4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #85

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Shoe person here who has found myself studying the bottoms of my many pairs of shoes. o_O
Whenever I think of Vans or Vans-style shoes, I think of an athletic loafer. They are technically tennis shoes or sneakers, but they are different than a New Balance or Nike athletic shoe. Vans (and Vans-style shoes) have more of a narrow, flat bottom, with less "chunk" than a Nike running shoe, for example. I wonder if Converses had been considered, although ironically, they were originally a basketball shoe.
I guess what I'm getting to is, what about the footprint, other than the pattern, led them to call the shoe a Vans or Vans-style shoe?
I went down the shoe print rabbithole in the beginning of this. If they say Vans like, they are pretty darned sure they are Vans. I think they hedged their bet in case they happened to be a knock off that duplicated the tread pattern exactly. Less is more, Vans like or diamond soled is a safer statement. I think size and wear pattern can further drill down the print.
 
I went down the shoe print rabbithole in the beginning of this. If they say Vans like, they are pretty darned sure they are Vans. I think they hedged their bet in case they happened to be a knock off that duplicated the tread pattern exactly. Less is more, Vans like or diamond soled is a safer statement. I think size and wear pattern can further drill down the print.

Wear pattern matters.

If no wear then it is more likely the shoes were bought new to be used for that one night.

This was mentioned in another case I followed. The killer left shoe prints that had new tread on them - tread was not worn down at all - it turned out that the shoes were bought just a few weeks before the murders, specifically to be used that night then thrown away.
 
For those who haven't seen it, Gray Hughes has put out a video comparing the movements of the Elantra before entering the house (as described in the PCA) with the surveillance footage from Linda Lane. It's not very long, only 15ish minutes and actually watching the visual of the route the car took- exactly matching the times noted in the PCA- was helpful and really illuminating to see, even believing I already had an accurate grasp of the timeline of events from reading the PCA.


A decision has been made to allow discussion of the surveillance footage that is being discussed on Gray's channel.

Gray Hughes is a well established and trusted source at Websleuths, and the fact it is actual video and it appears to be in sync with the PCA timeline does not really place it in the realm of rumor.
 
Vans vs Converse
1689293999771.png1689294013792.png1689294105854.png
Vans, Converse slip on, converse laces
IMO these two soles would not be confused.
LE had the print for weeks before the PCA was written.
In addition, Vans soles are patented.

...in the late 1960s when several complaints over cracked soles prompted the firm to revamp its rubber sole design. Realizing that the simple diamond pattern it had used cracked too easily along the edges, the firm began to incorporate vertical lines into the pattern; this design was eventually patented as Vans' waffle sole.

 
A decision has been made to allow discussion of the surveillance footage that is being discussed on Gray's channel.

Gray Hughes is a well established and trusted source at Websleuths, and the fact it is actual video does not really place it in the realm of rumor.

Before the debate about the origins of the original video, I had already watched it in full. Gray Hughes does an excellent job of linking this video to the PCA and clarifying a lot in a very short amount of time ~ 15 minutes. That was helpful.

Watching the raw footage was somehow creepier and unsettling to say the least. I am not sure where this puts us in terms of truly understanding the entry and exit from the residence. But if you have any doubts, it clarifies a lot of what we don't know. I am always going to want more, but do check it out. JMOO.
 
Shoe person here who has found myself studying the bottoms of my many pairs of shoes. o_O
Whenever I think of Vans or Vans-style shoes, I think of an athletic loafer. They are technically tennis shoes or sneakers, but they are different than a New Balance or Nike athletic shoe. Vans (and Vans-style shoes) have more of a narrow, flat bottom, with less "chunk" than a Nike running shoe, for example. I wonder if Converses had been considered, although ironically, they were originally a basketball shoe.
I guess what I'm getting to is, what about the footprint, other than the pattern, led them to call the shoe a Vans or Vans-style shoe?

The waffle pattern, pretty sure.

And Van's are designed to resist slipping (they are skateboarding shoes, at least, that's how they are marketed).

