4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

[schooling]

This is all MOO, but with no identified suspect, LE was doing deep dives into every potential aspect, it seems to me, and I'd expect nothing less from LE given the timing of the DD delivery.

Whether or not they found anything of interest resulting from the 12/6/2022 DD search warrant remains unknown, MOO.

Again MOO, but what that search warrant (and others) says to me is that they still hadn't identified a suspect. I remain in the distinct minority of those who don't think WSU Police spotting BK's white Elantra on the WSU campus was a big AH HA moment. We still have no clue how many white 2011-2013 white Elantras were identified in this area, and we don't know when the FBI expert internally revised the model years, MOO.

What we do know is MPD first put out a public plea for info on a 2011-2013 White Hyundai Elantra and/or its occupants on 12/7/2022 (and MPD & was quickly overwhelmed by tips).

MOO, but that suggests to me a couple of things:
-- they still had no suspect, hence the wide nets cast by the search warrants trying to identify one, including looking at the DD delivery coincidence, once the "usual suspects" had been eliminated;
-- the FBI expert hadn't yet revised his model year estimate;
-- and WSU Police reports on BK's white Elantra on the WSU campus were still in the extensive data churn.

MOO, but one of the reasons I so appreciate the discussions here is reading what others are gleaning from the same relatively small pool of what we know, so that's my two cents worth about the DD warrant & the almost unimaginable coincidence of the timing of the DD delivery.

Exactly this. Not fully exploring the Door Dash timing by digging deeper would only weaken their case against Kohlberger. Giving his defense team a reasonable alternative explanation thread to pull on. As that person was 100% at the scene near the time of the murders.

Of course LE is going to go all the way with DoorDash. Which was ultimately (IMO) the dead end they knew it would be.

 

[Boxer]

Exactly this. Not fully exploring the Door Dash timing by digging deeper would only weaken their case against Kohlberger. Giving his defense team a reasonable alternative explanation thread to pull on. As that person was 100% at the scene near the time of the murders.

Of course LE is going to go all the way with DoorDash. Which was ultimately (IMO) the dead end they knew it would be.

There is going to be electronic documentation end to end.
They might want to point out how many DD's were ordered in Moscow that night.

 

[Nila Aella]

View attachment 434303
How is it possible that there are no notes, photos or information collected from the autopsies by the 3 mentioned? Did the defense mean Sergeant Shaine Gunderson - not Gunnerson? Is Vargas is Officer Dani Vargus? Not sure about Tolleson. Why would there not be photos of the autopsies and notes about the autopsies? That just floors me. All JMO.

I thought they meant Gunderson when I first read it, but not sure.
IMO there should at least be notes and information collected. How could there not be? Maybe they just listen and trust their memory while they wait for the report.
The list of items that do not exist or that the State does not have is getting longer.
JMO

Because the observers won't be testifying about the autopsies. They aren't expert medical witnesses. The ME will be the one testifying.

JMO

If there are observer notes and the defense requests them in discovery, the State would hand them over or object (if they felt they were not required to). IMO, these are important to the D in how they relate to the investigation.
MOO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

HER name is Dr Veena Singh and SHE is in Spokane. We contract with Spokane County for ME services.

I have the utmost respect for Latah County’s Coroner Kathy Mabbutt. MOO

ETA link

Apologies for misidentifying her gender. I thought the earlier news reports said "he", but I'm mistaken.

 

[MyBelle]

I thought they meant Gunderson when I first read it, but not sure.
IMO there should at least be notes and information collected. How could there not be? Maybe they just listen and trust their memory while they wait for the report.
The list of items that do not exist or that the State does not have is getting longer.
JMO

If there are observer notes and the defense requests them in discovery, the State would hand them over or object (if they felt they were not required to). IMO, these are important to the D in how they relate to the investigation.
MOO

That's a big "if there are observer notes."

I don't see any reason for a CSI to take "notes" during a forensic autopsy. LE is there to answer any questions about the crime scene/victim the ME may have and also to gather any evidence that needs to be taken from the forensic autopsy to the LE lab such as blood to ensure chain of custody. The ME must remain as impartial as possible.

JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

That's a big "if there are observer notes."

I don't see any reason for a CSI to take "notes" during a forensic autopsy. LE is there to answer any questions about the crime scene/victim the ME may have and also to gather any evidence that needs to be taken from the forensic autopsy to the LE lab such as blood to ensure chain of custody. The ME must remain as impartial as possible.

