatched the short clip of BR interview Jan. 8, 1997.

He states, he knows what happened.
When he speaks about the person that took the hammer out, then hit her in the head and took out a knife he is stating it’s a “he”.
He apparently has something to hide because he immediately takes the toy and covers his face with it; in his telling.

He could have heard a commotion and got up to investigate and caught somebody else perpetrating the crime. His account is specific but it does not allow for his knowledge of her strangulation as SS overhead BR and DS talk about it; 2 days later.

Rain on my Parade,

Yes, Burke knows far too many details. Any fair minded observer has to ask: how did he know?

Even if Burke walked in on JonBenet being assaulted, presumably he would not have been allowed to view the follow up staging?

Even if the case is BDI and his parents stage JonBenet with Patsy asphyxiating her, they would never allow Burke to view the outcome.

The part of the interview that puts Burke in the frame is when he says Jonbenet's killer used a hammer to whack her on the head.

That's privileged information, even the coroner was unaware JonBenet had been whacked on the head!

Basically, as with his Dr. Phil interview, Burke incriminates himself.

He was a child so nobody expected an Oscar winning performance. Hubris won over and he could not contain his desire to demonstrate that he knew something.

Same thing happens when he is debating with DS how JonBenet was killed and again with Dr. Phil when discussing why JonBenet was killed, e.g. She flaunted herself, I'm assuming that is a biographical remark and not simply a pageant observation?

I'm not sure if he picked up this trait from JR, PR or both parents?

Either way Burke knows who killed JonBenet, so he will be on the media radar for future interviews.

i.e. if he did not initially assault JonBenet he knows one of his parents did, e.g. Patsy ligature asphyxiating JonBenet?

So he will know if both his parents were involved, and of course if the case is BDI and Burke knows he never ligature asphyxiated JonBenet then he knows one of his parents did?

If we can work this out, so could Alex Hunter who knew taking the case to trial would result in not only Patsy facing a Murder In The First Degree along with John but Burke's undisclosed role in JonBenet's death being revealed, so Hunter decided not to file the True Bills!

.

 

[BOESP]

I think it likely Burke had been prepped by his parents about how to respond while being interviewed. They may have told him something (truth or not) about what happened to JonBenet, something that would fit the details of her death but not necessarily the truth.

 

[UKGuy]

I think it likely Burke had been prepped by his parents about how to respond while being interviewed. They may have told him something (truth or not) about what happened to JonBenet, something that would fit the details of her death but not necessarily the truth.

BOESP,
Yes Burke might have been prepped, its more likely than not given he might have been a crime-scene witness?

If Burke's parents paid that amount of attention to detail then they would have realized furnishing Burke with precise actual crime-scene details, staged or not, would give the game away, as Burke was sound asleep all night according to the parents version of events.

Also you have the parents in a BPD interview stating categorically that they never discussed the case with Burke other than to tell him JonBenet was now in heaven.

The big question is did Alex Hunter take his decision not to file the true bills independently from the Ramsey's?

On this aspect Patsy lucked out here, big time!

.

 

[DrQ]

This case is a hot topic for many on WS. I for one flip flop regularly on what happened. IMO families have dysfunction. The Ramsey's are no different. What could be seen and perceived may be very different from what happened behind closed doors. If we look deeply, the facts, evidence, "players", and assumptions don't fill in all the slots. I ask myself these questions and still noodle.
What happened? A young child was murdered in her home. This is based on all of the evidence in the case. But what really happened?
How and where it happened facts and assumptions lead us to strangled, head injury, and basement. Is the basement the right place? Logically yes, positively maybe not.
Who committed the crime? There are endless possibilities and suspects. Family member? Family members? Intruder? Friend of family? Secret Santa?
WHY is the biggest question of all and if answered just might lead to who.
Why would anyone in the family or outside the family want to harm this child? Was is premediated? Maybe. Did something go wrong and things got out of hand... like a argument? Most importantly, did JB know the killer? And the list goes on.
I am always open to hearing others member's ideas and opinions. The one assumption I always make is I may not be right.