Flat gives more traction on a skateboard. It denotes a younger person. They are priced for younge yr people.

I'm not as interested in the brand as I am in what they found from the footprint. Forensic anthropology has an entire subdivision devoted only to footprints. I was looking at a footprint just today (and looking at my own). I also have a few pictures of Vans footprints. SO much can be known from the various measurements/ratios of the toes/heel/arch of the foot. First thing that even a beginner can see is whether the great toe is 1) longer than the second toe...2) same size as second toe...3) shorter than the second toe.

And so on.

It's something that I assume fits Kohberger's foot, because if not, that's a big deal.

IMO.
 
I actually think that's a bigger play on words than what's in the official document. AT should have probably said "no connection prior to the murders" but honestly, this "DNA is a connection" response online was unexpected by me. IMO, she's referring to prior to the murders as the document was making the point that they don't know the prosecution's case.

JMO
Yes, if she meant they had no prior association before the early morning of 11/13/22 - that would be clear.
Obviously she intends to attempt to refute the cell evidence on prior trips to 1122, following in the footsteps of Iris Eytan in the Morphew case, who successfully made the FBI CAST expert look out of date, unsure and uninformed by asking questions in vocabulary from a CAST program that the FBI does not use.
 
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Vans vs Converse
View attachment 434534View attachment 434535View attachment 434536
Vans, Converse slip on, converse laces
IMO these two soles would not be confused.
LE had the print for weeks before the PCA was written.
In addition, Vans soles are patented.

...in the late 1960s when several complaints over cracked soles prompted the firm to revamp its rubber sole design. Realizing that the simple diamond pattern it had used cracked too easily along the edges, the firm began to incorporate vertical lines into the pattern; this design was eventually patented as Vans' waffle sole.

Vans are very distinctive, thanks.

A shoe expert can verify this which the State will do if they can find a reliable tie for a Van to BK.

Like if they find BK purchased Van shoes before that night and his purchase matches the tread and size of the shoe print, add that to the witness description, DNA, car surveillance videos, cell tower GPS tracking, no reliable alibi, etc...and it all adds up.

I think the FBI digital forensic investigators will find a BK digital connection to a King Rd occupant. Be interesting to find out if those ID cards were BK's cards or cards he may have obtained (from young women) under suspicious circumstances.
 
JL objection (6/22) was submitted after receiving:

STATE’S RESPONSE TO DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO COMPEL DISCOVERY: STATE OF IDAHO 5/12

By way of background, as of the date of this response the State has provided the following discovery to the Defendant:
l. Approximately 10,000 pages of reports and other written materials;
2. Approximately 10,200 photographs;
3; Approximately 9,200 tips; and
4. Approximately 51 terabytes of audio/video media and digital materials


Since this 5/12 response, the D has received even more through discovery.

They also received a hard drive in April

1689299287181.png

MOO

IMO, she's referring to prior to the murders as the document was making the point that they don't know the prosecution's case.

JMO
SBM
IMO too. I read this objection to mean that the Car and DNA (both sheath and IGG) are what the D sees as the Prosecutions entire case. JMO

JL writes:

No matter what came first, the car or the genetic genealogy, the investigation has provided precious little.

And,

In essence, through the lack of disclosure and their motion to protect the genetic genealogy investigation, the State is hiding its entire case.

Which happen to be things they were requesting in their motions to compel. They have the Cast and car information now by Order. The IGG is outstanding. And they already have the touch dna STR testing (he mentions it as touch DNA) on the sheath by saying:

Presumably, the Defense is expected to accept at face value that the sheath had touch DNA just waiting for testing by all the FBI’s myriad resources.

MOO
 
Before the debate about the origins of the original video, I had already watched it in full. Gray Hughes does an excellent job of linking this video to the PCA and clarifying a lot in a very short amount of time ~ 15 minutes. That was helpful.