JMO

IMO LE is there to gather additional information by watching the autopsy. The D request included all information collected, not just notes.

The discovery request said


The D would not know if any of these things existed if they did not ask. The states first response was not clear and the D needed clarification if they existed. The response this time is clear, these items don't exist.

JMO

 

[Balthazar]

Because the observers won't be testifying about the autopsies. They aren't expert medical witnesses. The ME will be the one testifying.

JMO

I cannot imagine an autopsy where LE is observing and
1. Evidence taken into custody by LE at the autopsy is not listed or inventoried by LE. Apparently they didn't take the victims clothes and personal items into custody nor the victims baseline blood and DNA samples nor any other evidence.
2. Evidence from the autopsies that will be further tested and reports to follow is not listed so that LE can make certain they get all expected information.
3. The LE observers apparently did not take note of the measurements of the wounds to determine if the weapon that fits in the sheath would fit the wounds and/or if one or more weapons of different sizes were used.
4. The LE observers apparently did not take notes of the ME's explanation for things they saw at the crime scene such as blood splatter on the walls.
5. The LE observers apparently did not receive any information that would help them with the investigation at the autopsies.

The ME's report would have been 10 to 12 weeks off at best. But the prosecution would have us believe that LE left the autopsies with nothing at all. Now that the prosecution has stated this for the record, if LE did take these things (which is one of the most important reasons they were there), then without written notes/inventory of what was taken by whom, when and where, the chain of custody for these items is not just broken but obliterated. I'm very concerned about this.

 

[U.N. Known]

I cannot imagine an autopsy where LE is observing and
1. Evidence taken into custody by LE at the autopsy is not listed or inventoried by LE. Apparently they didn't take the victims clothes and personal items into custody nor the victims baseline blood and DNA samples nor any other evidence.
2. Evidence from the autopsies that will be further tested and reports to follow is not listed so that LE can make certain they get all expected information.
3. The LE observers apparently did not take note of the measurements of the wounds to determine if the weapon that fits in the sheath would fit the wounds and/or if one or more weapons of different sizes were used.
4. The LE observers apparently did not take notes of the ME's explanation for things they saw at the crime scene such as blood splatter on the walls.
5. The LE observers apparently did not receive any information that would help them with the investigation at the autopsies.

The ME's report would have been 10 to 12 weeks off at best. But the prosecution would have us believe that LE left the autopsies with nothing at all. Now that the prosecution has stated this for the record, if LE did take these things (which is one of the most important reasons they were there), then without written notes/inventory of what was taken by whom, when and where, the chain of custody for these items is not just broken but obliterated. I'm very concerned about this.

Your points seem logical, but I have no basis for knowing if any of those things is usual practice. What I do wonder is if none of the above is standard procedure, what was the officers' purpose in being there? Observation has its benefits, but for an extensive investigation, IMO notes or other reminders of the autopsy, especially if the wait for the official report is weeks away.

 

[jepop]

This is all MOO, but with no identified suspect, LE was doing deep dives into every potential aspect, it seems to me, and I'd expect nothing less from LE given the timing of the DD delivery.

Whether or not they found anything of interest resulting from the 12/6/2022 DD search warrant remains unknown, MOO.

Again MOO, but what that search warrant (and others) says to me is that they still hadn't identified a suspect. I remain in the distinct minority of those who don't think WSU Police spotting BK's white Elantra on the WSU campus was a big AH HA moment. We still have no clue how many white 2011-2013 white Elantras were identified in this area, and we don't know when the FBI expert internally revised the model years, MOO.

What we do know is MPD first put out a public plea for info on a 2011-2013 White Hyundai Elantra and/or its occupants on 12/7/2022 (and MPD & was quickly overwhelmed by tips).

MOO, but that suggests to me a couple of things:
-- they still had no suspect, hence the wide nets cast by the search warrants trying to identify one, including looking at the DD delivery coincidence, once the "usual suspects" had been eliminated;
-- the FBI expert hadn't yet revised his model year estimate;
-- and WSU Police reports on BK's white Elantra on the WSU campus were still in the extensive data churn.

MOO, but one of the reasons I so appreciate the discussions here is reading what others are gleaning from the same relatively small pool of what we know, so that's my two cents worth about the DD warrant & the almost unimaginable coincidence of the timing of the DD delivery.

