"Who would leave children that young alone?"

[Donjeta]

Gawd - promised myself not get involved in these circular discussions !!

Donjeta I am a bit confused on what you are saying - are you saying that it becomes illegal when something bad happens ,. ? ie if unneccesary suffering happens then it is child neglect.

So if I let my 12 year old walk to school and she is run over - is that child neglect as I have exposed her to unnecessary suffering.

Should Tia's Sharp mother be prosecuted now because allowing her to stay with the grandmother and boyfriend led to her death - ie it was not illegal but once the girl was killed then - it was ? Tia was still a child

Unless you stay with your child 24/7 - accidents or worse can happen unfortunaley. The police of both Portugal nor UK prosecuted the Mcanns for child neglect - their form of babysitting was deemed legal ....... what was illegal was the person or persons who took her - that is where I focuss my thoughts in this forum - trying to find out what happened - who dun it ? Nt demonising the parents does not help solve the mystery

The law I linked says,

A person may be convicted of an offence under this section— .
(a)notwithstanding that actual suffering or injury to health, or the liklihood of actual suffering or injury to health, was obviated by the action of another person;

The way I understand this bit says that actual injury taking place is not necessary for a prosecutable crime to have happened.


I don't really know the ins and outs of the Tia Sharpe case. I suppose if it is known to be a very dangerous environment and it is very likely that a child would come to harm staying with a relative and knowing that the parents do nothing it could be worthy of charges sometimes. Say, if they let their child move in a meth lab or live with a known violent sexual offender. (Not saying that meth labs or violent SO's have anything to do with TS case.) But sometimes the courts even give the custody to a dangerous parent and there is nothing much that the other one can do legally about it, and it's not like everything can be foreseen.

However, it does not take clairvoyant ability to know that small toddlers are better off supervised than alone.

Regarding children and traffic accidents, IMO it could be neglect sometimes with children who are not mature enough to navigate safely in traffic. Accidents happen to adults too, so no one of us is completely safe, and not everything can be prevented even if the adult is there.

 

[brit1981]

Donjeta,
I think people have to accept that not every country has laws that are the same as their country's laws, otherwise it gets a borderline racist i.e well in my country we do this so other countries should do the same etc.
What the mccanns did would not be considered neglect in a Portuguese or UK law. They did not intend madeleine would be abducted, and they could not reasonably have forseen she would be abducted. By your standards people who let ten year olds walk to school should be prosecuted because there is always the risk of abduction however tiny.

 

[Donjeta]

Abduction it is not considered unreasonable to not consider abduction a risk, and that is the basis of all law in the UK, what is reasonable. In Portugal it would go even further and say they had to have intended that leaving her would have resulted in her abduction. If we made anythign where abduction could even unreasonably be seen as a risk we would ban children from doing most things. I think more children are abducted on the way to school or walking about with friends then from their beds. But we do not rush around arresting people who let ten year olds walk alone because it is not reasonable to assume they will be abducted. Do you think parents who let their child walk to school should be arrested because their child is at risk of abduction or harm coming to them?

Besides you can go on about it all you like, but the mccanns broke no law in Portugal and no law in the UK, and it really does not matter if it is illegal or considered negelct in other countries.

You know, you're absolutely right, I actually agree with you for once. It's not reasonable to expect parents to do all their decisions based on stranger danger because the children would miss out on lot of good stuff too for something that might never happen anyway.

It still doesn't change the fact that small toddlers are not mentally capable of handling being alone and acting in an appropriate manner if there is an emergency and thus they are at risk of suffering, other than being abducted. There is nothing good that they may gain from being left alone.

I'll quit now. I already said before that I would but this time I will.
Everybody knows by now that I think small toddlers are never to be left alone and any laws that allow this practice are criminal.

 

[fabgod]

may I suggest a timeline thread

Using what criteria, statements?

 

[brit1981]

Using what criteria, statements?

good as place as any. I used statements from non-tapas nine, but also included those from tapas nine along with thoughts on why they would lie if they were lying. I do not think it is enough to say they could be lying, the reaosn they lied as well as who asked them to, when and where they could have been asked to lie should be considered.

