Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[UKGuy]

possibly,and perhaps it was Patsy who was heard screaming,not JB? Especially if Ms Stanton was correct about the time.. around 2am.
As for the rest,I'm not saying it was Patsy who did it;I'm only saying it appears someone or someones didn't want risk going back up to JB's room.Her room wasn't staged to appear as if she was taken from her bed anyway.
Anyway,you have to wonder what the heck the line of reasoning was with the white gap top and lj's on her..as in,what was the original intent,before the RN was written? were they going to put her outside,appearing she had wandered out of the house,and her pants were now missing (trophy item taken by the assaulter,'proof' she was assaulted by someone outside the house?).

JMO8778,
Exactly, given that they had most of the night to get the details right, how does it end up with a crime-scene that needs to be orally embroidered?

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[UKGuy]

I recall PR being spoken to about the fact that there were no other size 12s found in the home, but don't recall that it was said that LE found a size 6 that said "Wednesday". For that matter, while LE mentions removing size 4-6 panties, LE never mentions specifically that ANY other panties that were "Bloomies Day of the Week" panties were found an all, except for the pair on the body.

As far as JBR wearing day clothes- not exactly. While she was wearing a cotton sweatshirt top, the long johns were not day clothes. And as I have mentioned- every mother has once in a while put a child to bed wearing the shirt they had worn that day, especially when a child has fallen asleep elsewhere (on a couch, in a car, etc.) You can pull off the pants and pull on pajama bottoms (or thermal undies) without waking the child; pulling a shirt over the head and manipulating their arms to change out of the shirt into pajama tops is more difficult to do without waking the child.
The fact that JBR was wearing a shirt worn that day with long johns may have no bearing on the crime. It's the replacement panties that have a bearing on the crime.
However- I have not seen where there was any mention of the pink pajama tops and bottoms JBR wore Christmas Eve (and seen in the Christmas morning photos) . There is something on her bed that seems to be at least one half of the pink pajamas. If it was the top, then where are the bottoms? They may be a BIG link to the crime- if stained with blood or other matter. So where are they? I don't recall seeing them on any evidence list. I wonder if they went out the door with Auntie P?
Now, the disappearance of the pink pajama bottoms would make me suspicious of the long johns. Then I'd have reason to think that the long johns were put on her after whatever caused the vaginal bleeding. THEN it makes sense. Blood on the panties- blood on the pink pajama bottoms- blood on her pubic area and thighs. Wipe the blood, change the panties, change the pink pajama bottoms. To make it look like she was abducted from bed, she'd have to be wearing appropriate clothes.

DeeDee249,

I recall PR being spoken to about the fact that there were no other size 12s found in the home, but don't recall that it was said that LE found a size 6 that said "Wednesday". For that matter, while LE mentions removing size 4-6 panties, LE never mentions specifically that ANY other panties that were "Bloomies Day of the Week" panties were found an all, except for the pair on the body.

Exactly, but Patsy was specifically asked to verify that she had purchased a set of size-6 Bloomingdales for JonBenet, she could not remember. So either a size-6 Wednesday pair of Bloomingdales is missing from a set recovered from her drawer or they are present? There is not much point in asking Patsy about the Bloomingdales size-6's if none were recovered, e.g. the intruder stole them all!

The size-6's were a line of questioning that had been intended to be developed, but Patsy knew where that was going so forgot if she purchased them, so its likely that the police knew there was a missing pair of size-6's and wanted Patsy to confirm they had been part of the Bloomingdales purchase. Contrast this with Patsy's vividly instant recall that she did indeed purchase the size-12's, and placed them into JonBenet's panty drawer, yet these were missing no others to be found in the house. Something does not add up here?

If there are no missing pairs of Bloomingdales size-6's then this too might need to be verified, from memory 15 pairs of size-6's were recovered from JonBenet's panty drawer. So that is potentially two sets of day's of the week, or one named set and the rest various? Assuming Patsy did no washing on the Monday, Tuesday, there might be worn pairs of Bloomingdales size-6's corresponding to the latter days of the week, but a clean Wednesday pair. I reckon without the soiled Monday, Tuesday pairs the Wednesday day of the week logic is weakened?

So from 15 choices of underwear none are Wednesday day of the week, so why not select any pair of size-6's, since if you are going to maintain JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's, why not any other pair of pants, this would explain why they are not Wednesday day of the week? Which brings us full circle to the probability that there is a Bloomingdale Wednesday pair of size-6's missing, something Patsy could not confirm since she forgot if she ever purchased them.

