Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #175

[Megnut]

I think it's very possible KAK told and/or sold the things he acquired while catfishing young girls. The drop box mostly likely factors into his crimes, IMO...product and information.

I contend that the catfishers get catfished.

It's like this:

A child thinks she's talking to another child, say a "13 year old girl" (who is actually a catfishing man). She thinks it's safe. The 13 year old girl lives in a completely different state. She thinks. They "chat". They talk about boys, school. The poser asks about her school mascot. Harmless question, right? Wrong. Narrows toward an address.

Anyone with access to KAK's Anthony_S account could read along, in real or archived time. A city, a mascot, a parent's occupation, a favorite teacher's name, a park -- these are all juicy bits of data in the wrong hands. KAK could have been messing with Libby all night, on a hidden app, egging her on to go to the MHB, with zero intention of meeting her. But if RA had access to that conversation, he could have intercepted the plans. Hijacked them. I still think someone paid or tricked KAK into slipping a tracker onto Libby's phone. (I contend further that Libby may have been given a phone by "A_S" and it was removed from the scene. That's how Libby's videoing phone was missed. Someone didn't know there were two.) There are apps that have location access built in. That find a friend stuff. Super cool if you're a closed set of friends sticking close together. Scary as hell if it's pedos exploiting it.

When word broke that A and L were first missing, then later found murdered, I think KAK had a good idea how that happened. Even if he couldn't name names (because of the double blind nature of CSAM), he would have known that the murderer came through him.

JMO

 

[susiQ]

I contend that the catfishers get catfished.

It's like this:

A child thinks she's talking to another child, say a "13 year old girl" (who is actually a catfishing man). She thinks it's safe. The 13 year old girl lives in a completely different state. She thinks. They "chat". They talk about boys, school. The poser asks about her school mascot. Harmless question, right? Wrong. Narrows toward an address.

Anyone with access to KAK's Anthony_S account could read along, in real or archived time. A city, a mascot, a parent's occupation, a favorite teacher's name, a park -- these are all juicy bits of data in the wrong hands. KAK could have been messing with Libby all night, on a hidden app, egging her on to go to the MHB, with zero intention of meeting her. But if RA had access to that conversation, he could have intercepted the plans. Hijacked them. I still think someone paid or tricked KAK into slipping a tracker onto Libby's phone. (I contend further that Libby may have been given a phone by "A_S" and it was removed from the scene. That's how Libby's videoing phone was missed. Someone didn't know there were two.) There are apps that have location access built in. That find a friend stuff. Super cool if you're a closed set of friends sticking close together. Scary as hell if it's pedos exploiting it.

When word broke that A and L were first missing, then later found murdered, I think KAK had a good idea how that happened. Even if he couldn't name names (because of the double blind nature of CSAM), he would have known that the murderer came through him.

JMO

Very plausible scenario. I would only counter that it may not have been RA that had access. It could have been any number of people from the Delphi area or beyond. JMO and I know it’s not a popular one .

 

[TheVisual]

Does anyone have any thoughts at all on this "keepsake bullet"? I've never heard of such a thing. I haven't known many gun owners, but I've known some. Why would anyone want or have a "keepsake bullet"? Maybe a first hunting trip or something? Military funeral? How common is this? I can't imagine it's very common, but maybe I'm just not up on this and it's a "thing," I have no idea. When I searched it, it doesn't seem like it is. And from what I remember, it was in a wooden box in a drawer in the bedroom. I am still trying to figure out some reason why anyone would have a "keepsake bullet" in the first place. But I'm also wondering about the wooden box & the location of the bedroom. I'm just curious, is this some kind of "thing" that is a popular custom or tradition? Part of a trend?

I would say no, not a keepsake. Haven't you ever picked up something on the floor and just stuck it somewhere? RA or his wife could have found it on the floor and just stuck it in the box, maybe didn't have time to put it back in the original box of shells. Safer in there then laying around on a dresser. He could have been cleaning his gun and dropped one and it went under the bed and was found later. JMO

 

[snooptroop88]

I would say no, not a keepsake. Haven't you ever picked up something on the floor and just stuck it somewhere? RA or his wife could have found it on the floor and just stuck it in the box, maybe didn't have time to put it back in the original box of shells. Safer in there then laying around on a dresser. He could have been cleaning his gun and dropped one and it went under the bed and was found later. JMO

Agreed. I keep seeing the box referred to as a "keepsake" box, but it's unclear who referred to it as such. Also, it's implied it's the only item in that box, but it may not be, who knows at this point?

