2008.11.13 - 11.14 LP J Blanchard Park Search #2

[NJ Lawyer]

Here's what bugs me. I know there are some cruel people who might kill an animal by putting it in a bag, weighing it down, and letting the aligators have at it.

But a person who loves a pet would not *dispense* of it in a dirty body of water. If you are attached enough to a pet to care about their favorite toys you wouldn't weigh it down in a bag with bricks and let the water creatures consume it. You would more likely bury it. How could you stand the thought of your furry family member being eaten by aligators? I don't buy it.

The toys are a red flag to me. They don't fit into the equation. Am I making sense?

Discarding a live animal/pet is one thing, but I think there are plenty of folks (including me) who don't fuss over a pet once he/she is dead. I had a cat I adopted from a shelter - a 9 year old toothless, fat cat. That cat slept in my bed, was fed fresh fish for dinner, had every cat toy available, was pet so much I'm surprised her fur didn't chaffe and basked in all the attention I gave her. She was Queen of the House. I spent thousands on stuff like ultra sound biopsies and medication when she developed a liver disorder. She died in my arms. But when she was gone, I got in my car and chucked her out the car window into a wooded area in the middle of nowhere, throwing her toys after her and yelling "I love you!" Surely her body was eaten by animals. I have no guilt. My memories and over 1000 pictures I took of her is my memorial - not a grave.

BTW....If a family goes out and eat some fried chicken and the kids have a Happy Meal at the park and then the whole lot is thrown into a bag and into the river....there's your animal bone fragments and toys. It could even be a meal that is stuffed into a bag while in one's car and the driver also throws into the bag junk inside the car (including crayons and toys). Stuff gets mashed together and chucked. Diver is not sure if the bricks were in the bag. Anyhow, I could see someone adding a brick to a bag of junk that's been sitting around in a car for a while and tossing it into a river.

 

[whiteangora]

That would be "Spyder" aka "Chick Magnet".

Thanks! You got that right......chick magnet. Is he with LP?

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Question for those knowledgeable about water searches...

Can they drag a river similar to how they drag a lake when looking for remains? I know the divers are using nets but just wondering if boats and dragging equipment could cover a larger area faster and/or is it feasible in a river.

I have been on a few water searches. You drag the lake looking for drown person with a grappling iron. That is a thing which has what looks like a really big treble fishing hook. You drag and actually hook the person which in this case would not work at all. It will not hook bones. The problem also is lakes are full of trash, old bikes, cars, etc. and if you hook one of them many times you loose the grappling iron because it is hung on something or even under a rock. (depending on the terrain) It is like putting an anchor down in a boat which you can't get loose under a rock or things.

Now they are normally used in conjunction with sonar and/or depth finders.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Thanks! You got that right......chick magnet. Is he with LP?

He is a blackwater diver - His name is Spyder Dalton and he is HOT!!

 

[Chilly Willy]

Fox now saying "animal bone fragments"...

When FBI and Orange County Sheriff’s Deputies arrived to the scene yesterday, they immediately began to analyze the discovery and soon determined the contents of the bag were animal bone fragments and several toys.

According to Captain Angelo Nieves of the Orange County Sheriff's Office, the findings are being considered property found, not evidence.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/p...n=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=1.1.1

I don't put a lot of faith in this one article saying that what was found was animal bone fragments. For one thing, it's not at all the way it happened, the FBI and OCSD did not arrive and 'immediately' determine that they were animal bone fragments. Has any other news agency reported this? Perhaps with a quote or statement from the FBI?

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Discarding a live animal/pet is one thing, but I think there are plenty of folks (including me) who don't fuss over a pet once he/she is dead. I had a cat I adopted from a shelter - a 9 year old toothless, fat cat. That cat slept in my bed, was fed fresh fish for dinner, had every cat toy available, was pet so much I'm surprised her fur didn't chaffe and basked in all the attention I gave her. She was Queen of the House. I spent thousands on stuff like ultra sound biopsies and medication when she developed a liver disorder. She died in my arms. But when she was gone, I got in my car and chucked her out the car window into a wooded area in the middle of nowhere, throwing her toys after her and yelling "I love you!" Surely her body was eaten by animals. I have no guilt. My memories and over 1000 pictures I took of her is my memorial - not a grave.

