4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #83

[Balthazar]

Anyone ever say when/what timeframe the GJ was gathered?

"Kohberger was indicted by a secret grand jury impaneled by the state on May 16, 2023, on four counts of first-degree murder and a single count of burglary. " Bryan Kohberger files court documents challenging indictment in University of Idaho student murders

 

[schooling]

From: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/061623 States Motion for Protective Order.pdf
View attachment 430136

One of them could have yanked it off of him

 

[Balthazar]

One of them could have yanked it off of him

Possible. I assume you mean he didn't notice her do that. But how did it wind up partially under MM and under her comforter? If she grabbed it and put hand/her arm under the comforter, how did it wind up under her? Any idea? If she grabbed it, I would have thought it would either be on her front or wherever her hand fell. It's hard to get something underneath you if you are lying on your back and grab it. JMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

I keep thinking about this: If BK KNOWS there is exculpatory information, then what is it? I want to list the alleged known evidence against him:

1. his DNA on the knife sheath snap
2. a white Elantra circling the scene of the crime with no proof it was his license plate or that he was driving it apparently. 3. His white Elantra which may or may not contain evidence.
4. his cellphone allegedly traveling towards Moscow in the right timeframe and then being shut off or put in airplane mode before it was over there.
5. an ID belonging to someone who lived at 1122 King Rd at his parents house.
6. DM saw a man about 5'10 wearing black and a mask over his lower face with bushy eyebrows
7. Wearing gloves in Pennsylvania and putting his trash in baggies and then in the neighbor's trash bin in the middle of the night.
8. Trying to contact women at 1122 King Rd via social media more than once

I didn't put the latent shoe print because LE has not said it was BK's or even that it is the size shoe he wears. We know BK wears a size 13 shoe because that is what he had on when arrested in PA.

Have I left anything else out in terms of the alleged KNOWN evidence against him?

I do not think they have exculpatory evidence, I think they are looking for it only.

Besides, one piece of exculpatory evidence would likely maybe help with just one piece of evidence, they won't find enough to exonerate him from all the evidence against him.

Great "propaganda" though, from the defense. Meaning defense has to give out a positive narrative - like all the publicity around BF's testimony.

2 Cents

 

[TL4S]

Possible. I assume you mean he didn't notice her do that. But how did it wind up partially under MM and under her comforter? If she grabbed it and put hand/her arm under the comforter, how did it wind up under her? Any idea? If she grabbed it, I would have thought it would either be on her front or wherever her hand fell. It's hard to get something underneath you if you are lying on your back and grab it. JMO.

Maybe wherever it was while he attacked MM, it got inadvertently shoved to where it ended up by KG as she was trying to get up from the bed and escape?

We're also just assuming MM was killed first. And that she was also under the comforter. Maybe the sheath was on the bed while he attacked KG, and the comforter and MM came down on top of it while she tried to get away.

 

[TL4S]

I do not think they have exculpatory evidence, I think they are looking for it only.

Besides, one piece of exculpatory evidence would likely maybe help with just one piece of evidence, they won't find enough to exonerate him from all the evidence against him.

Great "propaganda" though, from the defense. Meaning defense has to give out a positive narrative - like all the publicity around BF's testimony.

2 Cents

I still don't think it's any coincidence that this same wording was used in regards to BF..."exculpatory evidence." They said they believed she had it and likely the GJ was put together and held before the defense even got to NV to interview her. Jmo.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

It contained blood. First, they used something like luminol (different brand, it's in the PCA). Then, when those luminol (already invisible) prints faded, they used Amido black which enhances proteins found in biologic material, so that it helps to pick up MORE invisible footprints that the luminol missed.

When a person steps in blood, typically the first couple of steps are visible (or, more, depending on amount of blood). Then the next steps are invisible to the naked eye but visible to Luminol (or similar). Then, when those too disappear, bring in the Amido black. ( Amido black 10B - Wikipedia )

Latent means "not visible to the naked eye." Latent Evidence

Footprints are not left by anything but a foot, whether in a shoe (as with this one) or not. Human footprints are distinctive and can give markers as to what the foot inside the shoe looked like.