Watching the raw footage was somehow creepier and unsettling to say the least. I am not sure where this puts us in terms of truly understanding the entry and exit from the residence. But if you have any doubts, it clarifies a lot of what we don't know. I am always going to want more, but do check it out. JMOO.
I had the same reaction and I didn't expect it. So unsettling.

It fits with the PCA. It fits with the timeline.

No question in my mind, he'd been there before. He drove straight there. He looped multiple times.

Perhaps there were lights on in the house so he gave them time to settle. X would have been awake ordering her food. K and M had been awake, texting and calling recent to that hour....

Chilling how many houses he drove by. People, feeling safe in their homes, IMO BK deciding who would live and who would die that night. I think that is the fuel of a subset of ... of whatever he is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, awkward, anti-social, detached, out of touch, both intense and numb, aggrieved....

The last loop, I think he saw the doordash vehicle and got out of the area quicklike, maybe he even watched to see it leave....

IMO this startling reenactment which aligns perfectly with the PCA shows how focused he was. Utterly udeterred.

He was in the house for even less time than I thought. More like 4:10 to 4:17.

He IS a case study in the criminal mind. How DID he choose his victim(s)? I can imagine him becoming less able to function in his real life (student/TA) as his internal script took hold. IMO this isn't the case of a successful man snapping. This was a snapper who quit holding it together. He was always a snapper.

He likely entered the house a full ten minutes after X received her Doordash food.

Sickening.

She was having her last supper while he was executing a 3 pt turn....

Xana represents every scary movie. Nightmare on King Street, nightmare on steroids.

I now believe that X got her food, ate it, and on her second pass of the kitchen, may have discovered the sliding door ajar, when it hadn't been before..... I do think it's possible that Murphy stirred, even just from the Doordash delivery, maybe prompting K to kennel or bedroom him, and at that time may have seen BK approach the kitchen slider and it was in fact K who said there's someone here.

Uncanny that there were two visitors to 1122 within ten minutes of one another, one harmless, one homicidal.

D's recall may be exactly accurate in the end.

First heard K playing with Murphy, but it was actually K putting Murphy in her room, perhaps to preempt a bark.... then K saying there's someone there.... K may have been more awake than M, giving her a heart-stopping split second of awareness, just enough for BK to have to respond more decisively, more violently, then striking M before she could even react.

All the while X is awake and moving around. Likely with earbuds.

I suspect BK heard her ... and encountered her, maybe he'd made it all the way to kitchen to leave and encountered her there -- before she could scream, maybe he silenced her with a knife to her neck -- I'm going to help you -- a real disconnect -- but I think it had everything to do with BK's attempt to control the situation, control X... this is when IMO she whimpered, afraid to scream but unable to suppress an involuntarily whimper. BK may have contemplated letting her live.... that's a powerful thing for certain annihilators IMO -- being arbitrary, godlike, picking and choosing who lives and who dies....

Four murders in about 8 minutes time. Un-un-unbelievable... except for ir did happen...

So calculated.

It's scary to think in some other city, at dark thirty there are others just like him....

Double locking my doors --

Jmo
 
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“Connection” is super subjective. Any social media accounts that are not explicitly “Bryan kohlberger” with his picture on it and him holding a sign that says “I am Bryan K!” can be dismissed as not being a “connection”. As the defense obviously intends to challenge/dismiss its validity and ownership.

Do we think BK was doing stalking with obvious BK accounts? Of course not.

Even the purported (and reported on) WiFi and Bluetooth evidence (literal “connections”) can be seen as not “connections” with the wiggle room that statement gives you.

Im not placing any stock into the defenses carefully crafted and selected PR court filing words.


MOO
 
I had the same reaction and I didn't expect it. So unsettling.

It fits with the PCA. It fits with the timeline.

No question in my mind, he'd been there before. He drove straight there. He looped multiple times.

Perhaps there were lights on in the house so he gave them time to settle. X would have been awake ordering her food. K and M had been awake, texting and calling recent to that hour....

Chilling how many houses he drove by. People, feeling safe in their homes, IMO BK deciding who would live and who would die that night. I think that is the fuel of a subset of ... of whatever he is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, awkward, anti-social, detached, out of touch, both intense and numb, aggrieved....