BTW....If a family goes out and eat some fried chicken and the kids have a Happy Meal at the park and then the whole lot is thrown into a bag and into the river....there's your animal bone fragments and toys. It could even be a meal that is stuffed into a bag while in one's car and the driver also throws into the bag junk inside the car (including crayons and toys). Stuff gets mashed together and chucked. Diver is not sure if the bricks were in the bag. Anyhow, I could see someone adding a brick to a bag of junk that's been sitting around in a car for a while and tossing it into a river.

Most people don't carry 55 gal garbage bags in their car to dump things in a river to clean out their car. Just saying.....

 

[TexasLil]

I have been on a few water searches. You drag the lake looking for drown person with a grappling iron. That is a thing which has what looks like a really big treble fishing hook. You drag and actually hook the person which in this case would not work at all. It will not hook bones. The problem also is lakes are full of trash, old bikes, cars, etc. and if you hook one of them many times you loose the grappling iron because it is hung on something or even under a rock. (depending on the terrain) It is like putting an anchor down in a boat which you can't get loose under a rock or things.

Now they are normally used in conjunction with sonar and/or depth finders.

Thanks Turbo. I thought the equipment was much different and explains why they have divers and nets in the river.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

I don't put a lot of faith in this one article saying that what was found was animal bone fragments. For one thing, it's not at all the way it happened, the FBI and OCSD did not arrive and 'immediately' determine that they were animal bone fragments. Has any other news agency reported this? Perhaps with a quote or statement from the FBI?

The look a like bone (driftwood) the diver showed on video (which I can't find now) would have to be a large dog bone. It was not shaped right for a dog, btw. It had a joint and he even moved the joint back and forth on that video.

 

[curiositycat]

Well, my question for today is "Why, oh Why oh, haven't OCSO or FBI dragged those rivers, ect themselves." Where have they searched for Caylee? Landfills? Not that I know of. They must have something we don't know about. An ace in the hole witness...or how strong is there case really?
This is a total turn around in attitude for me. I have supported LE from day one but good grief...what are they doing? Wouldn't their case be much stronger if they had a body?

 

[SuziQ]

The bone the diver showed on video (which I can't find now) would have to be a large dog bone. It was not shaped right for a dog, btw. It had a joint and he even moved the joint back and forth on that video.

IIRC, that was a piece of wood the diver showed to use an example of what they can find and how it can resemble a little leg, joint and all.

 

[NJ Lawyer]

Most people don't carry 55 gal garbage bags in their car to dump things in a river to clean out their car. Just saying.....

I have a box of jumbo size green plastic bags (the ones used for leaves). When I'm waiting in my car for something (like for my daughter to get out of school or something) I fill up the bag with stuff in my car - paperwork from school, last night's dinner from Wendy's drive through, stuff that my daughter drops (like from birthday goody bags)** and within a week the bag almost always contains food remnants and at least one happy meal toy. I don't ultimately throw the bag in a river. But it often sits in my car for a few days until I find a spot for it (usually a gas station's big garbage can). Could I see someone tossing a bag like that in a river? Yes. But I definitely have those big plastic bags in my car always. I've seen others with a small box of plastic garbage bags in their cars too.

**I know, I know, I am a bad recycler when it comes to stuff in my car.

 

[Chilly Willy]

The bone the diver showed on video (which I can't find now) would have to be a large dog bone. It was not shaped right for a dog, btw. It had a joint and he even moved the joint back and forth on that video.

That was not a bone, it was a piece of driftwood. He was demonstrating how driftwood could be mistaken for a bone.

 

[jademonkey]

IIRC No one said they were CHILDREN'S toys. They could have been the bones of someone's pet dog and the DOG'S toys, right?

If it's the bag of toys the diver showed on TV last night, it looked like a McDonalds toy, barbie of some sort. Small toys, not the type a pet would use. Don't know if that is the same toys or not though.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Thanks Turbo. I thought the equipment was much different and explains why they have divers and nets in the river.

I am not a blackwater diver, not even certified for cave diving so take what I say with a grain of salt.........

I do know many blackwater divers and if I understand their methods correctly, they can see NOTHING at all in the water. If you put your hand in front of your mask, you could hardly see it. I understand they work entirely off of "feel." They are used in my area in the lakes because of the heavy mud. There is "squishy" mud in places 3 or 4 ft. deep and I assume that silt in that area is the same way, just easier to move around. I would guess when you start working around in silt even if you had any visibility before you would lose it like you do with mud when it is stirred up.

