2009.11.19 Defense Files Motion suggesting Kronk as Killer #4

[notthatsmart]

BBM


Brilliant is a subjective term.......the defense must exhaust ALL avenues in hopes that one sticks. I have used that term before and realized that a more appropriate term would be "clever".....perhaps even "diabolical" (where have I heard that term?) Have you read any of my info on AL and her strategy, method, routine, MO.......?? This is her plan, it's what she teaches, it's protocol. Nothing about this is brilliant...just routine. AL has said.."if you don't like it....file a motion".....YES A DIRECT QUOTE. Having attorneys and a Judge in my family, as well as my social circle......I feel confident that any of them would agree that you throw it out there because it just may work. I think that given the "desire and motive"...that the defense could file a similar motion about any number of players in this saga with other circumstantial evidence they have manipulated or interpreted to their benefit. If RK "did it"...as in killed Caylee....I'll eat my laptop. Getting the whole truth means exploring all threads and considering options in addition to SODDI.

Well, like I said, I am not here to defend the defense. However, this attitude that anything the defense does is just to throw out and hope it sticks is just opinion. The defense did attach a lot of info and obviously worked hard to come up with those interviews.

As far as they could file a similiar motion of any number of players would have creedence to it, but they haven't done that that I know of. I hope the Judge takes this seriously and considers Kc right to a fair trial and allows this into evidence. If Rk had nothing to do with it, then there is nothing to worry about. He said it himself, he is not worried.

 

[Just Jayla]

Well if you are a Lawyer and I am not. You would know a lot more than me. In the motion there is plenty of info that ties Rk to duct tape. There is plenty of info that shows Rk knew where the body was before he showed it to police.
There is plenty of info that shows many searched the area after Aug 11th and did not see the body. Not sure of the definition of circumstantial evidence. Maybe you could help me out? thanks

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see him being tied to Henkel duct tape because someone in an inadmissbale, illegally gathered interview said he used duct tape on her-Am I missing evidence that he had purchased Henkel, or had it in his home/truck?

Circumstantial Evidence:


a) Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence which leads to, but does not prove as specific conclusion. What evidence leads to RK? Evidence having it's own definition, and someone NOT seeing something is not evidence

b) Using circumstantial evidence is way of reasoning which draws probable conclusions from facts that are known. The know facts lead to conclusion that are a reasonable step from the know facts. For example, the statement: "When she came in her umbrella was dripping wet." implies but does not conclusively prove that she had been outside in the rain. What facts do we have that tie RK to this circumstance? Facts cannot be presented to a jury from illegally gained interviews with RK's exes.

c) Deductions regarding the topic of discussion can be drawn form related facts and information. They infer other facts which usually and reasonable follow from the available evidence. What part of Roy's presence infers that he knew any of this prior to the call? If we are to believe his co-worker, this was the first time RK was there

d) Circumstantial evidence consists of facts pointing in a particular direction-- facts that are in harmony with one side or another the hypothesis being analyzed, but standing alone this related evidence is not sufficient to draw any definite conclusions. What is the defense's hypothesis as to how RK captured, killed and hid Caylee?

e) Deductions and implication can be drawn form available data and information which is somewhat distant from, but relates to the topic of discussion. This is commonly relied upon when direct evidence is not available. Need more data from the defense, IMO, but not saying they cannot come up with something good

f) If you want a strict, legal definition, we refer you to Black Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, Page 221. There you'll find a rather lengthy definition of "circumstantial evidence."

 

[chefmom]

I still can't figure out why the defense needs to file motions and point the finger at Kronk, Jessie, Amy, or anyone else when JB has said from the beginning that he would tell us all what happened and we would all understand. Why not just tell us THAT?

 

[notthatsmart]

Back on topic. Do you have anything whatever that's factual that would support Kronk having put Caylee in a freezer for months? Anything at all?

No not at all. That was theory and I sure I stated that. By the way, who froze the snake to preserve it?

 

[BeanE]

Bold two: I am concerned about Kc's lies and inconsistencies. Most of the Lies and inconsistencies came from the interrogation out at Universal Studios. In that interview, they were all under the misconception that Caylee was last seen on June 9th. I am sure she was confused as well. Not sure you can prove someone lied when you were talking about a false date.

How does the June 9th date account for KC lying about working at Universal?

How does the June 9th date account for KC lying about attending Valencia college?

 

[RR0004]

Well, like I said, I am not here to defend the defense. However, this attitude that anything the defense does is just to throw out and hope it sticks is just opinion. The defense did attach a lot of info and obviously worked hard to come up with those interviews.