The last loop, I think he saw the doordash vehicle and got out of the area quicklike, maybe he even watched to see it leave....

IMO this startling reenactment which aligns perfectly with the PCA shows how focused he was. Utterly udeterred.

He was in the house for even less time than I thought. More like 4:10 to 4:17.

He IS a case study in the criminal mind. How DID he choose his victim(s)? I can imagine him becoming less able to function in his real life (student/TA) as his internal script took hold. IMO this isn't the case of a successful man snapping. This was a snapper who quit holding it together. He was always a snapper.

He likely entered the house a full ten minutes after X received her Doordash food.

Sickening.

She was having her last supper while he was executing a 3 pt turn....

Xana represents every scary movie. Nightmare on King Street, nightmare on steroids.

I now believe that X got her food, ate it, and on her second pass of the kitchen, may have discovered the sliding door ajar, when it hadn't been before..... I do think it's possible that Murphy stirred, even just from the Doordash delivery, maybe prompting K to kennel or bedroom him, and at that time may have seen BK approach the kitchen slider and it was in fact K who said there's someone here.

Uncanny that there were two visitors to 1122 within ten minutes of one another, one harmless, one homicidal.

D's recall may be exactly accurate in the end.

First heard K playing with Murphy, but it was actually K putting Murphy in her room, perhaps to preempt a bark.... then K saying there's someone there.... K may have been more awake than M, giving her a heart-stopping split second of awareness, just enough for BK to have to respond more decisively, more violently, then striking M before she could even react.

All the while X is awake and moving around. Likely with earbuds.

I suspect BK heard her ... and encountered her, maybe he'd made it all the way to kitchen to leave and encountered her there -- before she could scream, maybe he silenced her with a knife to her neck -- I'm going to help you -- a real disconnect -- but I think it had everything to do with BK's attempt to control the situation, control X... this is when IMO she whimpered, afraid to scream but unable to suppress an involuntarily whimper. BK may have contemplated letting her live.... that's a powerful thing for certain annihilators IMO -- being arbitrary, godlike, picking and choosing who lives and who dies....

Four murders in about 8 minutes time. Un-un-unbelievable... except for ir did happen...

So calculated.

It's scary to think in some other city, at dark thirty there are others just like him....

Double locking my doors --

Jmo
This video really puts into perspective just how long the gap between the DD and his last loop around the block really was. Pointing to the likelihood of an obvious coincidence.
 
I actually think that's a bigger play on words than what's in the official document. AT should have probably said "no connection prior to the murders" but honestly, this "DNA is a connection" response online was unexpected by me. IMO, she's referring to prior to the murders as the document was making the point that they don't know the prosecution's case.

JMO
That is certainly a fair interpretation but, language is to an attorney what a scalpel is to a surgeon. I would be very surprised if AT filed anything that didn't say precisely what she intended for it to say. I have sat in on conference calls while my company's corporate attorneys parse contract language down to the finest of frog's hairs. Just before my hair catches fire over what seems like a pointless tussle, I usually learn why that little word or phrase is such a big deal. ;) AT is clearly very talented. I believe her choice of words was specific and deliberate. I don't yet know why, and we may never know for sure, but I believe AT said exactly what she intended to say. MOOooo
 
I just saw the link to the to Black Vans slip ons didn't past the way I thought.

Those definitely look like creeper shoes! All black, easy on and off. I checked walmart's website and they do still sell a similar shoe in stores. It's only $16.98.


Is there a picture of the actual footprint? I can't remember whether we are literally limited to diamond sold or we're just assuming that based on the van-type description.
 
I had the same reaction and I didn't expect it. So unsettling.

It fits with the PCA. It fits with the timeline.

No question in my mind, he'd been there before. He drove straight there. He looped multiple times.

Perhaps there were lights on in the house so he gave them time to settle. X would have been awake ordering her food. K and M had been awake, texting and calling recent to that hour....