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I know so many people, a lot, that would leave a sleeping child to run across the street to a neighbor's house for a half hour - even here in the good old' USA. Every country has their own customs & set of rules, some more lax than others. I remember years ago my best friend live on Governor's Island in NYC. We were 7 & 8 years old catching the ferry & going to Manhattan alone without a care in the world. There was no Internet back then, no sex on tv, heck they didn't even say damn on tv - so the worries weren't as in your face as they are now. Today the laws are more strict. Some years back, a family was visiting NY & the parents left their children outside to eat an adult dinner in peace, let the children sight see so to speak. The authorities intervened as these parents were going to be jailed & lose their children whom aren't even citizens nor spoke much English. Anyone remember this? Well the adults were proven innocent as their consulate got involved & proved it was customary or allowed in their country. For some reason I'm thinking they were from the Middke East but not sure. The point I'm trying to make is that we in the YS can't really judge based on our customs & set of laws when judging citizens of another country that were visiting yet another foreign land with its own set of rules. In all honesty, there's so many good points by so many on this board. Maybe the break down in communication is due to the rules of allowance & disallowance of a couple different countries which have a different set of rules.

... Just trying to help ...

 

[Jersey*Girl]

I wonder about their passports or travel person's. Maddy's eye is rare. That could fetch a lot of money just for her being so different. I wonder if the people that processed their passports were checked out. I also wonder if the people from the airline and/or airport were checked out. Seems if she was taken then it's bc she was scoped out. Personally, I always thought she was scouted.

 

[badhorsie]

Using what criteria, statements?

How about the timeline devised by the people involved?

 

[brit1981]

god that person had bad writing (although so do I to be honest).
I think we should look at what they said, but my first por tof call woudl eb those outside tapas nine and then build on what the tapas nine stated by looking at could they be lying/why they woudl be lying/when and where they were asked to lie etc. I do think the when and where they were asked to lie is important as I cannot see people having a talk about lying to cover up a child's death and the dumping of her body around the dinner table in a small restuarant where they are likely to be overheard. Plus it would mean all nine being involved.

 

[Tink]

Why the emphasis on all shutters being down??

Tink

 

[brit1981]

Why the emphasis on all shutters being down??

Tink

because the shutters were up at ten, so if they have a time when the shutters were down they can narrow the window of opportunity that someone had to open them.

 

[Donjeta]

I know so many people, a lot, that would leave a sleeping child to run across the street to a neighbor's house for a half hour - even here in the good old' USA. Every country has their own customs & set of rules, some more lax than others. I remember years ago my best friend live on Governor's Island in NYC. We were 7 & 8 years old catching the ferry & going to Manhattan alone without a care in the world. There was no Internet back then, no sex on tv, heck they didn't even say damn on tv - so the worries weren't as in your face as they are now. Today the laws are more strict. Some years back, a family was visiting NY & the parents left their children outside to eat an adult dinner in peace, let the children sight see so to speak. The authorities intervened as these parents were going to be jailed & lose their children whom aren't even citizens nor spoke much English. Anyone remember this? Well the adults were proven innocent as their consulate got involved & proved it was customary or allowed in their country. For some reason I'm thinking they were from the Middke East but not sure. The point I'm trying to make is that we in the YS can't really judge based on our customs & set of laws when judging citizens of another country that were visiting yet another foreign land with its own set of rules. In all honesty, there's so many good points by so many on this board. Maybe the break down in communication is due to the rules of allowance & disallowance of a couple different countries which have a different set of rules.

... Just trying to help ...

Cultural relativism is fine and dandy sometimes but I think it simplifies the issue somewhat. Children are more or less the same everywhere and I believe not everybody in the UK is as blind to the risks as to make it just a cultural variation in the rules.

This is a UK resource saying small children are not to be left alone, not even for a few minutes:

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/help-and-ad...ildren-home-alone/home-alone-pdf_wdf72909.pdf

• Never leave your baby or
young child home alone,
not even for a few minutes, regardless
of whether they are sleeping or awake.
The risks and dangers are too great.

Eileen “It is never OK to leave
your baby alone in the house,
not even for a few minutes.
What if she had woken up just
after you left? For a baby, 15
minutes is a long time to feel
abandoned and left alone to
cry. The risks are dangerous
too – what if you were delayed
or your baby was sick?”

Eileen “It is never safe to leave your young
children home alone at night, even if they are
asleep. What if they suddenly woke from a bad
dream and came looking for you? As a single
parent, finding time for you may be difficult. Why
not try to find another parent in your area and
arrange to take turns to babysit?”

 

[brit1981]

donjeta,
Once again it is not against the law to leave sleeping children alone for half an hour when you are just fifty metres away. In fact one can be further, as the listening services do not have people staioned within fifty metres of the rooms. You may not like it, you may think the Uk and Portugal should change their laws, but it is legal. I do not like americna gun laws, I think they are asking for trouble and it is beyond me why people woudl chose to live in a state where it is easy to buy weapons. But I woudl not go onto a thread about a shooting victim, and start harping on about how their parents were wrong to live there and how it shoudl have been illegal etc. It is about respecting the cultures and laws of different countries, and not getting in a tizz because other countries do not ban things you do not like.