As far as they could file a similiar motion of any number of players would have creedence to it, but they haven't done that that I know of. I hope the Judge takes this seriously and considers Kc right to a fair trial and allows this into evidence. If Rk had nothing to do with it, then there is nothing to worry about. He said it himself, he is not worried.

He is not a suspect so I'd be very surprised if anything comes of this. It has nothing to do with "being worried". JMHO

PS...and yes, the defense has thrown out quite a bit..if you're looking for someone else because you don't see the hard proof...then perhaps it could be anyone.

 

[BeanE]

No not at all. That was theory and I sure I stated that. By the way, who froze the snake to preserve it?

Okay just wanted to confirm that. Thanks.

I bet you think Kronk put the snake in the freezer, don't you. ... Not.

ETA: Adding the linky dink for the snake NOT being put by Kronk in ANY freezer:

Mr. David Dean took the snake to his home and put it in his own freezer.

PDF page 12 line 1

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2009-05/46652688.pdf

 

[joypath]

Makes me wonder if the bones wouldn't hold some sort of trace of being frozen for a period of time...?

If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interupted by crystalization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similiar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entamalogical and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live!

 

[RR0004]

Bold one: I believe he was persistent in his calls. (3 calls that we know of)
I found it disturbing that he was not persistent once the police arrived on the scene.

Bold two: I am concerned about Kc's lies and inconsistencies. Most of the Lies and inconsistencies came from the interrogation out at Universal Studios. In that interview, they were all under the misconception that Caylee was last seen on June 9th. I am sure she was confused as well. Not sure you can prove someone lied when you were talking about a false date.

But your right, this thread is about Rk and his inconsistencies. We can't get to the truth of the matter if we flood it with a different part of the case.

All they have to do is investigate to clear up any inconsistencies. The SA should be confident and go ahead with a full investigation. That would clear up this whole mess and point the finger back to Kc. With this in the way, they can't keep their eye on the ball.

...and how do you know that he wasn't thoroughly investigated?

 

[chefmom]

If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interupted by crystalization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similiar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entamalogical and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live!

Yeah! What Joy said! :dance:

 

[RR0004]

If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interupted by crystalization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similiar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entamalogical and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live!

I'm impressed! LOL

 

[notthatsmart]

I am not a lawyer, but I don't see him being tied to Henkel duct tape because someone in an inadmissbale, illegally gathered interview said he used duct tape on her-Am I missing evidence that he had purchased Henkel, or had it in his home/truck?

Circumstantial Evidence:


a) Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence which leads to, but does not prove as specific conclusion. What evidence leads to RK? Evidence having it's own definition, and someone NOT seeing something is not evidence

b) Using circumstantial evidence is way of reasoning which draws probable conclusions from facts that are known. The know facts lead to conclusion that are a reasonable step from the know facts. For example, the statement: "When she came in her umbrella was dripping wet." implies but does not conclusively prove that she had been outside in the rain. What facts do we have that tie RK to this circumstance? Facts cannot be presented to a jury from illegally gained interviews with RK's exes.

c) Deductions regarding the topic of discussion can be drawn form related facts and information. They infer other facts which usually and reasonable follow from the available evidence. What part of Roy's presence infers that he knew any of this prior to the call? If we are to believe his co-worker, this was the first time RK was there

d) Circumstantial evidence consists of facts pointing in a particular direction-- facts that are in harmony with one side or another the hypothesis being analyzed, but standing alone this related evidence is not sufficient to draw any definite conclusions. What is the defense's hypothesis as to how RK captured, killed and hid Caylee?

e) Deductions and implication can be drawn form available data and information which is somewhat distant from, but relates to the topic of discussion. This is commonly relied upon when direct evidence is not available. [COLOR="red"]Need more data from the defense, IMO, but not saying they cannot come up with something good[/COLOR]

f) If you want a strict, legal definition, we refer you to Black Law Dictionary, Fifth Edition, Page 221. There you'll find a rather lengthy definition of "circumstantial evidence."

Bold 1 : I believe that Jill Kerley said he bragged about 100 mile an hour tape. Its in the motion.(henkel 200 degree tape is that type of tape)

Bold 2 and 3: What evidence? Duct tape, and having control of the body before showing it to police.

Bold 4: hence the motion. To get them into court to take sworn testimony.

Bold 5. Yes we need more data, but it is LE job. Hence the motion. MOO

 

[RR0004]

Bold one: Of course they do, this is a fact finding mission. That is why they are so confident. This motion was very bold. You know, be careful what you wish for. They are not afraid of the truth, or they wouldn't be making motions like this.