Chilling how many houses he drove by. People, feeling safe in their homes, IMO BK deciding who would live and who would die that night. I think that is the fuel of a subset of ... of whatever he is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, awkward, anti-social, detached, out of touch, both intense and numb, aggrieved....

The last loop, I think he saw the doordash vehicle and got out of the area quicklike, maybe he even watched to see it leave....

IMO this startling reenactment which aligns perfectly with the PCA shows how focused he was. Utterly udeterred.

He was in the house for even less time than I thought. More like 4:10 to 4:17.

He IS a case study in the criminal mind. How DID he choose his victim(s)? I can imagine him becoming less able to function in his real life (student/TA) as his internal script took hold. IMO this isn't the case of a successful man snapping. This was a snapper who quit holding it together. He was always a snapper.

He likely entered the house a full ten minutes after X received her Doordash food.

Sickening.

She was having her last supper while he was executing a 3 pt turn....

Xana represents every scary movie. Nightmare on King Street, nightmare on steroids.

I now believe that X got her food, ate it, and on her second pass of the kitchen, may have discovered the sliding door ajar, when it hadn't been before..... I do think it's possible that Murphy stirred, even just from the Doordash delivery, maybe prompting K to kennel or bedroom him, and at that time may have seen BK approach the kitchen slider and it was in fact K who said there's someone here.

Uncanny that there were two visitors to 1122 within ten minutes of one another, one harmless, one homicidal.

D's recall may be exactly accurate in the end.

First heard K playing with Murphy, but it was actually K putting Murphy in her room, perhaps to preempt a bark.... then K saying there's someone there.... K may have been more awake than M, giving her a heart-stopping split second of awareness, just enough for BK to have to respond more decisively, more violently, then striking M before she could even react.

All the while X is awake and moving around. Likely with earbuds.

I suspect BK heard her ... and encountered her, maybe he'd made it all the way to kitchen to leave and encountered her there -- before she could scream, maybe he silenced her with a knife to her neck -- I'm going to help you -- a real disconnect -- but I think it had everything to do with BK's attempt to control the situation, control X... this is when IMO she whimpered, afraid to scream but unable to suppress an involuntarily whimper. BK may have contemplated letting her live.... that's a powerful thing for certain annihilators IMO -- being arbitrary, godlike, picking and choosing who lives and who dies....

Four murders in about 8 minutes time. Un-un-unbelievable... except for ir did happen...

So calculated.

It's scary to think in some other city, at dark thirty there are others just like him....

Double locking my doors --

Jmo

Phenomenal post!
 
“Connection” is super subjective. Any social media accounts that are not explicitly “Bryan kohlberger” with his picture on it and him holding a sign that says “I am Bryan K!” can be dismissed as not being a “connection”. As the defense obviously intends to challenge/dismiss its validity and ownership.

Do we think BK was doing stalking with obvious BK accounts? Of course not.

Even the purported (and reported on) WiFi and Bluetooth evidence (literal “connections”) can be seen as not “connections” with the wiggle room that statement gives you.

Im not placing any stock into the defenses carefully crafted and selected PR court filing words.


MOO

Yes, I think the defense is like saying BK and the victims didn't know each other in person or on social media.

If BK trolled them and was a peeping tom on several occasions thru their exposed windows from multiple times driving by and circling around, then there would not be a PREVIOUS known connection to the victims.

What makes me sick is how many times he drove the route circling back... his obvious intent was to enter that house and kill someone...and he never chickened out or talked himself out of it like any "normal" person might do even if they had some weird fantasy like that.
 
Before the debate about the origins of the original video, I had already watched it in full. Gray Hughes does an excellent job of linking this video to the PCA and clarifying a lot in a very short amount of time ~ 15 minutes. That was helpful.