 

[Donjeta]

Please read the post again, I didn't say anything about it being against the law, or changing the laws in that post nor did I say anything derogatory about the UK culture or get in a tizz because they don't ban the things I don't like. On the contrary, I very respectfully quoted a respectable resource from the United Kingdom that explains that it is dangerous to leave small children alone, effectively banning exactly what I'd like them to.

I understand if people feel that they have to disagree with everything I write on purpose but it helps to read what I actually wrote before disagreeing.

The point is, it is not that all the people in the USA think it's not OK to leave small children alone and all the people in the UK think it is. In fact there are people in the UK who recommend the very same rules I do.

 

[brit1981]

so what is the point of repeatedly posting you think it is wrong? Are you going to go onto threads about children who were murdered or abducted on their way home froj school, and start pointing out you think the parents were wrong? What is the point about sitting berating parents of a missing child? Its mean spirited at best.

 

[fabgod]

god that person had bad writing (although so do I to be honest).
I think we should look at what they said, but my first por tof call woudl eb those outside tapas nine and then build on what the tapas nine stated by looking at could they be lying/why they woudl be lying/when and where they were asked to lie etc. I do think the when and where they were asked to lie is important as I cannot see people having a talk about lying to cover up a child's death and the dumping of her body around the dinner table in a small restuarant where they are likely to be overheard. Plus it would mean all nine being involved.

It would make more sense to see if it was possible for Jane Tanners "sighting" to be timelined, everything hinges on that being Madeleine, eliminate or confirm that event and you go from there

 

[Donjeta]

Well, as long as there are people thinking that it's totally OK to leave small babies alone there are going to be babies who suffer because of it and people need to be waken up. A half an hour is a long time for a baby to die in a house fire.

I also make a lot of noise about harnessing babies in car seats and using bicycle helmets. You could possibly construe it as mean spiritedly berating the parents who didn't and had their child injured. I like to think that awareness about safety issues could save a child from being injured in the future.

 

[fabgod]

How about the timeline devised by the people involved?

So that's Gerry stimeline I take it?

It doesnt tally at all with the statements to Police on the 4th may 2007
There were hardly any of the tapas 9 at the Tapas restaurant at 8.45pm

Only Jane Tanner (8.30)
Gerry and Kate McCann (just after 8.30)
Matthew Oldfield and Rachael Oldfield left their appartment at (8.45)
Diane Webster Fiona Payne and David Payne were at their apartment until 9pm
Russell O Brien was at apartment until 9pm

Gerry McCann stated he left the tapas at around 9.05pm to go to apartment, other statements have him away from restaurant for 10 minutes.

Gerry McCanns walk would take around 2 minutes to get to the front door which he says he opened using his key, then he looked at children, then used the toilet then left by the patio unlocked door to be met at the bottom of the steps by Jeremy Wilkins.
GM and JW spoke for 3 to 5 minutes and were passed at this time by Jane Tanner who was going to do her check (she states every 15 minutes)

I will post the timeline in a minute

 

[gord]

It would make more sense to see if it was possible for Jane Tanners "sighting" to be timelined, everything hinges on that being Madeleine, eliminate or confirm that event and you go from there

I actually went back and read Jane Tanners statements to Lecieister Police - It was good to go back and read what she said - aslo because it was in English - no bad tarnslation issues - it actual explained things a lot and was worth going back to see what she said as opposed to rumour and internet myth.

It is pretty crucial as she could have witnesed the abduction - though who knows. but it does clarify a number of issues that keep cropping up about her lying !! - If you read it in its entirety it paints a pretty vivid picture of the week .

It goes through the sighting in accurate detail - her thoughts and what happened . It sorts out the Jez/Gerry position and also the timings

 

[brit1981]

Well, as long as there are people thinking that it's totally OK to leave small babies alone there are going to be babies who suffer because of it and people need to be waken up. A half an hour is a long time for a baby to die in a house fire.

I also make a lot of noise about harnessing babies in car seats and using bicycle helmets. You could possibly construe it as mean spiritedly berating the parents who didn't and had their child injured. I like to think that awareness about safety issues could save a child from being injured in the future.

And as long as people do not bother to ensure their children get to school safely there will be children come to harm, but I woudl never be so mean spirited to harp on and on about how the parents are responsible for the harm