 

[mrjitty]

Here is a thought experiment to show why the catfishing thing can lead to a logical fallacy

Sure it's a big coincidence, but consider it from the catfishers perspective. From his side, this is a risky activity in terms of him being discovered due to unforeseen events. For example, there is a small but significant chance one of his targets could die (e.g car accident) and her parents see her phone content. No one would see that as a coincidence. Ditto, a (heaven forbid) school shooting. In these situations, no one connects the two things therefore we don't think it is 'too coincidental".

Now consider all the catfishers in America and all their victims together. There is IMO, a bigger and significant chance one of the victims will be independently murdered. As apparently may have happened.

This is where investigative theories need to be separated from evidence. Profiles etc provide investigative angles but they are not evidence per se of murder. I think we are seeing this with the Odinist theory. Even if one accepts there is occult staging, that is not proof against the supposed villains. Indeed one reason I think the Odinist theory is likely wrong is precisely because it did not find any hard evidence against any of the POI.

Logic generally warns against propensity reasoning i.e. this is the type of person who would have done this. However as a general matter of reasoning, disentangling probabilities, propensity, evidence of bad character etc can be quite challenging.

 

[mrjitty]

If some sort of punishment is not handed out for this behavior then the floodgates will be open and the legal process will be clown show that will take 5-10 years to get cases to trial.
Attorneys with such experience should have upheld the esteem of the court and alerted the court and the prosecutors when an error was made and discovery outline including the full legal names of MINOR witnesses was sent to a local social media content creator.
Attorneys with such vast experience in trial procedure should have known how to file a franks memorandum as confidential properly.
Attorneys trusted with high profile cases with sensitive material should have procedures in place to protect such material and not allow access to known or unknown third parties through neglect or otherwise.
Licensed defense attorneys should understand the scope of sharing strategy and have procedures in place to not allow individuals that have not been thoroughly vetted and under signed disclosures access to their work product or discovery.

I understand that attorneys and make mistakes. But this many serious mistakes by the same attorney on one case is baffling.
If there are not real consequences for attorneys that pull these shenanigans, there will be nothing to deter them from repeating it in the future.

I guess whatever ends up happening, this will serve as a bit of a warning to lawyers of all stripes about the need to protect their case files and being careful about discussing the case with 3rd parties.

I do get that in a big firm, you can always walk down the corridor to a sympathetic partner / colleague and bounce ideas around. Sometimes they don't even write down two units on their timesheet when you only spoke to them for 5 mins!

In a small practice, you don't always have that, and I think attorneys do need to be able to canvass ideas, including with people who are not attorneys and outside of their direct team.

In this case, we still don't really know all the details of how much access AB gave to MW, but there does seem to be a tension with giving work product / access to an informal 3rd party and the actual rules lawyers operate under. To my mind 'brainstorming' is not 'giving MW the Franks memo" as characterised by the D in the last filing. To me the whole thing of giving an outsider a critical case filing is simply bizarre and way outside the bounds.

Especially I think the prejudice to Allen himself is underplayed here. it appears his trial strategy ended up in the hands of the prosecutor, precisely because AB was giving it to an informal 3rd party. So that would appear negligent, even if an actual crime was committed by MW.

Hopefully this is all kicked to another Judge.

 

[FromGermany1]

I think it's very possible KAK told and/or sold the things he acquired while catfishing young girls. The drop box mostly likely factors into his crimes, IMO...product and information.

If the A_S account was used by unknown criminals (or one unknown criminal), who collected data for themselves and searched for their own special future victim, would it be logical, that in other unsolved murder cases re young girls (across states) this connection with A_S also would turn up? Did the connection already turn up during some investgation outside Indiana and we don't know about it?

 

[zh0r4]

I was not aware photos of the girls had been released to the public and/or leaked online. The defense did this? I'm confused, I apologize.

They weren’t. They were stolen (a crime), which the thief (MW) has been arrested for. MW himself said he took the photos from AB’s office without AB’s permission when AB was in the other room on a call/in a meeting.