The divers I know are so skilled they can even tell a can from other things. They are always working with their hands, so shapes, bags, etc are easily identified by them. I assume that is why when they felt the toys, and started moving the silt they realized all of it was in a bag.

From what I saw yesterday on Murt, those divers are very good and did everything according to procedure. I doubt LE has any better ones. Of couse many times the same divers are sub-contracted by LE to search. It is just a matter of who writes the check.

 

[Lili]

IIRC, that was a piece of wood the diver showed to use an example of what they can find and how it can resemble a little leg, joint and all.

You are correct. The diver used it as an example to show that in murky water this may have felt like an arm/elbow or leg/knee joint.

 

[cocowiley]

If it's the bag of toys the diver showed on TV last night, it looked like a McDonalds toy, barbie of some sort. Small toys, not the type a pet would use. Don't know if that is the same toys or not though.

there was a little barbie doll in the bag, smaller than a regular sized doll but bigger than say, a polly pocket sized doll..only time my dogs ever played with barbies is when they were chewing the arms and heads off.
as a rule i don't think people give their dogs barbies to play with.

eta, sorry i meant to quote the person jademonkey was replying to about the toys in the bag possibly being dog toys.

 

[Themis]

Discarding a live animal/pet is one thing, but I think there are plenty of folks (including me) who don't fuss over a pet once he/she is dead. I had a cat I adopted from a shelter - a 9 year old toothless, fat cat. That cat slept in my bed, was fed fresh fish for dinner, had every cat toy available, was pet so much I'm surprised her fur didn't chaffe and basked in all the attention I gave her. She was Queen of the House. I spent thousands on stuff like ultra sound biopsies and medication when she developed a liver disorder. She died in my arms. But when she was gone, I got in my car and chucked her out the car window into a wooded area in the middle of nowhere, throwing her toys after her and yelling "I love you!" Surely her body was eaten by animals. I have no guilt. My memories and over 1000 pictures I took of her is my memorial - not a grave.

BTW....If a family goes out and eat some fried chicken and the kids have a Happy Meal at the park and then the whole lot is thrown into a bag and into the river....there's your animal bone fragments and toys. It could even be a meal that is stuffed into a bag while in one's car and the driver also throws into the bag junk inside the car (including crayons and toys). Stuff gets mashed together and chucked. Diver is not sure if the bricks were in the bag. Anyhow, I could see someone adding a brick to a bag of junk that's been sitting around in a car for a while and tossing it into a river.

Ah HA! Pretty good advocacy, but not buying it here. The shamrock. Just like the Caylee is alive believers had all kinds of alternative explanations, but working that decomp, death banded hair, DNA, cadaver dogs, chloroform and the totality of the evidence just didn't fit in there.
BTW, your local animal shelter will dispose of the body of a pet for a very small fee well within a good advocate's budget. Fewer diseases. Toys can go in the dumpster or be cleaned up for a shelter animal. Cleaner environment. I've been to NJ, about 25 years ago. Fifty gallon petroleum product drums were floating in ponds visible from the roads. Not good. I hope now, 35 years after passing basic environmental laws, the good people of Florida are not routinely using their waterways as garbage dumps. So, this would be very unusual, a heavy duty, extra strength, 55 gal. black garbage bag with toys like McDonald's Happy Meals (where Caylee liked to go), a shamrock like the one in the picture of Casey, evidence of animal activity and fragments of something that somewhat experienced people say looked like bones but an upset LE said was "rocks" but took them into evidence and local posters say there are no rocks in the area (they buy garden rocks at nurseries). Not 1 but 2 bricks and KC was borrowing a shovel on June 18th to dig in their backyard where the As do have some kind of pavers brick(block). I know run-on sentence. Relevancy should be left to the prosecutor and defense to duke it out.

 

[SailorMoon]

OH my...Dennis Martin is directly employed by Nejame!! whoa....Murt just reported.

 

[Themis]

OH my...Dennis Miller is directly employed by Nejame!! whoa....Murt just reported.

Thanks for the information, SailorMoon. Pieces are comin' together.

 

[TimeWillTell]

OH my...Dennis Miller is directly employed by Nejame!! whoa....Murt just reported.

WOW! That explains a lot!