So, since the use of Amido black only works on biologic proteins and since Luminol had already picked up other latent prints in blood, they looked for more bloody footprints. And found them.

So unless they had a party AFTER the four students were killed, leaving blood in the house, the footprints came AFTER the blood-letting.

Obviously, they know exactly whose blood was on the bottom of the shoe (I predict it will be Xana's, given what we know).
And that's how they know that the print was left in only one way. If it had not been blood, there would have been no point in using Amido black and/or luminol for those latent prints.

There is no "somehow," to me about how the blood got out of the people's bodies and onto the floor, to be stepped in. But that's how there came to be a latent print. Prints made with water do not show up with Amido black or luminol. Only blood proteins show up with luminol (after enhancement with Amido black).

IMO.

@10ofRods Respectfully, do you happen to know if the AMido black kills DNA? I'm asking if they would still be able to draw DNA out after the AMIDO black has been applied to the bloody footprint?

 

[schooling]

Possible. I assume you mean he didn't notice her do that. But how did it wind up partially under MM and under her comforter? If she grabbed it and put hand/her arm under the comforter, how did it wind up under her? Any idea? If she grabbed it, I would have thought it would either be on her front or wherever her hand fell. It's hard to get something underneath you if you are lying on your back and grab it. JMO.

Honestly, IMO the description of 'face down' is largely inconsequential. The amount of violence, pure chaos ,and the ensuing struggle is likely far beyond anything I could ever imagine. Paramedics were reportedly getting sick at the sight of the crime scene. Some called it the worst they had ever seen.

How could someone even begin to predict whether an object on that bed, in that moment, with two people being violently stabbed to death and say "this sheath's orientation is wrong..." Everything should have been upside down and unpredictable.

If the defense wants to present even an inkling of an alternative theory of how the sheath arrived on that bed, in that orientation, they better be ready to offer evidence to support it. IMO they'll only go after the chain of custody, after the sheath's discovery...and they will do so ad nauseam...to no avail.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Honestly, IMO the description of 'face down' is largely inconsequential. The amount of violence, pure chaos ,and the ensuing struggle is likely far beyond anything I could ever imagine. Paramedics were reportedly getting sick at the sight of the crime scene. Some called it the worst they had ever seen.

How could someone even begin to predict whether an object on that bed, in that moment, with two people being violently stabbed to death and say "this sheath's orientation is wrong..." Everything should have been upside down and unpredictable.

If the defense wants to present even an inkling of an alternative theory of how the sheath arrived on that bed, in that orientation, they better be ready to offer evidence to support it. IMO they'll go after chain of custody ad nauseam...to no avail.

RBBM

Just a nit, but AFAIK, no paramedics entered the scene — it was completely unnecessary, MOO.

“Brian Nickerson, the fire chief of the Moscow Volunteer Fire and EMS Department, said police were the first to arrive at the home. The first responders from the fire and EMS department didn't go inside or transport anyone from the scene, Nickerson said.”
Police identify 4 University of Idaho students found dead inside a home near campus; homicide investigation underway

 

[arielilane]

Newly released court documents say DNA collected from Bryan Kohberger is a statistical match to DNA found on the knife sheath found at the crime scene. We knew genealogical DNA connected back to Kohberger's dad -- but this direct connection to Bryan Kohberger is new to me.

Full document: https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671321799009632256

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin

 

[NottaYutz]

This is really well reasoned.

May I go one step further? I don't think this was a pre-planned mass murder: I am convinced it was a pre-planned single murder. And had it been a single murder, it may have followed in his (studied in crime) mind that it would be investigated but surely not with the vigor of a mass murder. Many murderers make this miscalculation. They underestimate the effort LE and families and the media will go to discover the truth and exact justice.

I will go on record (in the record of my mind) to say that this was a case of intimate partner homicide, the only difference is that one party was entirely unaware of the "partnership", a partnership that existed only in the fantasy world of the other.

