2011.06.13 Sidebar (Trial Day Seventeen)

[JenniferTx]

My thoughts on the duct tape are as follows:

I believe the duct tape was place on Caylee after she was already dead to try and make it look like an abduction.

I believe the heart sticker was placed on Caylee as a twisted sign of affection from Casey. In her twisted mind it was Casey's way of telling Caylee she was sorry for killing her.

 

[okiedokietoo]

Hit and runs are often not reported.

Unattended deaths are sometimes hidden.

So 100 percent of accidents are not reported.

Not all unreported deaths are murder.

Ok I will agree to disagree with you. Although 100% of the previously unused part of my brain - that is now filled with 3 years of released evidence, depositions, forensic reports, crime scene photos, cell ping information, search warrant evidence , party photos, Bank and Target videos, BB video, GA and CA hysterical grandparents and save our daughter videos - says the duct tape was put on PM and was not put on to stage an accident.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I think the duct tape situation is far too ambiguous, and I think the Huck ruling is comparing apples to oranges.

In this case we know the story featured a kidnapping story (whether it was true, or not). It is very possible, given the story ICA told, that the duct tape was nothing more than a way to make this look like a kidnapping. I think it folly to say 100% that there is no reason to place the duct tape post-mortem, when there is one reason (the kidnapping story) that is plain as day. Supporting that further would be the possibility of smaller hairs showing the wrists to be possibly bound, as well...again supporting a kidnap scenario.

The SA needs to decide, was it chloroform, or was it the tape? I'm hoping tomorrow is the final piece of the puzzle, but, right now, I just can't see how people can say the duct tape is issue is so black and white.

Who is to say that it wasn't both?? Caylee was chloroformed and duct taped?? That is what I believe happened. Doesn't matter which one actually killed Caylee because both were contributing factors. The chloroform was used to subdue Caylee... making it impossible for her to fight back... the duct tape was used to make sure Caylee never took another breath. Who knows what killed her first as both could have caused her death. Casey had to have known that both of these things seperately could have caused Caylee's death... putting them together was making sure of that death!

The State doesn't have to choose, imo. There is no reason why either one of these things were present other than for the murder of Caylee.

 

[4realtho]

You know too much from reading here The jurors probably have never thought of putting duct tape on to prevent the flow of fluids...matter of fact...IMHO, neither would Casey. Now if she put it on shortly after death to make it look like a kidnapping...she's still showing guilt about what she had done. Why would anyone cover up an accident?

The amount of duct tape used is what justified in my mind that this was a clear indication of homicide.

If ICA was devastated about the drowning and only put duct tape on Caylee to make it appear like it was a kidnapping, then why would ICA feel the need to use more than one piece of tape? Knowing the dynamics of the family, especially the relationship between CA and ICA, I could have possibly been swayed into envisioning a distraught ICA holding Caylee in her arms, sobbing uncontrollably as she softly places ONE piece of tape across Caylee's mouth. (of course I don't buy this, I'm just saying)

However, the fact that several pieces of duct tape was used and wrapped with considerable amount of force, completely around Caylee's head is confimation to me that this was a homicide. It shows that ICA was in a rage when she put the duct tape on Caylee. ICA had had enough and she snapped. Poor little Caylee didn't stand a chance.

 

[gngr~snap]

Many flights to FL come through Atlanta and from the West through Dallas -could it really be Mark H.? May show her intent to leave the state!!

exactly what I'm thinking. one more day!

 

[JusticeSeeker1960]

Agreed. Thorazine might not even be sufficient.

Oakley, this may be OT but there's been something nagging at me for days and I guess I've been trying to dismiss it! And, please set me straight if I'm wrong but, here goes!

OK, we know the "molestation" came up in the jail letters & we all discussed whether it was ICA's or the DT's idea to "throw that out there" knowing they'd be published for all to see.

During the proffer when JB questioned TL about this and TL said, No. Was I dreaming or did JB ask him if he remembered a conversation that he (JB) & TL had....can't remember the date but it was in 2011. I'm almost certain of this. Is there anywhere we can find out exactly what was said then? I'm thinking that after 3 years of dilly dallying, that was a last ditch effort to "explain away" her actions. The DNA testing of GA & LA, have ICA mention it in her letters and then ICA tells JB that TL was the only one she had told.....HELP!!!

 

[miabellamoure]

I do believe that the duct tape was placed BEFORE death. I am just not sure that Casey didn't do it thinking that Caylee was already dead--mistakenly. I do agree, either way, that this is first degree murder. I am just trying to alleviate my naive mindset somehow, I guess --I still have trouble believing in was intentional...and this little theory could/would explain how it was an "accident" and then the duct tape was put there.

Believe me, I held on to that theory for quite some time until I realized that Casey did not just place a single piece of duct tape across her daughters face and mouth BUT, that she wound that roll of tape around her daughters little face and head. The tape across her hair eliminated all thoughts that she had ever intended to place it temporarily...such as she had attempted an induced chloroform nap while she was out having her fun times.

 

[KMouse]

Yep - ITA. She was betting on it being just another unsolved missing child case. Eventually the searches would stop and the heat would go away. But in the meantime, she could make the talk show circuit as the grieving mother. She thought it would make her famous + she'd get paid for talk show appearances.

I disagree.

I do not believe ICA thought too far in advance. She is a habitual liar. She wanted "the good life". She wanted boyfriends and the party atmosphere.