For that matter, while LE mentions removing size 4-6 panties, LE never mentions specifically that ANY other panties that were "Bloomies Day of the Week" panties were found an all, except for the pair on the body.

I agree, but we know that no other size-12's were recovered from JonBenet's panty drawer, so if no other Bloomingdales pants were in the drawer, then why the persistent questioning regarding Patsy purchasing a set of size-6's for JonBenet? That is Patsy states that she purchased a set of pants selected by JonBenet and a set for her niece Jenny, both were days of the week, what was not clarified was the respective sizes. What has Patsy to gain from forgetting about the Bloomingdales size-6's, not much if they are lying in JonBenet's panty drawer, but a lot more if a pair can be confirmed as missing or not, since it will confirm or deny any conjecture regarding the rationale for the size-12 redressing?

The fact that JBR was wearing a shirt worn that day with long johns may have no bearing on the crime. It's the replacement panties that have a bearing on the crime.

It does have a bearing on the staged crime-scene though, since it is inconsistent with a staged bedtime abduction, since redressing JonBenet in bedclothes is no more difficult than longjohns and size-12's and removes the need for a sleeping JonBenet being carried into the house?

However- I have not seen where there was any mention of the pink pajama tops and bottoms JBR wore Christmas Eve (and seen in the Christmas morning photos) . There is something on her bed that seems to be at least one half of the pink pajamas. If it was the top, then where are the bottoms? They may be a BIG link to the crime- if stained with blood or other matter. So where are they? I don't recall seeing them on any evidence list. I wonder if they went out the door with Auntie P?

I agree, Pamela Paugh may have removed these along with anything else, but just why they were not left on a bloodied JonBenet as evidence of an intruder assault is curious?


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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
Exactly, given that they had most of the night to get the details right, how does it end up with a crime-scene that needs to be orally embroidered?

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I still think there was a previous plan to get her out of the house,and or a thought of keeping her in the walk-in fridge until they figured out what to do,(or in an attempt to askew the time of death by placing her in there).JR was trying to account for his fresh prints being on it,so**something** must have been going on with it that he needed to 'explain' away.

 

[UKGuy]

I still think there was a previous plan to get her out of the house,and or a thought of keeping her in the walk-in fridge until they figured out what to do,(or in an attempt to askew the time of death by placing her in there).JR was trying to account for his fresh prints being on it,so**something** must have been going on with it that he needed to 'explain' away.

JMO8778,
I doubt slowing TOD was attempted, more likely she would be hidden in there, possibly a prior staged crime scene?

 

[UKGuy]

Do either of you,Deedee,UK (or any RDI,if you want to answer) have any notion about the santa suit,and why the questions about it? In particular,why would LE ask if it had been in the windowsill?
Re: the secret santa visit,since JR is the one calling himself 'santa' in DOI...ie-'and santa had one more thing to do'..IMO this had something to do with him.

JMO8778,

Who knows maybe they were thinking along the same lines as yourself? Did the last secret santa visit, end up in disaster, with JonBenet seriously injured?

If John is the secret santa then as a theory it needs some more detail, but could offer a motive and rationale for JonBenet ending up in the wine-cellar e.g. basement.


The only other theory is BDI and the rest is a messed up staged crime-scene, which then explains all the Ramsey inconsistencies and outright lies?

Without the unanimous agreement that there was prior molestation and Coroner Meyer stating there was acute and chronic sexual contact, then a PDI or BDI might fit the evidence better?

 

[coloradokares]

JMO8778,
I doubt slowing TOD was attempted, more likely she would be hidden in there, possibly a prior staged crime scene?

Call me stuppd but I beleive that they were going go full throttle with the kidnapping thing if they could and have the body found in one of two ways after they had left for Atlanta. A. Found in wine cellar if plan to get body out of the house failed B. Body found out along a wooded but frequented trail, a kidnapping gone bad as the SMF must have known the police were called. I think BOTH plans were on the table until they realized the BPD was not going to let them fly on to Atlanta. At that point they knew what ever staging they had done would have to suffice. The preferred plan had to be shelved

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I doubt slowing TOD was attempted, more likely she would be hidden in there, possibly a prior staged crime scene?

I thought about that,too.We all know the scenario of a child getting stuck in a fridge and being suffocated to death.Only with that scenario,it doesn't account for the head injury and marks around her neck.