I don't know why he brought his phone to Moscow or why he disabled it in some fashion where he did (if it was to create the illusion of an alibi, why not turn it off and leave it at a likely running path and pick it back up there after a fake run, buying time off the grid?) but I do think he felt invisible and invincible. I think he had decades to master stealth. I think he found his white sedan to be as generic as could be, beyond notice.

Hotbed of a college town, crime of passion, LE would be busy looking at every jilted collegiate jock...

IMO that's why he didn't plan better. He didn't think he'd ever be found out. Virtually no connection to the victim.

Virtually. Oh, the irony. Digital trails become runway lights for investigators.

So does leaving DNA behind. The sheath might have been his calling card too, as it appears he wiped it nearly free of DNA. Let LE go down some military wormhole.

Forgive me for venturing into the mind of someone like this, but I think the (ill) logic might have gone something like this: I see her. I find out where she lives. I stalk her. Silently. She has no idea how close I've gotten or even what I may have klepted of hers. She's exactly the kind of girl who thinks she's too good for me. But I can get any girl I want. I'll show her. As well, I'll make her pay. I'll make her pay for all girls. I'll make her pay for all guys too, the idiots who get girls like this.

If he had one target, was in and out in under a minute, hadn't left that whiff of DNA, we might've seen a very different investigative approach, one that may have left him well outside the scope of it for a very, very long time. Long enough that IMO he might've felt slighted by another woman, imagined or otherwise, and somewhere near that campus or another, another headline...

JMO

I have always believed that he went in to kill Madison, and when he found her asleep with Kaylee, everything went to hell in a handbasket.

 

[I'm Nobody]

Anyone ever say when/what timeframe the GJ was gathered?

Sounds very much like part of what the defense wants to know?
3. A copy of any and all Order to Summons Jurors and Notice of Hearing.
4. A transcript of the initial seating of the Grand Jury.............
The summoning of the Grand Jury, The impaneling of the Grand Jury

Hmmm. Your initials aren't AT, are they?

JMO
edit added I'm joking @Chloegirl

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/051923%20Motion%20To%20Make%20Available%20the%20Record%20of%20All%20Proceedings%20of%20the%20Grand%20Jury%20Pursuant%20to%20ICR%2062.pdf

 

[Chloegirl]

I have always believed that he went in to kill Madison, and when he found her asleep with Kaylee, everything went to hell in a handbasket.

It doesn't matter that you do not have evidence to prove that. It IS one of the many possibilities. It will take a lot of time to know but it's not outside of the realm of how things unfolded and went out of control, right down to the roommates below hearing and being up and getting involved in something that was not initially meant for them. MOO.

 

[Chloegirl]

Sounds very much like part of what the defense wants to know?
3. A copy of any and all Order to Summons Jurors and Notice of Hearing.
4. A transcript of the initial seating of the Grand Jury.............
The summoning of the Grand Jury, The impaneling of the Grand Jury

Hmmm. Your initials aren't AT are they?

JMO

No, you're joking right? I'm going to just assume you are but I had not thought of the defense looking here for angles (that sort of sickens me). It hit me while reading today when things came together and if some of the initial local nerves had settled. I imagine a lot of people felt better after the arrest but it gets reactivated with each important document.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

<snipped & BBM> Wowzers

A traditional STR DNA comparison was done between the STR profile found on the Ka-Bar knife sheath and Defendant’s DNA. The comparison showed a statistical match - specifically, the STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if Defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/061623 States Motion for Protective Order.pdf

I was grateful for finally getting official confirmation that Investigative Genetic Genealogy was, in fact, used.

From the same link:

 

[Chloegirl]

I was grateful for finally getting official confirmation that Investigative Genetic Genealogy was, in fact, used.

From the same link:
View attachment 430196

I agree. I was commenting yesterday that I needed more information and even though I felt this deeply it's nice to have received it so I share your gratitude.

 

[Cindizzi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671345075711016961

[…]

The most recent filing is a motion for a protective order in the case, meaning an order to seal any evidence related to raw data involving the specific DNA profile and the laboratory documentation, and all information related to the creation of a genealogical family tree identifying any of Kohberger's relatives for privacy purposes.