 

[zh0r4]

I heard one YouTuber ask the question of what the odds would be that you'd have someone like "Anthony Shots" waiting for you, but you were suddenly attacked and murdered by a completely different "someone." It's just too weird for words, literally. It's too strange.

It happens all of the time unfortunately. Pedophiles utilize the internet to find victims, typically posing as someone else/someone younger/etc. Not saying that is what happened here-I wasn’t around during that time in the case (the anthony_shots stuff)-just in general. JMO.

 

[zh0r4]

Does anyone have any thoughts at all on this "keepsake bullet"? I've never heard of such a thing. I haven't known many gun owners, but I've known some. Why would anyone want or have a "keepsake bullet"? Maybe a first hunting trip or something? Military funeral? How common is this? I can't imagine it's very common, but maybe I'm just not up on this and it's a "thing," I have no idea. When I searched it, it doesn't seem like it is. And from what I remember, it was in a wooden box in a drawer in the bedroom. I am still trying to figure out some reason why anyone would have a "keepsake bullet" in the first place. But I'm also wondering about the wooden box & the location of the bedroom. I'm just curious, is this some kind of "thing" that is a popular custom or tradition? Part of a trend?

I grew up around hunting/farming/military and I’ve never heard of a “keepsake bullet”. I’ve never heard of or read about any cases where a keepsake bullet was kept-that doesn’t mean it’s never happened. Typically when I read about people keeping things from a crime it would be something like jewelry. AJMO

 

[mrjitty]

Out of interest:

In the US there were 17,284 murders in 2017. Est US pop. that year = 325m

So about 5 in 100,000.

We can adjust for different risk probabilities etc but for the sake of argument lets take that. It's very hard to come up with some kind of % for catfishing. Virtually everyone has been targeted by some online scam before they have been on social/email long. what to include?

But I think it shows the very rare thing is getting murdered in the first place. The likelihood of both things happening to me are quite small. But if we take the population of everyone who falls into a broad definition of catfishing - that population might be 20K+ instead of 1.

So i think there is a risk of assuming the 'coincidence' is too great because the framework we set can lead into a logical error. i.e. the rare thing of being murdered happened.

Hope that makes some vague sense.

 

[girlhasnoname]

At least he’s willing to give RA the presumption of innocence. That’s more than he gets here from most.

He did get one thing wrong IMO, that being his comment about JG. Obviously the SCOIN didn’t feel she was being fair when she DQ’d RA’s attorneys without following proper procedure and granting the P the top request on his wish list. Hence R & B’s reinstatement. She’s an experienced judge. One would think she would know better. And how fair was her denial of the motion to move RA without granting a hearing? I guess my and Lebrato’s idea of “fair” are vastly different. JMHO.

Why does anyone here have to give RA a presumption of innocence? This isn't Court, we are simply discussing the case and the evidence and actions of the attorneys which we are freely allowed to do. I don't expect everyone here to assume his guilt.

I was replying to your statement that his former defense thought RA was innocent when his actual words were “I think he’s not guilty or innocent because I believe the presumption of innocence is one of the most important legal theories that we have."

Lebrato didn't come right out and say RA is absolutely innocent, like R&B have done, which is what I was addressing and is what I find interesting.

He spoke of his own opinion of Judge Gull's reputation based on having worked with her for 20 years. How does that make Lebrato wrong? He is entitled to his own opinion, especially having experienced working with her directly.

The SCOIN unanimously agreed to keep her on the case, so it speaks volumes that they believe she absolutely can do the job or they would have removed her. They had the opportunity and power to do so, but did not. How does that make them wrong?

Her Motion to deny RA to be moved again does not require a hearing. Not all Motions to the Court are granted hearings, the Judge has the power to rule on them with/without a hearing. Again, how does that make her wrong?

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I'm confused, but freely admit it. Where does it say or imply in MSM, not SM or the FM, that there was a procedural error in the Chain of Custody for the bullet recovered from the crime scene?

All I've ever seen is that there were pictures taken at the crime scene, it was bagged and sent to the lab for testing and the ejection marks were found to be consistent with the SS gun that RA had in his possession, that he freely admitted he'd never loaned out to anybody, and that he'd never been on RL's property.