Bold two: 235000.00 is a lot of money. Perhaps the perp was willing to share.

Just speculating here and all of just my opinion.

Except that money was for an "alive" Caylee IIRC.

 

[RR0004]

Bold 1 : I believe that Jill Kerley said he bragged about 100 mile an hour tape. Its in the motion.(henkel 200 degree tape is that type of tape)

Bold 2 and 3: What evidence? Duct tape, and having control of the body before showing it to police.

Bold 4: hence the motion. To get them into court to take sworn testimony.

Bold 5. Yes we need more data, but it is LE job. Hence the motion. MOO

If she believed RK was involved, why not report it to LE?

 

[flourish]

Bold 1 : I believe that Jill Kerley said he bragged about 100 mile an hour tape. Its in the motion.(henkel 200 degree tape is that type of tape)

Bold 2 and 3: What evidence? Duct tape, and having control of the body before showing it to police.

Bold 4: hence the motion. To get them into court to take sworn testimony.

Bold 5. Yes we need more data, but it is LE job. Hence the motion. MOO

Do you have some evidence that "henkel 200 degree tape is that type of tape" ???
I've never heard that "100 mile an hour tape" and "henkel 200 degree tape" are actually the same thing...

ETA: Also, "having control of the body" ??? can you expand on what you're referring to here?

 

[sleutherontheside]

Well, like I said, I am not here to defend the defense. However, this attitude that anything the defense does is just to throw out and hope it sticks is just opinion. The defense did attach a lot of info and obviously worked hard to come up with those interviews.

As far as they could file a similiar motion of any number of players would have creedence to it, but they haven't done that that I know of. I hope the Judge takes this seriously and considers Kc right to a fair trial and allows this into evidence. If Rk had nothing to do with it, then there is nothing to worry about. He said it himself, he is not worried.

BBM...actually it's not my opinion. It comes from AL's mouth....so I consider it routine and fact not opinion. Her position is that if you don't like the evidence...file a motion about it. File a motion on everything....one out of (can't remember what number she used ) every ___ may get approved. Feel free to listen to the 3 plus hours of her lectures about "story telling and defender tools" at the link in this post.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4581777&postcount=798"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4581777&postcount=798[/ame]



That's how I was able to anticipate her plan. I share my opinion here often, but most of the time I have a reason for it and back it up with a link. The AL thread is closed, but I have a number of posts with AL quotes that I find worthy of notice. I did post specific quotes there but you must listen to the MP3 in its entirety to get the full effect. Like I said....this is her strategy and nothing more.... and certainly not brilliant. AND certainly not JB's doing.

 

[RR0004]

Let's face the obvious...it seems that if the defense had any proof that RK was involved they would have revealed it already ('cause they can't keep their mouth(s) shut). This is a legal maneuver to deflect attention away from their client. This has nothing to do with "truth"...this has to do with creating doubt. They're out to save Casey's life. That's their job. Someone posted that this is what AL does...files motion after motion after motion. Nothing different here IMO.

 

[notthatsmart]

If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interupted by crystalization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similiar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entamalogical and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live!

Off topic, but the botonist did this off of a picture and the defense is challenging the entamalogist. Saying to Tony Pipitone those were not coffin flys and we have experts ready to cross examine these people. Furthermore they suggested to Tony to do the same type of investigation with the Botonist report and the Entamalogy reports that you did with the Chloroform syringe , and you will find the same type of results.

So they are very confident that these reports will not fly with a jury.
So again, here I am again discussing other things than Rk. Sorry bots. Think I will get some sleep. Goodnight

 

[notthatsmart]

If she believed RK was involved, why not report it to LE?

I totally agree. But perhaps she is scared to death of him.

 

[Harmony 2]

If I may respond: the inner marrow celluar material could have exhibited definite damage: the normal osmosis of the cell would have been interupted by crystalization vs osmosis and dehydration. Histiocytes would have been abnormally shaped in the os, the bones themselves MIGHT have exhibited "stress" fractures if they were damaged as the corpse were "banged about" while in a brittle/frozen state (note: this would NOT be a condition similiar to the rigor mortis state!). Had Caylee been frozen after death, retained in that state and then dumped at any time other than the end of June date, the entamalogical and botanical data STILL has to be explained away by the defense! And nope, you can't "transplant" vegetation and pupa on a corpse to upset the TOD/DOD unless you're REALLY REALLY REALLY a genius forensic specialist in EVERYTHING and very very very DARN lucky to all that "faked data" take root and live!

Hi Joypath!! Loved your input in the Annie Le case!! I hope you stick around the Caylee forum, your knowledge would be greatly appreciated.