I agree with what you say about the rationale, reasoning and PC behind the DD warrant. In addition to the great points you make, I've also noticed that the warrant was sought on the basis that DD may have information pertinent to the investigation of the homicides, not the crime of homicide (link below). The latest sealing rationale of Feb this year is based solely on privacy etc so I think the lead/angle was a dead end. Moo. I'm also mindful of statements made by LE at various times that they were looking at the possibility of the house having been the target or a combo of house and occupants. The scope of the DD warrant going back to early 2022 from memory might be an indication that the warrant was connected to this angle. In any event, the constant refrain by Chief Fry was 'we are looking at all possible angles' and I believe him. Moo

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

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I think the investigation was incredibly complex and dynamic and at any one time there may have been various POIs though no definate suspect for some time. What I think may have have occurred - and speculating only here - is that around 29/11 BK may have become a POI, remembering the point made in the PCA about DM's generic description compared with BK's licence picture and the BOLO of 25th Nov for white elantras (no dates given at that point in PCA). I don't think it was beyond the resources of this investigation for a POI to be quietly looked into as other investigations proceeded - IOW parallel enquires.Moo

Imo, the defense will not have much to go on if planning to accuse LE of tunnel vision.

EBM spelling

 

[Nova]

Very interesting. Do you know what "Bates" means?

A "Bates stamp" is a device like a "hand stamp" with, say, your name and address.

Only a Bates stamp prints a number and has a built-in counter that adds one to the number printed with each stamp.

This allows you to go through a stack of papers with either no page numbers or non-consecutive pages numbers (such as a bunch of different court filings) and, in essence, give them "new" page numbers that can be referenced by either side.

I assume you are referring to places in the pleadings at your link that say something like:

"Bates 8233-8749."

The reference is to a stack of papers that have been freshly numbered using the Bates stamp.

 

[Nova]

I am glad the house is not being demolished because the jury may wish to go and see it and they should have the opportunity to do so. It’s not worth taking a chance by demolishing it now and then regretting it later at trial. I understand entirely that that the house is a constant reminder of the horrendous and senseless tragedy that occurred there and many people want it torn down ASAP. It is a pity that temporary screening or something like a termite tent can’t be put up around the house to make it less visible until it can be demolished as soon as possible after the trial.

Again, the jury may request a visit, but only the judge can grant a visit after conferring with counsel for both sides.

If a visit to the crime scene isn't scheduled in advance as part of one side's case-in-chief, then it is doubtful such a visit will be allowed, IMHO.

A visit to the crime scene sounds good and reasonable, but there are lots of problems with such a request, as we discussed earlier in (I think) this thread.

For example, by the time the trial gets pushed back into 2024, the house will have sat empty--and perhaps without running water or power--for nearly two years. Is it still safe for jurors, bailiffs, attorneys and the judge to wander through it? With the furniture gone, is the crime scene still representative of the way it looked on 11/13/22? What about time of day? Court won't be in session at 4:04 a.m. and no tour will be scheduled for that hour of the night/morning.

Etc. and so forth. One of the most famous examples of a visit gone awry was during the O.J. Simpson trial when, just before the visit from a jury predominantly made up of men and women of color, OJ's "Dream Team" took down all the photographs of Simpson with white celebrities, and replaced them with photos of African-American heroes and of Simpson with his darker-skinned relatives. For those who don't recall, Simpson's attorneys were trying to sell him as a loyal member of the African-American community, one who was framed by racist cops.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah, I find the notion that AT is playing word games in official court filings to be unrealistic. JMO

Really? I think that is the very definition of defense pre-trial strategy. = "playing word games in official court filings "
JMO

 

[gremlin444]

RE: the defense request in regards to the autopsy and the 3 officers' bodycams, photos, notes, etc.

<modsnip: no source link>

Again, legal wording (my sister worked for a state's attorney for 30 years, so I've had this drilled into my head over and over) is very precise and each word in the defense's requests are carefully chosen. Sadly, she's no longer alive or I would be able to ask her and then give you all her 3 page long rant about legal language precision and defense attorneys. The request stated "collected at the autopsy by Tolleson, Vargas, and Gunnerson." As in those items listed that were created during the autopsy only. Notes/reports that the officers made once back at the station would be entirely separate entities and would have been turned over separately from this line item in the requests.

