Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #193

[justtrish]

The SW return mentions a bullet also recovered (from a wooden box in the bedroom) in the search of RA's house as well as two magazines containing .40 cal rounds. (Page 14: Dozens of Richard Allen documents released, cause of death of girls revealed)

I wonder if they've managed to trace those bullets to the same batch and lot as well. Pretty damning if so.

I do wonder what that bullet in a wooden box in his bedroom was. I am curious if this was a box someone might keep sentimental things in or was it just a box that held random odds and ends like a kitchen junk drawer.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Serial killers often pose the victims. To do with the whole possessiveness that's often a part of it.

IMO, LG was posed for a few reasons;

1) Sexual gratification
2) To humilate his victim
3) To shock the people that would find her

AW:

1) Redressed because of a tiny amount of regret

JMO

 

[TTF14]

IMO, LG was posed for a few reasons;

1) Sexual gratification
2) To humilate his victim
3) To shock the people that would find her

AW:

1) Redressed because of a tiny amount of regret

JMO

Can you remind me where it said LG was posed? I just searched the PCA and Franks and can't find it. I thought they used the word "staged" and I can't find that either. Do you remember?

 

[iamshadow21]

Can you remind me where it said LG was posed? I just searched the PCA and Franks and can't find it. I thought they used the word "staged" and I can't find that either. Do you remember?

Both the words posed and positioned are definitely used in the Franks linked in your sig, about both girls, I'm looking at them right now. But that's the interpretation of the defense who wrote the Franks based on the pictures, not a report from LE or an expert, so it should be considered differently than if, say, someone from BAU used that word.

MOO

 

[TTF14]

Both the words posed and positioned are definitely used in the Franks linked in your sig, about both girls, I'm looking at them right now. But that's the interpretation of the defense who wrote the Franks based on the pictures, not a report from LE or an expert, so it should be considered differently than if, say, someone from BAU used that word.

MOO

OK, so I'm not going crazy. I wonder why my search function isn't working! Thank you .

 

[Ravenmoon]

I guess I can understand, to some degree, the re-dressing. Face down to control the blood flow?
I'm stuck on the dragging to a specific spot. Did he have something there that we don't know about? What makes it chaotic?

Does anyone remember just a few months ago that there was a mention of possible tripod markings? I can't recall the document, but I believe that there was one, so, I will add JMO, because I have leaned towards the killer wanting to memorialize the scene for self gratification.

Maybe he wanted to put the girls together for his own pleasure while possibly photographing them.


JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

OK, so I'm not going crazy. I wonder why my search function isn't working! Thank you .

It's in "the Crime Scene" section, twenty or more pages in, scattered throughout. Happy to help.

 

[TTF14]

Does anyone remember just a few months ago that there was a mention of possible tripod markings? I can't recall the document, but I believe that there was one, so, I will add JMO, because I have leaned towards the killer wanting to memorialize the scene for self gratification.

Maybe he wanted to put the girls together for his own pleasure while possibly photographing them.


JMO

Yes, I remember that.

IMO MOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

It is interesting that there is in fact an individual from the Delphi area that posted a pic to his FB (prior to the murders) eerily similar to the crime scene, however only one “body” in that pic. Surprisingly, local LE appeared to have “lost” it and the D had to travel to Georgia to retrieve this evidence.
Pg 48 of FM

FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf | PDF Host

PDF Host read free online - FINAL DRAFT - 9.17 at 6.30 pm - Delphi Franks brief.pdf - ANDREW J. BALDWIN

pdfhost.io

I am curious, have you seen that photo?
I have and I honestly don't see a link?
The caption on it states " When a tree falls in the woods."

It really doesn't feel like a cooy of what we have learned about the actual crime scene

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Can you remind me where it said LG was posed? I just searched the PCA and Franks and can't find it. I thought they used the word "staged" and I can't find that either. Do you remember?

I don't. Sorry that I can't be of more assistance.

I can refer you to RLS probable cause affidavit, but off hand, I don't recall what was stated.

 

[Megnut]

Still behind...

What could RA have viewed from the first platform?

The crime scene?
The trail?
Private property?
Suitable creek crossing?
Parking lots or access roads?

An actual phone screen? Was he tracking stocks (human commodities) or fish (in a barrel)? Did he have a way to watch them as they drew near? Was he waiting for them to emerge? Timing. Did he wait on the platform, ready to walk toward them?

And what did he say or do?

Libby communicated something to Abby. Telegraphically. For Abby to pick up the vibe -- is he behind me? She already knew who HE was so he must have been memorable...creepy memorable -- is it THAT guy? It's THAT GUY, isn't it?