 

[UKGuy]

Call me stuppd but I beleive that they were going go full throttle with the kidnapping thing if they could and have the body found in one of two ways after they had left for Atlanta. A. Found in wine cellar if plan to get body out of the house failed B. Body found out along a wooded but frequented trail, a kidnapping gone bad as the SMF must have known the police were called. I think BOTH plans were on the table until they realized the BPD was not going to let them fly on to Atlanta. At that point they knew what ever staging they had done would have to suffice. The preferred plan had to be shelved

coloradokares,
Yes it looks like they thought they had it planned out. I reckon they switched from an outdoor staging to an indoor one.


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[JMO8778]

I suspect they were trying to get help in getting her body out of the house..and no one was willing to go that far to help.It would just be too risky.

 

[UKGuy]

I thought about that,too.We all know the scenario of a child getting stuck in a fridge and being suffocated to death.Only with that scenario,it doesn't account for the head injury and marks around her neck.

JMO8778,
Sure but they could use the fridge in much the same manner as the wine-cellar, yet confuse the csi over the TOD?

There was possibly three types of staging available e.g. bedroom staging, elsewhere in the house staging e.g. fridge, and outdoors staging?

Now which of these would allow John to think he could be on plane asap? I reckon its the outdoors staging?

The other two must mean the parents become prime suspects and possibly arrested on the spot for further questioning.

So why was John so confident he could flee by plane, despite the house search probably not going to plan?

Possibly John staged some crime-scene down in the basement, broke the window to suggest that was the intruders entrance and exit route, and on discovery of her body all would be explained?

I reckon Patsy vetoed John's plan to dump JonBenet outdoors so was forced to take part in the wine-cellar staging as some kind of compromise?


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[UKGuy]

I suspect they were trying to get help in getting her body out of the house..and no one was willing to go that far to help.It would just be too risky.

JMO8778,
Seems like some staging had already been prepared, Patsy would have been the person to insist on an indoor staging?

John probably thought that was suicidal so had his plane ready for a quick getaway?


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[DeeDee249]

I don't think she was placed in the walk-in fridge, at least not for long. Rigor is affected by ambient temperature- if it was delayed because of the cold temp of the fridge, that would mean she was killed even closer to the arrival home that estimated, and the pineapple digestion discounts that. All digestion stops at death- the body temp has no bearing on post-mortem activity as far as the pineapple is concerned. The coldness would not affect the progress of the pineapple trough her digestive tract after death. The pineapple's progression through her digestive tract could occur ONLY while she was alive. With the discovery of pineapple in the upper digestive tract placing her TOD within 2 hours of eating that pineapple- and the Rs admittedly arriving home around 10 pm, her death really couldn't have happened much before midnight. She was in full rigor when brought up at 1 pm the next day- around 12 hours after estimated TOD. If she was refrigerated, rigor would have been delayed or slowed, and she wouldn't have been in full rigor at 1 pm the next day.
However, if she was only BRIEFLY placed in there (20-30 minutes) then possibly it would have had only a negligible affect.

 

[DeeDee249]

Colorado- I totally agree, though, with the concept that the Rs could have planned to leave the state BEFORE her body was found. I believe they thought that the police would simply leave after viewing the RN and taking some notes, and they'd be left alone while the police searched for the kidnapper. They would have arranged their flight (possibly without telling anyone in Boulder), fled to Atlanta, eventually JBR's body would have been found, and they'd stonewall in Atlanta, with their lawyers.
BUT- police DIDN'T leave. They stayed. All day. And as JR realized they had no intention of leaving them alone, and in fact had overheard JR's plans to leave and stopped it, he realized he had to abandon the plan and bring her up himself.

 

[JMO8778]

But JR didn't make that call until shortly *after her body was found,did he?

 

[DeeDee249]

But JR didn't make that call until shortly *after her body was found,did he?

No- but that doesn't mean he didn't have a getaway plan up his sleeve. It has been reported that he already had cancelled the original 7am flight shortly after the 911 call. No one knows exactly what he told his pilot; I have read where he told his pilot that something had happened to JBR. We don't know if he told his pilot to stand by for further instructions and it has also been speculated that JR have his pilot some evidence to dispose of.
I don't recall ever seeing a deposition or interview given to the pilot by LE. I assume he would have been questioned, but like everyone else who was questioned- without a trial they were not under oath, so lying would carry little in the way of penalties.
I am also unclear as to when and how JR was able to reach Melinda and her fiance. They were supposedly already en route to Charelvoix by the time JR cancelled his flight that morning. So how did he reach them and how were they able to re-route themselves to come to Bloulder instead of Charlevoix? I assume they also privately, and so the answer would involve the fact that those private pilots did not need to file a flight plan.

