"Who would leave children that young alone?"

[gord]

I agree with you, thats why I posted the timeline, so we can have a look at it.

Re Gerry saying someone could have been in the apartment, lets not gforget he states, he went in through the locked front door, he walked down the hall into the childrens room then into the toilet and exited through the unlocked patio doors, it only leaves GM/KM bedroom.
If the abductor was going in specifically for Madeleine, why would he have been in a different room, the only room that Gerry didnt check, possible but not that likely!

It might take a minute to hand someone out of a window, where is the other "someone", Jane Tanner was going in that direction, but she didnt see him/her?
Jeremy WIlkins, if your suggestion is right about being the end of conversation, was walking up to that area seconds later (potentially)

On top of that, the abductor still had to get in the apartment and then get out, all in the timeframe.

Gerry also says in his staement of teh 5th that he went through the patio door - not the front door as previous

 

[fabgod]

Ok I take your point about 11 monhs later - but it wasnt just a new interview - it was to go over all her statemnents - The LP had her original statemnent as well . To save me looking again have you got a link I can check on the Portugese statemenents

I searched them all seperately, but there seemed to be two that were fairly accurate and not filled with comment from the poster or translator


Both mccannfiles
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm
Seems to be the best i that the actual statement is available to the side, I could only check times and names against it as I dont read Portuguese.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id261.html#tap3
just to see if there was any real difference from the first one really.

Just put the M Oldfield ones up for an example

 

[gord]

Thanks Fabgood

The issue I have with some of these statements is that t there is a lot of " around 21 00 " or around 10.00pm - it is hardly a detailed time line

anyway let me have a look at them

Also the LP were fully aware of exactly what Tannera and Oldfield had said earlier . I really think that they would have hammered the point about timings.

 

[fabgod]

Thanks Fabgood

The issue I have with some of these statements is that t there is a lot of " around 21 00 " or around 10.00pm - it is hardly a detailed time line

anyway let me have a look at them

Also the LP were fully aware of exactly what Tannera and Oldfield had said earlier . I really think that they would have hammered the point about timings.

YOu are right, the LP should know what they are doing, (unless its all a global conspiracy for what, I dont know)

 

[gord]

If the man sighted by JT was the abductor and he was in the apartment when Gerry was there he was a real risk taker because knowing that Gerry had just left the apartment he chose the escape route that would put him and Madeleine straight in Gerry's line of sight if he decided to linger on the path, which he did.

Of course they were risk takers - of all the things I have read about past abductions crimes that is unbelievable how it happened - how quicj it takes for a child to be there and then vanish - how brazen the people are who just walk into peoples homes

Ok my theory based on what we know.

The flat was being watched by two people who know the area and know the layout.

payne and Fiona arrive for Dinner at nine - or thereabouts Gerry leaves almost straight away to do his check as it had been half an hour - Tanner states that he had been gone for some time and she felt sh e shou do a check as it was her turn. She even made a joke about trying to persuade Russ - she then left at about 9.10

Now if she saw jez and Gerry chatting it would be nearer 9.15

I think this could have give a 7 minute window for the abductor to hand the child out of the window and then either leap out or go through the front door with child - it it was not locked or had a way of unlocking from inside

I reckon the abductor entered by patio - either after Matt had done his quick check or even after Gerry had left - he could have been in the Hotel side watching.

It doesnt take long to enter - open a window or door - lift a sleeping child and walk out - he wasnt exactly going to hang around and have a cup of tea

Even if it was a lone person it could still be done - It wasnt impossible - granted we are down to minutes and he nearly got caught - infact he did get seen

This is all assuming that it was Maddie that Tanner saw of course

 

[Donjeta]

Yes but the risk of being seen by any of the Tapas people would have been considerably smaller if the abductor had gone the other way, to the top left on the map, or parked in the car park and just packed Madeleine in the car.

Is the car park accessible to non-residents? Any cameras?

 

[gord]

Yes but the risk of being seen by any of the Tapas people would have been considerably smaller if the abductor had gone the other way, to the top left on the map, or parked in the car park and just packed Madeleine in the car.

Is the car park accessible to non-residents? Any cameras?

NO CCTV unfortunatley

My thoughts on that - to turn left was to walk back towards the residential area - more street lights and more chance maybe of bumping into peopel - who knows what the thiought process was.