Did he say something to them or to the air as they passed him by?
Call them by name?
Say something cryptic? Enjoying your last day? Be careful on the bridge; you don't want to die.

The real heroism is that they managed to keep that phone hidden. While facing terror.

Geez, he could have pulled his mask up or down which alone could have been creepy as hell.

Why was he on that platform? The timing is scary precise.

JMO

 

[iamshadow21]

Still behind...

What could RA have viewed from the first platform?

The crime scene?
The trail?
Private property?
Suitable creek crossing?
Parking lots or access roads?

And actual phone screen? Was he tracking stocks (human commodities) or fish (in a barrel)? Did he have a way to watch them as they drew near? Was he waiting for them to emerge? Timing. Did he wait on the platform, ready to walk toward them?

And what did he say or do?

Libby communicated something to Abby. Telegraphically. For Abby to pick up the vibe-- id he behind me? She already knew who HE was so so he must have been memorable...creepy memorable-- is it THAT guy? It's THAT GUY, isn't it?

Did he day something to them or to the air as they passed him by?
Call them by name?
Say something cryptic? Enjoying your last day? Be careful on the bridge; you don't want to die.

The real heroism is that they managed to keep that phone hidden. While facing terror.

Geez, he could have pulled his mask up or down which alone could have been creepy as hell.

Why was he on that platform? The timing is scary precise.

JMO

Precise, or just a case of everything aligning when he had the nerve.

We have no idea how many times he went out with what happened in mind before, or after, and for some reason or another, nothing happened. No potential victim caught his eye. Too many other people around. The weather turned. His free time disappeared because of unexpected family or work commitments. He saw someone he wanted, but didn't have a weapon on him or didn't feel confident. Any number of things.

MOO

 

[statt#1]

Oh how many of us studied the video's, the terrain, the trails (on both sides of Deer Creek), the high ground, the visibility (I recall RL standing up near the cemetery and pointing out the railroad bridge through the trees), the old quarry, distances from here to there, hunting tree stands, stuff hanging in the trees, stuff on the ground, cabins nearby, the driveway beneath the bridge, the vacant home, who lived there, the meat packing plant, the boots, BG possibly hiding under the bridge on a platform and popping up after the girls walked by on the bridge, the national billboard campaign, truckers, serial killers, disguises, you name it etc. etc. ad nauseum!

One photo always interested me, and it was this investigator studying the bank of the stream, opinions at the time were that he was looking at where the girls, and BG may have scaled the bank after crossing the creek.

UPDATED: Foul play suspected after bodies found along Deer Creek in Delphi; vigil held

DELPHI — Police found two bodies on the edge of Deer Creek in Delphi around midday Tuesday after hundreds of volunteers had spent the morning scouring the region for two

www.pharostribune.com

 

[Arkay]

I wonder what sort of breakdown a guilty verdict may have on him if it comes to this? Going to be a very interesting trial and conclusion imo.

Nothing comparable to what Abby and Libby endured when they began to comprehend what was happening to them.

Nothing comparable to what their families have endured ever since.

My belief is that RA is the one, so I don’t really care about his emotional distress. If he was part of a ring, going after young girls, I still don’t care.

I never forget the part that is very conspicuous to me, beyond the video, which is the desperate attempt by the D to quash the SW. No one who is innocent has anything to fear from a search of his or her home.

IMO

 

[sunshineray]

I find blood spatter interesting in a way. I tried to learn how thin blood would spatter versus thick blood OR if it even made a difference. Didn't find much of value.

"Chaotic scene...impossible to recreate." What on earth? That goes way beyond what we know: bodies, branches, leaves and a piece of rope. Poor, poor girls.

Such chaos really bolsters the description of muddy and bloody. We know from the blood testimony there were numerous blood pools in the area, drag marks, leaves and branches moved. MO

 

[Yemelyan]

Below is a snip from the article linked. Do you have any idea if/how no heat or refrigeration would affect a body temperature? The article doesn't say when those problems began so it may be a non-issue in this case. I'm just curious.

New Coroner copes with leftover problems - Carroll County Comet

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the...

www.carrollcountycomet.com

Carroll County Council members heard from Coroner Kristen Enoch about the situation she inherited from former Coroner Jordan Cree. She said the morgue has no heat, the refrigeration system does not work and the van used to transport bodies is old; the anti-lock brakes do not work nor do the airbags and it possibly needs a wheel bearing. In addition, Enoch said there are outstanding bills, one from last February, which should be paid immediately. She said the department’s records, which she should use for background research, do not seem to be accurate.