According to this motion, an STR profile from the knife sheath was developed. An STR profile, according to the National Institute of Justice, stands for "short tandem repeat." An STR analysis can show a number of repeating protein "sequences" in someone's DNA that is specific to them.

"A collection of these can give nearly irrefutable evidence statistically of a person's identity because the likelihood of two unrelated people having the same number of repeated sequences in these regions becomes increasingly small as more regions are analyzed," the National Institute of Justice states.

Kohberger was given a cheek swab and it was compared to the STR profile.

Prosecutors said in the new filing, "The STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if the defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source." Meaning, the profile scientists developed is more likely to be Kohberger than someone random.

The affidavit also said the knife sheath was found next to the bodies of Mogen and Goncavles, who were sleeping in the same bed. The filing on June 16 now specifies that the sheath was "face down and partially under Madison's body and the comforter on the bed."

[…]

 

[Nichevo]

I was grateful for finally getting official confirmation that Investigative Genetic Genealogy was, in fact, used.

From the same link:
View attachment 430196

I agree @North_Idaho_Nony. I was skeptical that it was used. I humbly admit I was in fact wrong. Surprising that the FBI actually took over the genealogical profiling. MOO

In this case, investigators used lGG to begin the process of developing a lead to the individual who left DNA on the Ka-Bar knife sheath. The Idaho State Police utilized a
private laboratory to develop a SNP profile from the DNA on the Ka-Bar knife sheath. The
private laboratory started using genetic genealogy to develop a family tree, but after law enforcement decided the FBI would take over, the private laboratory ceased its efforts and sent the SNP profile to the FBI.

 

[Cool Cats]

I still don't think it's any coincidence that this same wording was used in regards to BF..."exculpatory evidence." They said they believed she had it and likely the GJ was put together and held before the defense even got to NV to interview her. Jmo.

I think the defense is blowing smoke up everyone's a@#.

I think AT's strategy all along was to try to discredit the GJ which she couldn't do if there wasn't a GJ. And then to file Motions that make it sound like exculpatory evidence is buried somewhere in those 51 terabytes of discovery.

I don't think AT wanted a preliminary hearing. AT knew there would likely be a GJ indictment if she waited 6 months then announced to the defense and everyone else that she was going to get exculpatory evidence by forcing a witnesses' testimony. Of course that pushed a GJ indictment.

I think AT never had any reasonable evidence to present in a preliminary hearing, BK would have looked guilty as sin if that hearing had been held.

Now she can make him look less guilty - which she is currently doing - she is a sly defense attorney.

2 Cents

 

[Nichevo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1671345075711016961

[…]

The most recent filing is a motion for a protective order in the case, meaning an order to seal any evidence related to raw data involving the specific DNA profile and the laboratory documentation, and all information related to the creation of a genealogical family tree identifying any of Kohberger's relatives for privacy purposes.

According to this motion, an STR profile from the knife sheath was developed. An STR profile, according to the National Institute of Justice, stands for "short tandem repeat." An STR analysis can show a number of repeating protein "sequences" in someone's DNA that is specific to them.

"A collection of these can give nearly irrefutable evidence statistically of a person's identity because the likelihood of two unrelated people having the same number of repeated sequences in these regions becomes increasingly small as more regions are analyzed," the National Institute of Justice states.

Kohberger was given a cheek swab and it was compared to the STR profile.

Prosecutors said in the new filing, "The STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if the defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from the general population is the source." Meaning, the profile scientists developed is more likely to be Kohberger than someone random.

The affidavit also said the knife sheath was found next to the bodies of Mogen and Goncavles, who were sleeping in the same bed. The filing on June 16 now specifies that the sheath was "face down and partially under Madison's body and the comforter on the bed."

[…]

I.E. as described in the CODIS and NDIS fact sheet:

7. What DNA information is stored in these databases?​

The DNA profile, also known as a DNA type, is stored in the database. For Forensic STR DNA analysis, the DNA profile consists of one or two alleles at the 20 CODIS Core Loci.

IMO , the same 20 Core Loci, although obviously he was not in CODIS.