Actually, of the body had NOT been found, and police were still investigating a "Kidnapping" instead of a murder, the Rs may very well have been allowed to leave. It would have been surprising, if not shocking, that they were willing to leave the state with their daughter missing, but legally I don't think there would be reason to prevent them from leaving.
JR never figured that when the body was found in the house, that the residents of that house would be suspects, even if there was a RN.

 

[coloradokares]

Colorado- I totally agree, though, with the concept that the Rs could have planned to leave the state BEFORE her body was found. I believe they thought that the police would simply leave after viewing the RN and taking some notes, and they'd be left alone while the police searched for the kidnapper. They would have arranged their flight (possibly without telling anyone in Boulder), fled to Atlanta, eventually JBR's body would have been found, and they'd stonewall in Atlanta, with their lawyers.
BUT- police DIDN'T leave. They stayed. All day. And as JR realized they had no intention of leaving them alone, and in fact had overheard JR's plans to leave and stopped it, he realized he had to abandon the plan and bring her up himself.

Exactly. What I dont understand is how they thought the police were going to just let them leave for Atlanta. They could not have been that delusional?

 

[DeeDee249]

Exactly. What I dont understand is how they thought the police were going to just let them leave for Atlanta. They could not have been that delusional?

Not delusional. Just not aware of what would actually happen. They were wealthy and well-known members of the community with powerful friends. They were used getting their way, especially JR. I believe they never thought they'd be prevented from leaving that day.
They'd leave- police would search again and find her. Or, perhaps they even thought they'd get one of their toadies (Aunt P?) to go back and (shudders at the thought) "find" her. Maybe they'd let them in on her whereabouts, maybe not. Maybe they'd simply tell them to search EVERY room, specifically mentioning the wineceller and the latch on the door, and the unwary accomplice then discovers dead JBR, looking even MORE horrible than she did when brought up the previous day. Eventually, the tell-tale odor of decay would have been noticed as soon as you went in the house, even from the wineceller, which was in a remote location, but not air-tight.

 

[Solace]

Not delusional. Just not aware of what would actually happen. They were wealthy and well-known members of the community with powerful friends. They were used getting their way, especially JR. I believe they never thought they'd be prevented from leaving that day.
They'd leave- police would search again and find her. Or, perhaps they even thought they'd get one of their toadies (Aunt P?) to go back and (shudders at the thought) "find" her. Maybe they'd let them in on her whereabouts, maybe not. Maybe they'd simply tell them to search EVERY room, specifically mentioning the wineceller and the latch on the door, and the unwary accomplice then discovers dead JBR, looking even MORE horrible than she did when brought up the previous day. Eventually, the tell-tale odor of decay would have been noticed as soon as you went in the house, even from the wineceller, which was in a remote location, but not air-tight.

Even if you are use to getting your way, it is pretty outrageous to think that the police are going to let you leave town when your daughter was JUST FOUND dead in the basement. Even for the Ramseys that is outrageous. I think he was trying it to get away and hopefully get as far away as possible. I really think if they could have they would have left the country. Definitely. Also, didn't they ask Pam to make sure she got their passports.

I think their lawyers probably persuaded them to not even think that way.

 

[JMO8778]

yes,PP did retrieve the passports,as well as their personal mementos..which says to me they were seriously thinking of leaving the country..part of PP's real reason for the raid on the house,and not just for 'funeral clothes',(which of course they got from a dept. store anyway).They even contradict themselves on this in DOI.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yep- that's ANOTHER thing the Rs were given a pass on. NO one questioned the need to have Aunt P raid the house for "funeral clothes" when the Rs said that their clothes were donated by a local department store. I can see their wanting to have a pageant dress for JBR. After all, they wanted her to be forever a beauty queen, and to have America remember her that way. But that certainly wouldn't fill a patrol car. One dress on a hanger, tiara and shoes. That's it.
Sometimes I think that PR almost didn't mind having an eternal beauty queen that was dead rather than a former beauty queen who grew up to be either rebellious enough to want to stop or (horrors) not "beautiful" enough to win. She got to quit while she was ahead, in a manner of speaking. (Did that sound too harsh?)