Watching the raw footage was somehow creepier and unsettling to say the least. I am not sure where this puts us in terms of truly understanding the entry and exit from the residence. But if you have any doubts, it clarifies a lot of what we don't know. I am always going to want more, but do check it out. JMOO.
Great video/re-enactment of the drive-bys. Agreed, it was quite eerie. It gave me the sense that in each one, where the car stopped for a few minutes in the back of the apartments he was watching Maddie's room. I came to the conclusion, and this is JMO, that in circling the area, he was waiting for lights out. I also believe, (again, JMO) that what has been referred to as the failed parking attempt, was the interruption of the DD driver.

Edited to add: It would be interesting to see the video footage recorded by the apartments on the times prior to the murders that his phone pinged in that area.

MOO
 
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I was never sold on BK targeting a specific person or people in the 1122 house, even after reading the PCA over and over and reading through all the discussion on these threads. Now, after watching the GH video and seeing the loops linked up with the PCA, I'm convinced he was after someone in that house specifically. He passed by dozens of other homes. Why 1122? I'm a visual person, and the GH video really made it sink in for me how creepy his actions were before the heinous murders.
 
I had the same reaction and I didn't expect it. So unsettling.

It fits with the PCA. It fits with the timeline.

No question in my mind, he'd been there before. He drove straight there. He looped multiple times.

Perhaps there were lights on in the house so he gave them time to settle. X would have been awake ordering her food. K and M had been awake, texting and calling recent to that hour....

Chilling how many houses he drove by. People, feeling safe in their homes, IMO BK deciding who would live and who would die that night. I think that is the fuel of a subset of ... of whatever he is. Narcissistic, misogynistic, awkward, anti-social, detached, out of touch, both intense and numb, aggrieved....

The last loop, I think he saw the doordash vehicle and got out of the area quicklike, maybe he even watched to see it leave....

IMO this startling reenactment which aligns perfectly with the PCA shows how focused he was. Utterly udeterred.

He was in the house for even less time than I thought. More like 4:10 to 4:17.

He IS a case study in the criminal mind. How DID he choose his victim(s)? I can imagine him becoming less able to function in his real life (student/TA) as his internal script took hold. IMO this isn't the case of a successful man snapping. This was a snapper who quit holding it together. He was always a snapper.

He likely entered the house a full ten minutes after X received her Doordash food.

Sickening.

She was having her last supper while he was executing a 3 pt turn....

Xana represents every scary movie. Nightmare on King Street, nightmare on steroids.

I now believe that X got her food, ate it, and on her second pass of the kitchen, may have discovered the sliding door ajar, when it hadn't been before..... I do think it's possible that Murphy stirred, even just from the Doordash delivery, maybe prompting K to kennel or bedroom him, and at that time may have seen BK approach the kitchen slider and it was in fact K who said there's someone here.

Uncanny that there were two visitors to 1122 within ten minutes of one another, one harmless, one homicidal.

D's recall may be exactly accurate in the end.

First heard K playing with Murphy, but it was actually K putting Murphy in her room, perhaps to preempt a bark.... then K saying there's someone there.... K may have been more awake than M, giving her a heart-stopping split second of awareness, just enough for BK to have to respond more decisively, more violently, then striking M before she could even react.

All the while X is awake and moving around. Likely with earbuds.

I suspect BK heard her ... and encountered her, maybe he'd made it all the way to kitchen to leave and encountered her there -- before she could scream, maybe he silenced her with a knife to her neck -- I'm going to help you -- a real disconnect -- but I think it had everything to do with BK's attempt to control the situation, control X... this is when IMO she whimpered, afraid to scream but unable to suppress an involuntarily whimper. BK may have contemplated letting her live.... that's a powerful thing for certain annihilators IMO -- being arbitrary, godlike, picking and choosing who lives and who dies....

Four murders in about 8 minutes time. Un-un-unbelievable... except for ir did happen...

So calculated.

It's scary to think in some other city, at dark thirty there are others just like him....

Double locking my doors --

Jmo
Wow, @Megnut! As I read this ... am feeling as if I am right there in a horror movie. To add using a knife seemed personal. Did he have a personal connection to anyone or simply rage or both? Definitely, rage. We will see or maybe we will never know the full truth? What a monster...

Speculation, moo
 
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