I think ICA killed Caylee and thought that people would buy her Zanny the Nanny story and not question it the way they did. I wonder if she thought that her parents would never ever call the police on her.

I don't think ICA saw fame in her future, just a life with Tony or the next sucker to come along, and endless nights of partying.

 

[What'sThatClue]

Isn't there a current list of the State's witnesses? I could only find an old list online, don't have time to research further. Was wondering if there's a more current list so as to compare who's testified for the State and who hasn't.

Thanks.

 

[scandi]

Hi, Is this the general thread for the day or only for sidebars? I am surprised at this fingerprint witness as she doesn't sound very polished. It's like she has memorized everything she is saying!

 

[MissJames]

Dr. G said 100% of accidental deaths are reported and only if there is a reason to hide something would someone not call 911. MANY hit and run accidents that go un-reported are because the driver may have had a few drinks, the driver was on drugs, the driver was driving on a suspended license and the list goes on. In other words if the hit and run was an accident and the driver HAD NOTHING TO HIDE the driver in fact calls 911.

And by NOT reporting the accident you may then be causing the death. Still murder.

A child may be abused by a parent . If treated the child may live,untreated and the child dies =murder.

 

[MaryAnn]

Stacey Barker also a liar,party girl, family help in raising her baby,morphs for newest boyfriend of the month,cut baby's father out of Emma's life.She also tried to say Emma died by accident and she lied cause she was scared just like ICA.Loving mother in her own mind, she took the stand against her lawyers advice and she was found guilty of murdering her beautiful baby daughter Emma.Let's all keep our fingers crossed that ICA does the same.

Billy Bob Thornton's Daughter was convicted and sentenced to LWOP for the killing of her friends Daughter that she said was an accident and the child fell off the bed. Apparently she had a 3" fracture on her skull. this just happened a few weeks ago in Florida. I don't think they had half the evidence they do against ICA.

I'm so glad Emma's Mother was found guilty. I live close to where sweet Emma's body was dumped. What's with these Mothers? Geez... Such beautiful children just wiped out for no good reason.

 

[grammieto5]

In regards to KC being found guilty, does it matter how baby Caylee died. The DT has already said baby Caylee died on June 16, and KC knew this. So KC knew her baby was dead and she did nothing about it, wether it was her or someone else trying to cover it up, KC knew, KC is the mother, KC did nothing for baby Caylee. I think the DT is putting on this dog and pony act to try to get KC LWOP instead of death. I choose to keep the faith, the truth will come out, I don't care if someone else was involved, KC was baby Caylee's mom, KC is the one, the only one responsible for what happened to baby Caylee. The jury will see this and do right by baby Caylee.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

That could sure mess up some book deals and money deals if a father was proven.

BBM:

:waitasec: Then I say "BRING HIM ON" !!!

 

[susan1122]

Yes - and a subsequent FBI expert witness (Rickenbach) testified:

“It was not the most chloroform I've seen in 20 years,” Michael Rickenbach said under cross-examination.


And this:

Rickenbach acknowledged, during later questioning by prosecutor Jeff Ashton, that describing chloroform levels as high or low is subjective.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/news/2011/...ial-investigator-testifies-about-g-ar-235624/

banding.

Please, excuse the clip - done for space.

IIRC, Rickenbach also said he was surprised to find chloroform at all. I think he said he had never found it on a carpet sample or anything but liquid before. If I am remembering that correctly, I think that is a substantial point for SA. mOO

 

[Celt1997]

If Caylee had drowned in the swimming pool, as DT suggests...she would be WET! Duct tape will not stick to WET....duct tape was put on Caylee while she was DRY....Duct tape was put on Caylee prior to the drowning therory....thus debunking that therory.....
MO

And who is to say the duct tape wasn't applied 3 hours after she drowned, and had dried. Once ICA had come up with a plan to concoct the kidnapping theory?

I'm just saying that it is not as clear cut and dry as people would like to believe. Certainly there is enough circumstantial evidence to convict, but I don't think there is enough to prove anybody's theories as nothing more than theories, when it comes to what really happened...no matter how much we've convinced ourselves.

 

[sorrell skye]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but Vass was testing the air samples, and Rickenbach was testing the tire covering fabric.

IMO, the air samples prove that poor little Caylee was decomposing in the trunk of KC's car, not that she used chloroform to murder her.

I believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee was deceased and in the trunk of the Pontiac Sunfire for an undetermined period of time post-mortem.

I don't believe the State has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that KC murdered Caylee with chloroform, or even with duct tape, for that matter.

This has been a very tough trial for me to watch. I have cried, I have been angry, I have been nauseated.

Over these past 3 weeks, I have listened, I have watched, I have pondered.

At this point in the trial, the only I'm convinced of is that KC is a liar and that she covered up the death of her daughter.

 

[What'sThatClue]

exactly what I'm thinking. one more day!

Perhaps the cell phone company's rep regarding the pings? I think they're from out of state. Just speculating here...

 

[Softail]

Hmm... IS saying that tomorrow's witness is an "Expert Witness". I think it is the Botanist.

 

[Donjeta]

That's an old old photo, before they even realized the date was wrong (the 15th). This is when the tape was supposedly used. I'm wondering if there were other posters out there with the tape, which is why LE never found the roll. It was all used up by then.

MOO

Mel

Wow, so Caylee's drowning hardly registered as a blip in the radar for either George or Casey :waitasec:

Not only do they not know what time of day it was, they didn't even know what day it was.