To turn right was to walk towards a darker area of the road and then a more direct route out of town.

that side of the area was all from what I have read public area of the town

 

[brit1981]

As for risks. Abductors do take risks, for instance anyone could have seen the moors murderers acosting their victims, sarah payne was taken in broad daylight. In Denmark a couple of years ago there was an abduction that was incredibly risky - in broad daylight outside a school where there were lots of people picking up their children, an abductor ran up to a mother and grabbed her little boy straight from her arms, and ran off got into a car and was away. The descriptions given were terrible (the car was described as black, or blue, certainly dark and maybe an estate type). Now the kidnappers turned out to be students who wanted a ransom, and the child was found safe and well with them a couple of days later. But the point is they took a huge risk to abduct a child, much more so than any risk the abductor of madeleine took. If abductors wanted a risk free life they woudl not abduct in the first place.

as far as I am aware anyone could access the car park, and there was no cctv.

 

[brit1981]

I reckon the abductor entered by patio - either after Matt had done his quick check or even after Gerry had left - he could have been in the Hotel side watching.

I had always pictured the abductor (s) waiting on the road or car park side. Of course a better way would have been to hide on the path in front of the patio doors that ran the length of all the flats, perhaps even in the side paths. It was dark, and there was a lot of shubbery, who would have seen enough to be suspicios? that would make it easier for someone to see gerry leave, walk through the patio doors, take madeleine and walk out again. Perhaps they opened the window either as an escape, or to hand madeleine out.

 

[Donjeta]

If the abductor waited to enter until he saw Gerry leave it wouldn't explain why GM says the door was more ajar than he thought it should be.

 

[fabgod]

Yes but the risk of being seen by any of the Tapas people would have been considerably smaller if the abductor had gone the other way, to the top left on the map, or parked in the car park and just packed Madeleine in the car.

Is the car park accessible to non-residents? Any cameras?

Good point,
car park open, no gate and no cameras virtually anywhere in PdL at that time.

On the two abductor idea, surely if there were two of them, they would have access to a car.
I find it really hard to believe that they would be brazen enough to walk down a street personally, the only way I can see that happening is if it was someone abit short of screws upstairs and they would have been quickly caught, which obviously didnt happen.

 

[brit1981]

If the abductor waited to enter until he saw Gerry leave it wouldn't explain why GM says the door was more ajar than he thought it should be.

It could easily be that the door just swung open a little bit more, perhaps when the patio door was opened. Or there is always the possibility that the abductor did enter before gerry, and was still in the flat (one could hid eunder beds, in cupboards etc). The thing is when one is in a urgent situation like this every single thing suddenly seems potentially significant, but sometimes things might not be. Doors do sometimes swing up a tiny bit more, children often do sleep through chaos etc

 

[Donjeta]

It could easily be that the door just swung open a little bit more, perhaps when the patio door was opened. Or there is always the possibility that the abductor did enter before gerry, and was still in the flat (one could hid eunder beds, in cupboards etc). The thing is when one is in a urgent situation like this every single thing suddenly seems potentially significant, but sometimes things might not be. Doors do sometimes swing up a tiny bit more, children often do sleep through chaos etc

It's possible. Draft could do it.

Kate McCann saying that the door was more ajar than it should have been is virtually meaningless to me because she wasn't there to see how Gerry had left the door after checking in.

 

[brit1981]

Good point,
car park open, no gate and no cameras virtually anywhere in PdL at that time.

On the two abductor idea, surely if there were two of them, they would have access to a car.
I find it really hard to believe that they would be brazen enough to walk down a street personally, the only way I can see that happening is if it was someone abit short of screws upstairs and they would have been quickly caught, which obviously didnt happen.

Car could have been parked just down the street a few metres. If someone parked in the car park, got out went to the flat, and came back out with a child and drove off then someone who saw could easily be suspicious. But if they parked a bit away, and just walked then all anyone woudl see is someone walking in, and coming back out with a child which would nto be so suspicious as people were walkign about with children, and people probably did leave their children in friends flats so they could share babysitters etc. But most of the holidya makers woudl not have had cars. But i do not see two people using a car any more than one person. Given that so many people were collecting children from evening creche, a perosn walking with a child is not normally going to arouse suspicion at the time.

 

[fabgod]

I reckon the abductor entered by patio - either after Matt had done his quick check or even after Gerry had left - he could have been in the Hotel side watching.

I had always pictured the abductor (s) waiting on the road or car park side. Of course a better way would have been to hide on the path in front of the patio doors that ran the length of all the flats, perhaps even in the side paths. It was dark, and there was a lot of shubbery, who would have seen enough to be suspicios? that would make it easier for someone to see gerry leave, walk through the patio doors, take madeleine and walk out again. Perhaps they opened the window either as an escape, or to hand madeleine out.