All photographs, audio recordings of notes, logs of evidence and documentation of transfer of evidence, and reports created by the ME and their staff would come later directly from the ME office.

Interesting bit I found from the Spokane County Medical Examiner Quality Management Manual:

"While law enforcement personnel, forensic unit, and occasionally prosecutors may observe autopsy and body evidence collection, they are allowed no input into the inspection/examination process. These individuals witness, but don’t participate."

https://www.thename.org/assets/docs/4.1-4.2%20Bias%20and%20Confidentiality.pdf

 

[jepop]

RE: the defense request in regards to the autopsy and the 3 officers' bodycams, photos, notes, etc.

<modsnip: no source link>

Again, legal wording (my sister worked for a state's attorney for 30 years, so I've had this drilled into my head over and over) is very precise and each word in the defense's requests are carefully chosen. Sadly, she's no longer alive or I would be able to ask her and then give you all her 3 page long rant about legal language precision and defense attorneys. The request stated "collected at the autopsy by Tolleson, Vargas, and Gunnerson." As in those items listed that were created during the autopsy only. Notes/reports that the officers made once back at the station would be entirely separate entities and would have been turned over separately from this line item in the requests.

All photographs, audio recordings of notes, logs of evidence and documentation of transfer of evidence, and reports created by the ME and their staff would come later directly from the ME office.

Interesting bit I found from the Spokane County Medical Examiner Quality Management Manual:

"While law enforcement personnel, forensic unit, and occasionally prosecutors may observe autopsy and body evidence collection, they are allowed no input into the inspection/examination process. These individuals witness, but don’t participate."

https://www.thename.org/assets/docs/4.1-4.2%20Bias%20and%20Confidentiality.pdf

Yes, I don't think there's anything nefarious to be gleaned from this response by the State to the D's request - not in the slightest. Nothing Burger. Moo

 

[jepop]

Agree, i know the layout and trust jurors to be able get familiar with the layout.

The first and second floors make total house sense, the south side 3rd floor addition needs mental work to understand. An architectural model would make very clear.

A three D, physical model could be used in court if necessary - in addition to digital models. Moo

 

[maconrich]

View attachment 434303
How is it possible that there are no notes, photos or information collected from the autopsies by the 3 mentioned? Did the defense mean Sergeant Shaine Gunderson - not Gunnerson? Is Vargas is Officer Dani Vargus? Not sure about Tolleson. Why would there not be photos of the autopsies and notes about the autopsies? That just floors me. All JMO.

Gary Tolleson, Idaho State Police. See: 2022 Idaho Supreme Court (online) docs and news articles.

 

[Nila Aella]

Re: DD warrant

IMO it is mportant to remember that LE needed probable cause for the time period of the DD warrant ( 1/1-12/6) and for the amount of information requested.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20DoorDash%20Inc.pdf

IMO the scope of this warrant - both time period and information requested is enormous.
Why the information was important enough for such a scope won't be known until the affidavit for the warrant is released. True that the 6th ammend is not a reason for sealing, but who/what does it relate to? IMO the warrant was not simply to find out how many times deliveries occurred at 1122, nor just to check one delivery driver.

IMOO

 

[technicallymissing]

For those who haven't seen it, Gray Hughes has put out a video comparing the movements of the Elantra before entering the house (as described in the PCA) with the surveillance footage from Linda Lane. It's not very long, only 15ish minutes and actually watching the visual of the route the car took- exactly matching the times noted in the PCA- was helpful and really illuminating to see, even believing I already had an accurate grasp of the timeline of events from reading the PCA.

 

[maskedwoman]

Might be hard to find...(Van-like shoes at the Walmarts).

JMO

Walmart and Vans Settle Lawsuit Concerning Copycat Shoes

Vans initially sued Walmart in November 2021 for allegedly selling over 20 pairs of shoes that infringed on its property rights.

footwearnews.com

Vans wins temporary ban on sales of Walmart's 'knockoff' sneakers

Vans Inc has convinced a California federal court to block sales of Walmart Inc shoes that allegedly copy its designs during the duration of their trademark infringement litigation.

www.reuters.com

Guess I won't be finding knockoffs. Good for the Vans people. LOL But maybe something else with a similar sole?

 

[maskedwoman]

They are easy enough to pick up at Goodwill or rummage sales where I live.

Now THAT I could see. Pick up something cheap that you don't mind throwing away.