I know ballistic evidence is a debatable science, but the State of Indiana allows it to be brought forward in cases. A qualified expert will represent the States theory (already referred to in the PCA) and I assume the defense will have their own expert to refute it. It will up to the jury to decide the merit of the entire testimony from both sides.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

They weren’t. They were stolen (a crime), which the thief (MW) has been arrested for. MW himself said he took the photos from AB’s office without AB’s permission when AB was in the other room on a call/in a meeting.

And then AB confirmed that he did share information from the FM to MW and others. The photos were leaked to other people and on to SM Podcasters, etc.

We don't know the totality of this leak because the ISP has not released its full investigative findings that I'm aware of, and they probably won't. It might be under seal until R&B face their hearing for Contemptuous Behavior.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I'm confused, but freely admit it. Where does it say or imply in MSM, not SM or the FM, that there was a procedural error in the Chain of Custody for the bullet recovered from the crime scene?

RSBM

If there is an issue, they will bring a motion to exclude the evidence pre trial. I think there is no point speculating if there is or isn't a problem, based on speculation in the Franks. Like why was that stuff even in the Franks? Make the motion in court or don't.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Out of interest:

In the US there were 17,284 murders in 2017. Est US pop. that year = 325m

So about 5 in 100,000.

We can adjust for different risk probabilities etc but for the sake of argument lets take that. It's very hard to come up with some kind of % for catfishing. Virtually everyone has been targeted by some online scam before they have been on social/email long. what to include?

But I think it shows the very rare thing is getting murdered in the first place. The likelihood of both things happening to me are quite small. But if we take the population of everyone who falls into a broad definition of catfishing - that population might be 20K+ instead of 1.

So i think there is a risk of assuming the 'coincidence' is too great because the framework we set can lead into a logical error. i.e. the rare thing of being murdered happened.

Hope that makes some vague sense.

Libby and Abby were catfished by 2 accounts A_Shots and AuntEmily by KAK that we know of. Those have been proven to be associated with KAK and whomever also lived with him and had access to his devices at the time.

Libby did a factory reset on her phone the day (or two) before she went to the Bridge. KAK was interrogated and there were extensive searches done in Wabash River near his home right before RA's arrest. LE said they were investigating one of the largest CSAM rings in IN. I don't think it's illogical to consider the possibility that Abby & Libby were lured there by someone associated in some way with what was going on.

I also think back to the State Prosecutor mentioning still looking for 'any other bad actor' being involved when they held their first PC after RA's arrest. How does that make sense if they felt like they had their one and only man?

Could RA have loaded up his gun and knife on a day and time those girls would have normally been in school, wearing a fanny pack, jackets, hoodie and head covering etc, arrive approx the same time and Abby & Libby, catch them on the MHB at the exact time they were on the end leading to nowhere except across the creek just because?

It's the totality of all the pieces in play that is just too coincidental to me, is it impossible? No not statically as you pointed out, but I still believe it was planned meet up with someone who Libby thought was A_Shots.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

Out of interest:

In the US there were 17,284 murders in 2017. Est US pop. that year = 325m

So about 5 in 100,000.

We can adjust for different risk probabilities etc but for the sake of argument lets take that. It's very hard to come up with some kind of % for catfishing. Virtually everyone has been targeted by some online scam before they have been on social/email long. what to include?

But I think it shows the very rare thing is getting murdered in the first place. The likelihood of both things happening to me are quite small. But if we take the population of everyone who falls into a broad definition of catfishing - that population might be 20K+ instead of 1.

So i think there is a risk of assuming the 'coincidence' is too great because the framework we set can lead into a logical error. i.e. the rare thing of being murdered happened.

Hope that makes some vague sense.

I see what you're saying. Similar to car accidents. Fatal car accidents happen. The deceased have histories. Car accidents claim pedophiles, thieves, adulterers, cheats. Cheating, infidelity, theft, pedophilia don't cause car accidents. No causal factor.

But I do think this case is different than what you describe. It wasn't just that a victim was also a victim of catfishing, it's that there is such a compelling confluence of events.

JMO

 

[Salah11]

Libby and Abby were catfished by 2 accounts A_Shots and AuntEmily by KAK that we know of. Those have been proven to be associated with KAK and whomever also lived with him and had access to his devices at the time.