MOO, this would have been a non issue in the Delphi case. The ambient outdoor temperatures the victims had been in overnight was going to be the main and deciding factor. Just speculation but I doubt they spent any time in the Carroll County morgue before being transported to Terre Haute for autopsy based on the timing of the press conferences etc.

 

[justtrish]

Still behind...

What could RA have viewed from the first platform?

The crime scene?
The trail?
Private property?
Suitable creek crossing?
Parking lots or access roads?

An actual phone screen? Was he tracking stocks (human commodities) or fish (in a barrel)? Did he have a way to watch them as they drew near? Was he waiting for them to emerge? Timing. Did he wait on the platform, ready to walk toward them?

And what did he say or do?

Libby communicated something to Abby. Telegraphically. For Abby to pick up the vibe -- is he behind me? She already knew who HE was so he must have been memorable...creepy memorable -- is it THAT guy? It's THAT GUY, isn't it?

Did he say something to them or to the air as they passed him by?
Call them by name?
Say something cryptic? Enjoying your last day? Be careful on the bridge; you don't want to die.

The real heroism is that they managed to keep that phone hidden. While facing terror.

Geez, he could have pulled his mask up or down which alone could have been creepy as hell.

Why was he on that platform? The timing is scary precise.

JMO

If we look at what RA said he did. Walked out to the first platform... looking at fish. Then he sat on the bench. I am guessing BB saw him on the bridge before turning back to head to her car. She passed Abby and Libby as they headed toward the bridge. So did RA leave the first platform and come back to the trail and sit on the bench and maybe the girls passed the bench and him when they were walking. They head out on the bridge maybe thinking he is older and wouldn't walk on the bridge. Maybe that is what caused them to walk all the way across vs just hanging out on the end close to the trail. They cross over thinking they will get away from the creepy guy on the bench and then they see him crossing it.

THAT would be enough for me as an adult to have my alarm bells ringing. I would definately feel like I would be trapped on that side and definately not want to pass this guy to head back toward the trail so I'd likely be uneasy going off the bridge on the other side and not knowing where to run/go if he was going to do something. I do think this could be what caused Libby to start recording. It was likely unsettling for them once he was crossing the bridge toward them. Maybe they assumed he's older and wouldn't walk on that bridge.. so when he did, it was alarming to them.

This makes my heart race a bit just typing it out and imagining the scenario and how scared they had to be. I sure wish they would have just taken off running when he was still half way across the bridge. I wish they would have known their instincts were right and he was out to harm them. I wish so much those innocent girls had a chance to get away from the evil that was walking toward them.

 

[justtrish]

MOO, this would have been a non issue in the Delphi case. The ambient outdoor temperatures the victims had been in overnight was going to be the main and deciding factor. Just speculation but I doubt they spent any time in the Carroll County morgue before being transported to Terre Haute for autopsy based on the timing of the press conferences etc.

I was looking at the media thread for this case from day 1 and I found this early article with a good timeline. Just click through the photos and they have various day/time for key details.

DELPHI TIMELINE: Disappearance and murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams

The mystery surrounding a double murder continues over a month after the bodies of Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, were found. </p><p><strong>MORE </strong>| <a…

www.wrtv.com

Feb 14th 12:45 2 bodies found believed to be Abby and Libby.
Feb 15th 2:45 Autopsy done earlier in the day and confirmed to be Abby and Libby.
Feb 15th 7pm - photo of man on bridge released.. would like to speak to him to see what he might have seen
Feb 19th 1:15pm announced photo is of a person considered a suspect
Feb 22nd they announce the photo released was taken from Libby's phone.

So it seems from the time the girls were found till the autopsy was complete was around 24 hours.

 

[justtrish]

Map I am bringing over from the media thread. It is created by @skibaboo

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

October 2022 UPDATE - THEY GOT HIM! Indiana man, 50, arrested on murder charges in 2017 killings of 2 teenage girls Richard M. Allen, of Delphi, was arrested on two counts of murder, police said. Abigail “Abby” Williams, 13, and Liberty “Libby” German, 14, vanished while hiking in Delphi, their...

www.google.com

Click each little icon and you can see photos. One photo they have is of searchers in the water on 2/14. It shows the location of the photos Libby took and where they were found. I found it helpful to see the terrain, the flow and where it all happened.

 

[TTF14]

Such chaos really bolsters the description of muddy and bloody. We know from the blood testimony there were numerous blood pools in the area, drag marks, leaves and branches moved. MO

That must have been the "reasoning" behind altering/embellishing SC's description (changing it from just "muddy" to "muddy and bloody") of the man with the tan coat (not blue) that she saw walking down the road.

IMO

Memorandum in Support of Motion for Franks Hearing.pdf

drive.google.com