Its hard to work out in the aerly interviews, which way Jeremy Wilkins was coming from when he met Gerry McCann.
The only 2 choices are
1 up the road past the entrance to the Tapas restaurant
2.Down the path that you are mentioning, between the pool area and the apartments.
If its 2 then that option is gone.

How could an abductor have walked in through the patio doors though, Gerry McCann states that he left via the doors it opens onto the balcony which is little more than a metre deep and then down the seps to where he met Wilkins, It would be impossible to get in, unless he was already in when Gerry McCann made his check, but Im not believing that the only room he didnt access was the room the abductor was in,
Theres chance and then theres unbelievable

 

[gord]

Good point,
car park open, no gate and no cameras virtually anywhere in PdL at that time.

On the two abductor idea, surely if there were two of them, they would have access to a car.
I find it really hard to believe that they would be brazen enough to walk down a street personally, the only way I can see that happening is if it was someone abit short of screws upstairs and they would have been quickly caught, which obviously didnt happen.

I think for sure that there was a car . Listen we are all just theorising here . Maybe they didn not want to drive the car strauight into Town proper - hence turning right and walking away from the main residential area - it was darker and a car could have been parked in a darker area a few yards up the road. Pnce the guy was out of the visual of the Tapas part it was safer - it was dark . Of course the main risj was getting in and out without being seen.

I need to check the statements - when Matthew went to chivvy people up at 8,45 - he then went to do a check - di he do a check only on hios own children or did he quickly look into Maddy as well, ?

 

[gord]

Its hard to work out in the aerly interviews, which way Jeremy Wilkins was coming from when he met Gerry McCann.
The only 2 choices are
1 up the road past the entrance to the Tapas restaurant
2.Down the path that you are mentioning, between the pool area and the apartments.
If its 2 then that option is gone.

How could an abductor have walked in through the patio doors though, Gerry McCann states that he left via the doors it opens onto the balcony which is little more than a metre deep and then down the seps to where he met Wilkins, It would be impossible to get in, unless he was already in when Gerry McCann made his check, but Im not believing that the only room he didnt access was the room the abductor was in,
Theres chance and then theres unbelievable

Fabgood the entrance to the Patio Door is inside the gate . From what I have read Gerry left by the Patio and the left the gate and met Jez furtherv down the road towards the Tapas reception If abductor had been in the gate side he could have easil snuck in the Patio as soon as Gerry had gone through the gate

 

[fabgod]

It could easily be that the door just swung open a little bit more, perhaps when the patio door was opened. Or there is always the possibility that the abductor did enter before gerry, and was still in the flat (one could hid eunder beds, in cupboards etc). The thing is when one is in a urgent situation like this every single thing suddenly seems potentially significant, but sometimes things might not be. Doors do sometimes swing up a tiny bit more, children often do sleep through chaos etc

So the abductor is in the apartment and getting ready to take Madeleine, he hasnt yet done anything to the windows, (if he ever does)
He hears someone coming and in the seconds available he finds a cupboard that he can fit into in the dark in an unknown layout?


Or he hides under a bed,
scroll down to " Interior of 5A bedroom where Madeleine slept"
here, http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html

there is no chance, unless the abductor was vertically challenged, which we know he wasnt according to Tanners sighting.

 

[fabgod]

Fabgood the entrance to the Patio Door is inside the gate . From what I have read Gerry left by the Patio and the left the gate and met Jez furtherv down the road towards the Tapas reception If abductor had been in the gate side he could have easil snuck in the Patio as soon as Gerry had gone through the gate

Have a look here

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id21.html
scroll down to "route to the unblocked patio"

From what I can find, the patio is there at the top of the stairs,
It runs directly on to the street where Tanner and Wilkins both said Gerry McCann and Jeremy Wilkins were talking.
The map Tanner made shows them at the side of the apartment, so are we going to believe that an abductor will slide open a patio door less than 10 feet away from Gerry Mccanns head?

 

[fabgod]

I think for sure that there was a car . Listen we are all just theorising here . Maybe they didn not want to drive the car strauight into Town proper - hence turning right and walking away from the main residential area - it was darker and a car could have been parked in a darker area a few yards up the road. Pnce the guy was out of the visual of the Tapas part it was safer - it was dark . Of course the main risj was getting in and out without being seen.

I need to check the statements - when Matthew went to chivvy people up at 8,45 - he then went to do a check - di he do a check only on hios own children or did he quickly look into Maddy as well, ?

Matthew Oldfield and Rachael left their appartment at 8.45, he went to find the paynes around 9, he said at some point that he saw them but Diane /webster says he definitely didnt.

He did the check by standing at the side of both his window and madeleines bedroom window

Its all there in the timeline i put up earlier, i've changed nothing