Libby did a factory reset on her phone the day (or two) before she went to the Bridge. KAK was interrogated and there were extensive searches done in Wabash River near his home right before RA's arrest. LE said they were investigating one of the largest CSAM rings in IN. I don't think it's illogical to consider the possibility that Abby & Libby were lured there by someone associated in some way with what was going on.

I also think back to the State Prosecutor mentioning still looking for 'any other bad actor' being involved when they held their first PC after RA's arrest. How does that make sense if they felt like they had their one and only man?

Could RA have loaded up his gun and knife on a day and time those girls would have normally been in school, wearing a fanny pack, jackets, hoodie and head covering etc, arrive approx the same time and Abby & Libby, catch them on the MHB at the exact time they were on the end leading to nowhere except across the creek just because?

It's the totality of all the pieces in play that is just too coincidental to me, is it impossible? No not statically as you pointed out, but I still believe it was planned meet up with someone who Libby thought was A_Shots.

JMO

He worked in a local supermarket/Drugstore where families shopped and no doubt talked and gossiped. He would have also had friends/colleagues who would have had family’s so there doesn’t have to be a sinister reason to why he knew kids were off school that day.

He didn’t live in a vacuum and seems to have been a participating member of society.

ETA - there is no Indication that they was in contact with anybody on the day they went out to the bridge. It’s not like if stuff has been deleted on the phone LE wouldn’t of found it.

Moo

 

[girlhasnoname]

He worked in a local supermarket/Drugstore where families shopped and no doubt talked and gossiped. He would have also had friends/colleagues who would have had family’s so there doesn’t have to be a sinister reason to why he knew kids were off school that day.

He didn’t live in a vacuum and seems to have been a participating member of society.

ETA - there is no Indication that they was in contact with anybody on the day they went out to the bridge. It’s not like if stuff has been deleted on the phone LE wouldn’t of found it.

Moo

Could very well be possible there is no connection.

I don't think we know of all the evidence does or does not have at this point.

MOO

 

[Megnut]

Libby and Abby were catfished by 2 accounts A_Shots and AuntEmily by KAK that we know of. Those have been proven to be associated with KAK and whomever also lived with him and had access to his devices at the time.

Libby did a factory reset on her phone the day (or two) before she went to the Bridge. KAK was interrogated and there were extensive searches done in Wabash River near his home right before RA's arrest. LE said they were investigating one of the largest CSAM rings in IN. I don't think it's illogical to consider the possibility that Abby & Libby were lured there by someone associated in some way with what was going on.

I also think back to the State Prosecutor mentioning still looking for 'any other bad actor' being involved when they held their first PC after RA's arrest. How does that make sense if they felt like they had their one and only man?

Could RA have loaded up his gun and knife on a day and time those girls would have normally been in school, wearing a fanny pack, jackets, hoodie and head covering etc, arrive approx the same time and Abby & Libby, catch them on the MHB at the exact time they were on the end leading to nowhere except across the creek just because?

It's the totality of all the pieces in play that is just too coincidental to me, is it impossible? No not statically as you pointed out, but I still believe it was planned meet up with someone who Libby thought was A_Shots.

JMO

I'm with you.

With one caveat. I'm not sure that Libby expected to meet anyone. Eager to go, yes. But I think she may have thought that the whole point was to get photos of Abby on the bridge. Think of it like a dare. Grooming. And next he'd get her to do something else. If anything, KAK would have, had be shown up there, been a passerby. He certainly wasn't going to pass for the A_S model! Had he gone there, he could have walked right past her and she would have been entirely unaware. Which might be exactly what RA did. If he had any associate with EmilyAnn or AnthonyShots or the drop box or any part of KAK's conversations with Libby or any access to an app (like Find A Friend or Yellow), he would have known where they were going, when they'd get there and visual confirmation they weren't there with anyone else. And he could have done that by waiting down the hill himself, waiting until they were well past halfway across, violated the courtesy rules and crossed the bridge toward them. Total stranger to them. But he could've given them a look of familiarity or even said nothing, something that just felt weird. Libby may have started filming him walking away from them, after having passed them, only to have him turn around toward them.

I really think the girls wanted to go there to get that photo of Abby on the bridge. The proof shot. Utterly unaware that anyone local would know or care they were there.

They weren't even slated to be there much longer than to the bridge and back.

Someone knew they'd be there. KAK. And somebody else acquired that same information and exploited it.

RA.

JMO